9mm/5.56 Compact Truck Gun Options

Not to rehash the previous thread, but it seemed to have run it's course, and in a different direction.

 

So I've been planning on putting a dedicated "truck" gun in my POV so I can have something more significant than my pistol.  I've been looking at many factors while looking at options.  Many of the factors are at odds with each other, so I'm aware that whatever I end up with will be a compromise.  

  • Caliber- I would like to stay in 9mm or 5.56 because that's what I have on hand at any given time. 
  • Commonality- I have AR mags and G17 mags in my patrol car/vest/sustainment gear presently
  • Price- having a $2500 rifle sitting in car unattended all the time is pretty shitty.  I've traditionally stuck with cheaper rifles for this reason.
  • Portability- a 16" barreled AR is pretty noticeable once outside the vehicle, so the smaller- the better. Ideally something that can be ready to fire out of a backpack.
  • Power- it's got to be more powerful that a souped up 22lr, or what's the point?
  • ATF avoidance- I would like to avoid having a class III for a truck gun.

Basically, I've narrowed it down to a CZ Scorpion pistol with a brace, or an AR pistol.  (A Tavor would be perfect if it wasn't so freakin' expensive!)

I'm curious how much difference there is between 5.56 in a less than 10" barrel vs. defensive 9mm in longer than 6" barrel. I'm not closed off to other ideas, these options seem to be the best options so far.

 

Any experiences, opinions, or advice that can help? 

Original Post

With the release of IWI’s X95 Tavor, I’m sure there will be lots of older Tavors coming up for sale in the secondary market. I’d keep my eyes peeled for one of them.

 

"Well, thank God we all made it out in time... 'course now we're equally screwed."

10.3"/10.5"/11.5" barrelled AR15 pistol with Law Tactical folder and SB Tactical buffer tube with your choice of the SB Tactical braces (my choice is the SOB).

Don't bother messing around with barrels shorter that 10.x", or funky buffer tubes, it usually ends in tears.

The package folded is fairly compact and very quick to deploy, but quite frankly, if the occasion warrants pulling it out, it doesn't matter that it's a bit longer than a 9mm carbine.

Having a pistol AR15 also allows you to carry it in your vehicle just like any other handgun, ie: loaded, concealed, etc..

Also, it will be a familiar platform, so won't require a different manual of arms, and your mags will work in it.

As for ballistics, I would take a 5.56mm 10.x/11.5" barrelled gun over a 9mm x.x" barrelled gun.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

I'll throw something out there.  I saw that you prefer 5.56 and/or 9mm,  and an 5.56 AR pistol is good choice for what you are looking to do.  However, the .300 Blackout, with a 9"+/- barrel, MAY be a better choice.  The .300 BO is better performing out of the shorter barrels.  BCM makes a beautiful .300 upper just for this, which I own.  I also built out a 9mm AR pistol (stay away from Lone Wolf if at all possible. Quarter circle 10 is my current preferred for 9mm AR stuff).  The wife has a G17 and G19, so her having a 9mm AR that takes the same mags made really good sense.  

Where the .300 BO shines, in my opinion, is the fact that if you already have a AR/5.56 pistol/lower, then all you're looking for is the upper.  IF you go the 9mm option, now you're looking for both the upper AND lower.  My current AR pistols have Shockwave braces with LAW folders on them, and they're pretty freakin awesome.  HOWEVER, I'm looking at the SB Tactical PDW brace.  It may not get AS small as the folder, but in my opinion, would be one less thing that could go wrong (nightmare scenario is closing the folder on say, your shirt, and now having a 5-10 pound boat anchor that does you no good).  With the PDW brace, it's just a LITTLE bit more "Murphy proof" if that makes sense.  I'm looking at putting the PDW on the wife's 9mm AR pistol, as I see the smaller buffer tube/buffer spring working better with the 9mm than say 5.56 or .300, Just my opinion.

