11JAN2018 - When an SBR isn’t an SBR:

Smoothbore?

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Speculation on SSD is that it is a binary only trigger.  Because it fires more than one round with each pull of the trigger, it is not a rifle. But because it only fires one round with each "action" of the trigger, it is not a machine gun. 

SSD confirmed it is not smoothbore.

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I expect their booth will be crowded in a week and a half.

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Mark

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 Interesting and very curious about how it's not a rifle, SBR, non-NFA etc. Also, who and what is Franklin Armory? Do they and there products have a good rep in the community and industry overall?  No matter in certain places as it will be banned in Ca, MA, MD, NY, Ct, D.C. and a myraid of "free" Cities/Municipalities.

ggammell posted:

how long until some tries to put a bump stick on it?

If you’re good on the binary trigger, you’ll be faster with it alone than the bump stock. They claim or used to claim up to 800 RPM IIRC. 

There is an LF member who works for them. He doesn’t post a lot and may not be aware of this thread. 

If I find one of my PM’s to him I’ll ping him to this thread. 

Mojo/Mark
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SoTex posted:

Someone explain how they got around NFA, please?

I’m not sure I’m understanding the legal eccentricities of this...

But, if it’s capable of being equipped with a standard trigger, it might be worthy of interest (if reputably manufactured).

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Knight posted:

I'm trying to guess what "NRS" is short for .... "Non Resetting System" ? "Non Regulated System"? .... I think whatever it stands for is their loophole find.

One other guess I saw was "Not a Rifle or Shotgun." 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

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Does it fire as the trigger is released rather than pulled? However they do it I am intrigued. It remains to be seen though whether it will have any practical purpose other than to give the ATF nightmares.

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shoobe01 posted:
Knight posted:

I'm trying to guess what "NRS" is short for .... "Non Resetting System" ? "Non Regulated System"? .... I think whatever it stands for is their loophole find.

One other guess I saw was "Not a Rifle or Shotgun." 

Non-Rifled Spin?  Some speculation that there is wiggle room in definitions based on rifle/shotgun language.  If it's just the trigger, wouldn't it have to be non-removable?

In any case, given that there are few advantages to this particular size that are not available with a "pistol" AR, it may not be for everyone, especially if the "work around" technology is quirky or requires an unacceptable trade-off.  Given that a SBR stamp is just $200 over the weapon cost, this new gun would have to be priced similarly, otherwise what is not having to wait for an approval actually worth?  To some it might be worth a lot, to other maybe not.  I just hope that like bumpfire stocks and pistol braces, this doesn't result in extra scrutiny, ambiguous opinion letters, tightened interpretations, or worse.  It does stand as stark proof that most existing gun laws are nonsense because intent is hard to interpret, legislate and enforce.

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

MCorbin posted:

Does it fire as the trigger is released rather than pulled? However they do it I am intrigued. It remains to be seen though whether it will have any practical purpose other than to give the ATF nightmares.

If it is the Binary trigger it fires on both the press and the release. 

If I recall correctly the Binary trigger does have a safety mechanism that allows you to deactivate the release fire portion once you have fired a round thru the press portion.  Not sure if that is something that can be permanently employed to make it essentially a standard trigger. 

Mojo/Mark
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If you look closely at the somewhat blurry photo, the red piece above the selector says "safe" "semi" "binary" or appears to. 

Then again that red sticker thing looks temporary and could be just on there to throw us off? 

 

I like any and all attempts to push the NFA buttons. 

 

 

 

 

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LobsterClaw207 posted:

If you look closely at the somewhat blurry photo, the red piece above the selector says "safe" "semi" "binary" or appears to. 

Then again that red sticker thing looks temporary and could be just on there to throw us off? 

 

I like any and all attempts to push the NFA buttons. 

I was just taking note of that.

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I think the trigger is a red herring.  They already have it for sale, and it comes with the new selector marking plate/sticker.  I think it's just part of the Reformation firearm, but NOT the tech that they are relying on to bypass existing NFA classifications.

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

Oldcoast posted:

Non rifled barrel.  The giveaway are in the bullet points.  Not a rifle, not a shotgun. 

“Rifle,” in this case, I believe is exclusively in reference to the legal definition only.

Franklin  has already confirmed that the barrel is rifled.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Some are guessing that it's due to the definitions. That a length over 26" negates the SBR definition,and a barrel under 16" doesn't fit rifle. 

In some ways it makes sense, if you think of guns like the keltec cmr- length under 26" but barrel over 16"- it might fit in a similar framework.

It's not loopholery, it's following the letter of the law and it works against people far more than for.

libertarian45 posted:

I think the giveaway is in the legal definition of "...to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single PULL of the trigger."

Since the Franklin Armory 'binary trigger' fires with a pull AND a release, it does not fit that legal definition alone.

Therfore, a FIREARM.

Not a rifle, Not a shotgun, Not a Pistol.

Nice buzz its creating leading up to SHOT though.

 

 

~Will

 




 

 

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libertarian45 posted:

Great video, and he addressed my question as to the semi auto setting. My one take away is that ATF rules are absolutely senseless.

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4102Burke posted:
libertarian45 posted:

Great video, and he addressed my question as to the semi auto setting. My one take away is that ATF rules are absolutely senseless.

100% truth.  Many of their agency field people cannot make sense of the regulations, and legal opinions.

The 'Make America Great Again' administration has effectively put the REAL fear of budget funding being cut to agencies even being perceived as issuing MORE regulation without redacting & removing previous regulations!

I absolutely LOVE the interpreting of MORE freedoms instead of previous administration'S' (very plural, GOP & DEM) that allowed the beaurocratic interpretations of RESTRICTING of AMERICAN freedoms.

~Will

 




 

 

   Anybody can blow something up, but to disarm anothers bomb, this is when talent, skill, bravery & LUCK will all determine "Success or Failure".  

 

Location: UTAH              Joined: 2003

I work with lawyers all the time, but most people don't, so they don't understand how thing work.  In a simplified sense, the law, and how lawyers craft the laws and rules is like the interchange between a parent and a 4 year old, and both are lawyers.  The parent lawyer states a rule (law).  The 4 year old lawyer immediately starts looking for the loopholes.  When they successfully exploit the loophole, the lawyer parent then elaborates on the language of the rule and seeks to eliminate the loophole.

Since the beginning of language, people have sought to craft language without loopholes and other people have persisted in finding loopholes.  In the US at least, the party that crafts the contract, law, etc., gets the short end of the stick when somebody successfully argues an ambiguity in the language because if it is ambiguous, it is, or is supposed to be, resolved in favor of the party that did not write the ambiguous language.  It becomes even more complex when the person writing the rule or law has to work around a higher law, such as the Constitution.  Just think 4 year old arguments about why you said they couldn't have a (singular) cookie so grabbing three of them didn't violate the rule.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

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So how hard would it be for the ATF to get the wording change from 'pull' of the trigger' to 'action' or 'movement' of the trigger?

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It is statutory. 26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions, (c) Rifle, 

"...a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger..."

etc etc. 

Congress would have to amend the law, no? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

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I believe the exception comes from the Reformation has a minimum OAL of at least 26 inches. An AR with an 11.5" barrel and carbine RE has an OAL that comes in just a tick over 26".

 

Look up the letter the ATF wrote for Franklin Armory concerning an AR pistol with a vertical foregrip.

Just because it's rocket science doesn't mean it's complicated

MistWolf posted:

I believe the exception comes from the Reformation has a minimum OAL of at least 26 inches. An AR with an 11.5" barrel and carbine RE has an OAL that comes in just a tick over 26".

 

Look up the letter the ATF wrote for Franklin Armory concerning an AR pistol with a vertical foregrip.

That would sure be a win. I don't see how possible though. It would sure be nice if congress would just specify 26" length and discard the barrel length. The OAL  is what determines how concealable it is. There are plenty of bull-pup designs that get the reduced OAL. Pretty much makes the barrel length requirement obsolete.

I'll definitely be talking to them.  The crucial issue is the buttstock.  I'm sure they've found a loophole, and I've seen speculation that it has to do with the trigger mechanism.  There has been talk about the binary trigger and the definition of a rifle versus a machinegun and a rifle firing one round per press of the trigger.  The binary trigger fires on the press and the release.  I don't think that's it.  But what if it only fires once when the trigger is released?  There are some shotguns set up that way.  Press the trigger and hold, swing on your target and release to fire.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

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Franklin Armory has a history of working with the ATF to get approval before introducing their products. They got ATF approval before introducing their XO-26 series, which is a non NFA AR with an 11.5" barrel, OAL of greater than 26" and a vertical foregrip.