For the .300 BO, I used all green furniture to be able to tell the difference between the .300 and 5.56 firearms (I use primarily FDE for the 5.56 guns).  I also keep the ".300 magazines" I have completely separate from anything 5.56.  I also have a 5.56 BCM upper, that I could put on the pistol lower to run it as a 5.56 pistol if needed/desired.  Just something to think about.  I know, I know, .300 BO is expensive etc.  BUT, because it's an AR platform, it's not like you need to spend hundreds or thousands of hours/rounds at the range to learn how to run a different weapon platform (bullpup).  The nice thing about .300 BO is that, since the mags are 5.56 mags, if you already have magazine carriage options (chest rig, pistol belt, etc.), they'll work just fine for the .300.  IF you decide to go with the 9mm AR, and use the Glock 33 rnd stick mags, then you'll have to come up with a completely separate way of carrying spare mags (IMHO, the HSGI taco extended mag/SMG mag pouches work great for this).

Just a different perspective on all of this.


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

Primary Arms and Buds each have the BCM 11.5 Pistol in stock for $1300.  Not sure where that hits your wallet but you know it’s going to be a solid setup  

 

“They were two douchebags who met in the normal course of being two douchebags.” - Sully, Third Watch

While I have a ton of ARs, I solved this problem by putting a KelTec Sub2000 Gen 2 G17 in the truck.  It folds, so little space taken up, and I have a flashlight mounted.  Stuck several OEM Glock 33 round mags in the truck, too.  Running a simple single point sling.

Why?

Pros:

  • Cheap gun, basically disposable to me.
  • Rugged, and super simple.
  • Runs well with minimal lube, has been stupidly reliable.
  • Super compact and lightweight, so easy to carry places while out, simply slide in a laptop bag/pack.  Better than a AR pistol (which would be the only thing comparable to the Sub2k's 16.5" folded length) in many ways, IMO.
  • I almost always have a Glock with me, so additional mags handy.
  • Accepts a suppressor with 1/2x28 threads.
  • Easy to hand to a family member or credentialed stranger with minimal need to familiarize (load it for them and show them the safety, which is the crossbolt type most are familiar with from shotguns, air rifles, and hunting rifles)
  • Looks less "terrorist-y" than an AR or especially an AK, and I worry about PID/IFF issues with those guns in a real stressful situation.  My truck gun is primarily a "don't tread on me" tool, intended to help break contact and get to safety.  Even though I'm LE, I do not plan to inject myself in anything but the most dire circumstance off duty.  Too many unknowns and in TN, your LE credentials (meaning sworn arrest powers, agency mandate, and risk pool coverage) are worthless outside your home jurisdiction when acting independently.  BTW, I also keep two lime green reflective police traffic vests and a full length reversible lime green/black rain slicker in the truck for ID purposes.

Cons:

  • 9mm, so limited in effective range and stopping power, vs. 5.56mm.
  • Sights not great, but I am focusing on 100 yards and in.
  • Mounting a RDS realistically kills the folding feature.  I have chosen to stick with the stock sights.  I don't do cheap RDSs, and given the hot/cold temp changes of the truck's interior, I think that battery life will be shortened drastically.  I prefer not to worry about it, as I drive the truck very infrequently.
  • It's a KelTec, so...

Seriously, if a 9mm carbine is a consideration, why not look at it over an AR that is redesigned for 9mm?  I see little practical advantage over the KelTec, other than the greater range of accessories.  Now, if you are serious about a hard use truck gun, and have a higher perceived likelihood of needing it than "just in case," then I say pick a 5.56 Colt AR in the basic M4 style, add an Aimpoint Pro, FSB-mounted light, and a sling, and be done.  Forget about gucci gear and railed handguards, etc.

BTW, there are two versions of the gun, a G19 and a G17.  I preferred the grip on the G17 version, but the G19 would increase magazine choice and likely makes more sense.  My hands be huge, tho.

 

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

and that's a good alternative.  Except for one thing.  In a lot of states, you can NOT transport a Rifle (just because it SHOOTS a pistol round, doesn't mean it's not a rifle), that is loaded and/or easily accessible by the driver (stops the driving poaching kind of thing).  The idea of the AR pistol is, well it's a PISTOL and covered by most states Concealed Carry permits.  CCWs generally allow the pistol to either be ON you or in your immediate vicinity, with a loaded magazine.  Now, if you want to keep that Keltec in the trunk, for TEOTWAWKI, nothing wrong with that.  But, with it being in the trunk, or at least having the ammo in the trunk (separate from the rifle), well that just defeats having a "truck gun".  Just my 1:250,000 view, you might have a completely different perspective on the matter.  


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

TNYankee posted:

While I have a ton of ARs, I solved this problem by putting a KelTec Sub2000 Gen 2 G17 in the truck.  It folds, so little space taken up, and I have a flashlight mounted.  Stuck several OEM Glock 33 round mags in the truck, too.  Running a simple single point sling.

Why?

Pros:

  • Cheap gun, basically disposable to me.
  • Rugged, and super simple.
  • Runs well with minimal lube, has been stupidly reliable.
  • Super compact and lightweight, so easy to carry places while out, simply slide in a laptop bag/pack.  Better than a AR pistol (which would be the only thing comparable to the Sub2k's 16.5" folded length) in many ways, IMO.
  • I almost always have a Glock with me, so additional mags handy.
  • Accepts a suppressor with 1/2x28 threads.
  • Easy to hand to a family member or credentialed stranger with minimal need to familiarize (load it for them and show them the safety, which is the crossbolt type most are familiar with from shotguns, air rifles, and hunting rifles)
  • Looks less "terrorist-y" than an AR or especially an AK, and I worry about PID/IFF issues with those guns in a real stressful situation.  My truck gun is primarily a "don't tread on me" tool, intended to help break contact and get to safety.  Even though I'm LE, I do not plan to inject myself in anything but the most dire circumstance off duty.  Too many unknowns and in TN, your LE credentials (meaning sworn arrest powers, agency mandate, and risk pool coverage) are worthless outside your home jurisdiction when acting independently.  BTW, I also keep two lime green reflective police traffic vests and a full length reversible lime green/black rain slicker in the truck for ID purposes.

Cons:

  • 9mm, so limited in effective range and stopping power, vs. 5.56mm.
  • Sights not great, but I am focusing on 100 yards and in.
  • Mounting a RDS realistically kills the folding feature.  I have chosen to stick with the stock sights.  I don't do cheap RDSs, and given the hot/cold temp changes of the truck's interior, I think that battery life will be shortened drastically.  I prefer not to worry about it, as I drive the truck very infrequently.
  • It's a KelTec, so...

Seriously, if a 9mm carbine is a consideration, why not look at it over an AR that is redesigned for 9mm?  I see little practical advantage over the KelTec, other than the greater range of accessories.  Now, if you are serious about a hard use truck gun, and have a higher perceived likelihood of needing it than "just in case," then I say pick a 5.56 Colt AR in the basic M4 style, add an Aimpoint Pro, FSB-mounted light, and a sling, and be done.  Forget about gucci gear and railed handguards, etc.

BTW, there are two versions of the gun, a G19 and a G17.  I preferred the grip on the G17 version, but the G19 would increase magazine choice and likely makes more sense.  My hands be huge, tho.

 

You mirrored my thoughts and my choice.  I picked up a Sub 2000 2nd Gen, in green, Glock 17, for $405.  I got a used G17 3rd Gen for $250 or $275.  It was well used.  I ground off the finger grooves and stippled it myself.  The folded Sub 2000, G17, and a warbelt with holster and mag pouches fit in the storage space behind my back seat (Tacoma).  I need to come up with some more mag pouches for the Magpul 21rd mags.  

My purpose is something with better accuracy than the pistol that can get me home and won't make me cry too much if my truck is burgled.  I have less than $1000 in both guns and all associated gear.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Good idea on a cheap used full-sized Glock...I have plenty of access to those locally.