 

My guess is Franklin Armory met with the ATF and both worked together to make the exception possible.  It makes the most sense to me that the exception is based on the category of firearm that has a barrel of less than 16 inches, but an OAL of greater than 26 inches. The ATF justified their ruling that adding a VFG to a pistol with an OAL of greater than 26 inches by stating that firearms with an OAL of 26 inches or more is not concealable and further stated that a pistol with an OAL of 26 inches or greater and a vertical foregrip is a "firearm" and is illegal to conceal on your person.

 

The ATF determined that adding a vertical foregrip to a handgun changed it from being designed for one handed use to two handed use, thus changing it from a "handgun" to an "Any Other Weapon".  As I recall, this ruling was in response to the outcry of anti-gunners against firearms like the MP-5 being offered as pistols with a vertical foregrip.

 

Later, it was determined that if the handgun had an OAL of 26 inches or greater, it wasn't concealable and could mount a VFG without becoming an AOW.

 

Originally, the whole idea behind the NFA was to ban concealable handguns. It's my understanding that the original intent for setting minimal barrel lengths and overall lengths for longarms was to prevent scofflaws from creating concealable firearms from rifles and shotguns. Fortunately, the ban on handguns was dropped, but the minimum length requirements remained in place.

 

It's interesting to note that the minimum barrel length of 18 inches originally applied to ALL longarms, shotguns AND rifles, until around 1961. Then the minimum barrel length for rifles was changed to 16 inches.

 

Taken all together, I believe the exception is based on firearms with an OAL of 26 inches or greater are not considered concealable. The next logical step would be the idea that adding a rifle stock to a non-concealable firearm does not violate the intent of the law.

 

It is also interesting to note that while the NFA was sold to the public as a way address violent crimes, it didn't get the political support it needed to pass until striking workers started arming themselves during labor disputes.

 

Just because it's rocket science doesn't mean it's complicated

MistWolf posted:

Taken all together, I believe the exception is based on firearms with an OAL of 26 inches or greater are not considered concealable. The next logical step would be the idea that adding a rifle stock to a non-concealable firearm does not violate the intent of the law.

 

Only problem with that is the barrel length.  By law and definition, a buttstock, not a brace, makes it a rifle.  A rifle with a barrel less than 16" is an SBR.  So there is some other element that removes it from the definition of rifle.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

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Dorsai posted:

Only problem with that is the barrel length.  By law and definition, a buttstock, not a brace, makes it a rifle.  A rifle with a barrel less than 16" is an SBR.  So there is some other element that removes it from the definition of rifle.

It's not a problem if the Chief of Firearms Technology finds the configuration fits within the law and allows it.

Just because it's rocket science doesn't mean it's complicated

How did the shockwave get around NFA? It was the birdshead Grip/“Stock”, correct?  I think and this is my opinion only, and it’s worth about zero that it must have something to do with the stock configuration. I will be as surprised as everyone else if this is in fact the case. 

Mojo/Mark
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MOJONIXON posted:

How did the shockwave get around NFA? It was the birdshead Grip/“Stock”, correct?  I think and this is my opinion only, and it’s worth about zero that it must have something to do with the stock configuration. I will be as surprised as everyone else if this is in fact the case. 

The Shockwave didn't get around the NFA, the NFA didn't apply because of clearly written regulations that left a dead zone.  First, a Shotgun is clearly defined as a shoulder fired weapon, i.e. with a buttstock.  So it isn't a Shotgun by definition.  A short-barreled Shotgun is a Shotgun, which has or had a buttstock, that is less than 26" in overall length and/or has a barrel less than 18" in length.  Since the Shockwave and other pistol grip only "shotguns" were manufactured without buttstocks, they aren't legally defined as Shotguns.  They are Firearms.

The next issue is not the barrel length, it is the overall length.  An AOW, any other weapon, has to be concealable by definition.  The ATF defines concealable as either having an overall length of less than 26", or actually being concealed.  So the Shockwave uses the bird's head grip to increase the overall length, thus allowing the barrel to be a bit shorter.  If you used one of the more vertical pistol grips, you'd shorten the overall length, requiring you to lengthen the barrel to compensate.  That's the niche, the gap between regulations.

As for the Reformation, we'll find out on Tuesday.  Someone has examined the regulations and found the gap.  My guess is that it is in the definition of Rifle.  I've already offered my speculation and I won't speculate further.  We'll KNOW in 3 days.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

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