RE: AR pistols, I understand the advantages as pertaining to transporting.  I did not worry about that much in deciding.  There are obvious reasons to choose an AR pistol, and other reasons to consider the Sub2k, as I listed.  In my post above, I wasn't clear enough...I meant that for impromptu, compact, pack-n-go scenarios, I think the KelTec is less heavy, less bulky, thinner, and smaller overall versus an AR pistol, when folded.  It packs pretty flat and square, and hides easily, while offering a 16" barrel.  That beats an AR pistol with a 10" or shorter barrel, IMO.  But if a rifle in the vehicle is a no go, then that obviously changes things.

My idea of a trunk/truck gun is not that it is immediately accessible, but rather readily accessible.  Number one concern is concealing and securing it to prevent theft or unfounded road rage accusations.  For immediate response, the CCW pistol, a "true" pistol not a "technical loophole" pistol is the likely, handy, and obvious choice for me.  As such keeping ammo and rifle separated isn't that big a deal to me.  I am not really thinking TEOTWAWKI stuff, or zombies, but mass casualty attacks, Walmart walkers, backing up good guys, and so forth.  My solution is accessible in less than 10 seconds once vehicle is stopped, so long as no rear seat occupant is in the way.  I can also access from front seat, but takes about double the time to contort around.  I keep access securely locked when the truck is unused at the house.  What I really like about the Sub2k is that I can carry it concealed so easily that I can blend in with crowds if forced to leave vehicle.  It can be carried tucked under the arm and most would not notice it at all.  If slung while folded, it easily hides under a jacket or hoodie...I have carried it that way in two instances with no one the wiser.

Mostly, though, my truck sits unused for days or even weeks, and I want to minimize loss as much as possible.  Not just cost, but hardware type if taken.

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

I’ve looked at the Sub 2000 but that was back before the Gen 2 was out. I heard that Magnum Research has bought Kel-Tec. Is that true and can we expect better quality in Kel-Tec products because of that?

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

No idea on Magnum Research buying KelTec, but if they did, I would NOT expect to see quality improve.  It could even stand to worsen if they try to bump up availability.  I do feel the Gen2 is magnitudes better than the Gen1.  I recommend it without hesitation.  Hell, it's a $450-ish folding rifle that takes Glock mags.  Why not buy one?  It's cheaper than a new Glock for most buyers.  I got mine for $425, IIRC, locally.

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

The Gen 1 Sub2K needs a lot to make it more functional.  I bought mine well before the Gen 2, and primarily as a range toy until I become confident/comfortable about its basic reliability.  I ended up replacing the trigger, incorporating picatinny rails for a decent (but not Aimpoint) red dot, folding sights, sling attachment, weapon light, buttstock cover, etc.  It now has much better ergonomics and 'shootability'. 

The one thing I never had to work on was basic reliability.  This is hit or miss with Kel-tec, it seems.  You either get a good one or you don't.  Their saving grace was pretty decent customer service if you had a problem.  I keep it in a laptop case and am comfortable in keeping it in a vehicle when I feel the need. 

Tankersteve

In Yorktown, VA.          Joined August 2008

Gov't Civilian, after retiring from active duty in 2015. 

 

'One's own open sore never smells.'  - Haitian proverb

7.62x39mm looses very little performance out of a short barrel vs the standard 16". I know you said you prefer 5.56 or 9mm, but AK pistols are fairly cheap (not Galil ACE) and with an arm brace pretty handy. Mags are cheap still, and so is ammo. The con is learning a new system and sights.

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

TNYankee posted:

No idea on Magnum Research buying KelTec, but if they did, I would NOT expect to see quality improve.  It could even stand to worsen if they try to bump up availability.  I do feel the Gen2 is magnitudes better than the Gen1.  I recommend it without hesitation.  Hell, it's a $450-ish folding rifle that takes Glock mags.  Why not buy one?  It's cheaper than a new Glock for most buyers.  I got mine for $425, IIRC, locally.

My source was confused. He meant to say that Kahr bought Magnum Research some years ago. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

I appreciate all the good input!  I JUST sold a Gen 1 Sub 2000 last weekend.  I agree with Tankersteve that the Gen 1 needs a lot to make it viable compared to other things available, and I got a good offer on it.

I also agree that 300AAC and 7.62AK are great options for  short barrel/shorter distance.  For rifle calibers, I wanted to stick with 5.56 AR compatible, since I have a 5.56 in my car, my active shooter PC and sustainment bag are loaded with AR mags and G17 mags.  Having the AR mags on hand makes having AK or 300AAC an added complication. The other issue that may/may not be a concern is that we are authorized 5.56 and 9mm.  I'm not sure what grief I would get if I was involved in an incident with an outside caliber (probably ridiculous, but in the current environment, administration will look for ANYTHING to jam you up!).

I will probably go with a CZ Scorpion/SB brace because I got an offer for one at a price I can't turn down.  I have a ton of HP and FMJ 9mm on hand and available.  A lot of the available ammo is subsonic, which would be great when I want to add my 9mm can at times.  I really like that I can fold it up and it's still shootable.  the space of extra mags and the less "obnoxious" noise/flash of the 9mm are appealing too.  I'm not crazy about having proprietary mags, but the pricing for the CZ mags awesome too.

I did get a billet 9mm AR receiver that take Glock mags from a buddy needing quick cash too.  It may become a SB braced truck gun or a PCC in the future, so that I can mate up with my G17 mags too.

It's not to say that 1-2 years from now an AR pistol doesn't make more sense, but the Scorpion seems to fit the bill pretty well right now.  

If you'er a LEO/Mil/EMS/FD  contact CZ customer service. Their discount makes the Scorpion even more attractive.

---------------------------------- 'My lot in life is to serve, to the best of my ability. To know my life was not a waste, that in the end I can look back from the gates and know I did my best and that it was enough"

Is  scout rifle completely out of the question? You could find a savage scout/ hog hunter for at or less than $500. I get that ARs are more popular, but there is not much I can imagine that a 10 rd bolt fed with a RDS mounted wouldn't take care of. Would love to hear others' opinions.

If you have to fight, fight like the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark, and brother, it's starting to rain.

Not trying to hijack this thread, but I'm also looking for a little help regarding a home defense AR15 or AR15 pistol. 

Ive heard ar15 pistols suck, but never known the reasons behind it. So, I would like to know those reasons. The reason for an ar15 pistol was simply for the compact size. I don't want to run around with a musket after I add a can to a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel. 

So my questions are:

Are ar15 pistols reliable? Are they worth it? Should I reconsider and simply put a can on a 14.5 or 16 inch? 

I currently have a 14.5 in BCM with pinned and welded birdcage. It was my duty rifle, but I no longer use it for work, because my PD provided me with another AR15. I really don't want to mess with the BCM, because I might jump ship to another PD and therefore use it there. Should I buy another 14.5 or 16 inch upper with a muzzle device that accepts a suppreesor?

If building an ar15 pistol is a good idea, what barrel length is reliable? I was planning on buying a bcm upper and lower if I were to build a pistol. 

I am all ears.

If you guys say just use a 14.5 or 16 with a can, because the pros outweight the cons of a shorter ar15 pistol regarding the following... Then I'm good with that. 

There is no real difference between a quality AR15 SBR, and an AR15 Pistol made from the same components, with the exception of the lower receiver extension (buffer tube) and stock/brace. We use SB Tactical tubes and their SOB brace, and it is very tight and rigid.

10.3"/10.5" will work, but 11.5" or even 12.5" will probably be better in terms or reliability with different ammunition and conditions. If you can get a can for it, and run it suppressed full time, 10.3"/10.5" will be fine. BCM do an 11.5".

You can load and carry or transport pistols places that you may not be able to with an SBR, but as this is a HD gun, that doesn't really apply. Different rules in different states regarding barrel and overall lengths, so check regarding your local regs.

Without a can, you could run a pinned 14.5" or 16", but some cans won't add much length, but do add some weight to the end.

People who don't like AR15 pistols generally tend to prefer AR15 SBRs, but there is no real difference, and I think it comes down to a bit of snobbishness and lack of knowledge or familiarity.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

AR pistols don't suck...if you add a brace.  11.5" barrels are probably the most reliable.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of a BCM 11.5 with a Surefire SOCOM on a BCM pistol lower with the SB tactical PDW. 

I've heard the smaller Surefire can on a 14.5 inch makes little to no difference as far as sound reduction. I've been told to just go with the large one. 

I would like a SBR, but I am not down with the $200 stamp and paperwork, trust, etc.

What type of ammo does a 11.5 suppressed ar15 tend to like?

A 2 Da Z posted:

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of a BCM 11.5 with a Surefire SOCOM on a BCM pistol lower with the SB tactical PDW. 

I've heard the smaller Surefire can on a 14.5 inch makes little to no difference as far as sound reduction. I've been told to just go with the large one. 

I would like a SBR, but I am not down with the $200 stamp and paperwork, trust, etc.

What type of ammo does a 11.5 suppressed ar15 tend to like?

I have the full size SOCOM can and have run it on both my 11.5” & 14.5” BCM rifles. The 11.5” is basically the same size as the 14.5” without the can, loosing the extra 1” by doing a 10.5” doesn’t seem like it would do much for handelability and the potential reduction of reliability makes it seem like a dumb choice. The 14.5” “feels” longish with the silencer on but the extra barrel length helps with the sound reduction a bit. 

As said above, with quality components an AR pistol is the same thing as a SBR as far as reliability goes. 

My 11.5” BCM eats everything I’ve fed it unsuppressed but tears off case heads on steel case ammo with the can on so I use brass case ammo when I want to be “less loud”. I have a H2 buffer installed, I’ve thought about a H3 but haven’t really seen the need as I don’t run it with the can on much. 

Joined: 13AUG2010         Location: Southern Arizona 

I prefer a standard length tube with Law Tactical folder to the PDW style tubes. Uses standard buffers and springs, and the little Law connector adds a bit of weight to the BCG/Buffer.

Just as fast to deploy as the PDW style.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

The PDW stocks I have handled all appear to be a cosmetic accessory more than a user.  Everyone I know using them in a professional capacity went to the LAW or the LWRC Ultra compact.  

Our issued work guns are BCM 11.5's with cans and we've had zero issues.   Before that they were colt commandos in 11.5, also zero issues. 

OP I picked up a CZ Scorpion pistol for the exact same purpose, I put a folding SB brace, an MRO, an old school singlepoint, and an MRO on it and called it good.    I run it maybe once a month to stay familiar, but here is what I have found to be true at least in my circumstances.   

For one running the thing as a pistol is a novelty.  The brace or a stock has to be used to be accurate or quick.    Second, I am not that much quicker on B/C steel at 75 or 100 with it than I am with my RDS equipped duty gun.  When you figure from a cold start (draw from concealment, or deploy the scorpion by unfolding the stock and running the charging handle) its a tie.  When the targets get smaller and I have to shoot my m&p offhand, the scorpion will take the advantage just due to stability but for a torso size target offhand, its a wash.   When those targets get closer, Im faster with my pistol under the same set of circumstances. At 25-60 on B/C steel I am much much faster.    Also its a 9mm, my duty gun is a 9mm, I assume ballistics to be comparable from my 4.25 bbl as well as the 8 inch bbl just given that the round I am shooting (Hornady Critical Duty 135) was designed to be shot from a service pistol and wont get much out of that longer barrel.  Haven't chronoed either though, so thats purely hypothesis on my part.   The scorpion lives with a doubled up 30 rounder in it, but mag changes are slower because they're unfamiliar and realistically I will never run the thing enough for it to be blazing fast.  My duty gun lives with either 13 or 18 rounds in it, and the reloads are 23.  Emergency reloads though are much faster.   That brings me to my last point, I shoot thousands and thousands of rounds every year through two platforms, my duty pistol and my duty rifle.  Under my circumstances, I will never be as proficient with the scorpion as I am with either of the other two.  Dragging the scorpion out is almost live having an affair.     My conclusion was that the scorpion has a place with me, only if I am carrying deep concealment with only my shield.  As long as I can conceal my main bitch and a couple reloads, I have just as much capability as I do having my scorpion concealed in a bag.      For that reason, I actually use the scorpion a lot less than what I thought i would when I purchased it.   Would I go back and buy it again.... I don't know even at LE pricing its a substantial investment once you put a decent optic on it, and a folding brace.  It has a purpose for me but that is a very very niche purpose.    

 

 

If you wish to improve your capability, go with an AR in 5.56 mm w/barrier blind ammo or an AR in .300 BLK with the Barnes 110 gr black tip TTSX style bullet.  I personally would skip the 9 mm carbine, as I already am carrying a 9 mm pistol w/an RDS and there is just not that much difference...

The .300blk Barnes  Blacktip was the primary reason why I put together a .300blk in the first place.  With the 10.3" barrel and the Law folder, it fits in a standard backpack.  Biggest downside for me is cost of the Blacktip rounds and at times, it's availability.    

So I recently put together a 5.56 "trainier" that's going to get the vast majority of range time.  I keep a supply of 62gr Fusion for the 5.56 as well, so it's a pretty capable blaster in it's own right.  

 

[url=https://flic.kr/p/Ecxe8E][img]https://farm5.staticflickr.com...288_5cc6e3fd0e_z.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/Ecxe8E]Untitled[/url]

.300blk on the left, 5.56 on the right.  

Brock01 posted:

Is  scout rifle completely out of the question? You could find a savage scout/ hog hunter for at or less than $500. I get that ARs are more popular, but there is not much I can imagine that a 10 rd bolt fed with a RDS mounted wouldn't take care of. Would love to hear others' opinions.

Pretty much, yes.  It goes the opposite direction of what I want to purpose this gun for.   My goal was to have something that is semiauto and compact/concealable. This is for more of an urban area focus.  In the same size and limited capacity, then a 12 ga shotgun would fit the bill better.

The Scout is the opposite of my intent.  It's a great concept, even if a bit dated for modern technology (pretty sure Cooper would have re-worked the concept if Picatinny rails/RDS were so standardized as they are currently).  If I was in North Dakota, or a similar environment, then a Scout or a 308 Battle Rifle with low power optic would be my preference. 

IF the scout rifle was in my wheelhouse, I always figured a Remington 7615 (Pump action 5.56 that takes AR mags) would fit the bill closest.  The 5.56 may not be the ideal cartridge, but that's a quick handling long gun, that works the same as an Rem 870

Doug Mitchell posted:

The 7615 has a pretty bad history, including some posts here referring to that history.

Good to know. I'll keep that in the wheelhouse if it's ever a "deal" offered. It's got too many negatives for my purpose, even if it was reliable.

Anything full-size is a drawback, an AR carbine is the "least worst" option of those, based on my original criteria. 

My goal is backpack concealable (real backpack; not a rifle case with straps) to not draw attention inside or outside the vehicle.

 

B+Shooter posted:
Brock01 posted:

Is  scout rifle completely out of the question? You could find a savage scout/ hog hunter for at or less than $500. I get that ARs are more popular, but there is not much I can imagine that a 10 rd bolt fed with a RDS mounted wouldn't take care of. Would love to hear others' opinions.

Pretty much, yes.  It goes the opposite direction of what I want to purpose this gun for.   My goal was to have something that is semiauto and compact/concealable. This is for more of an urban area focus.  In the same size and limited capacity, then a 12 ga shotgun would fit the bill better.

The Scout is the opposite of my intent.  It's a great concept, even if a bit dated for modern technology (pretty sure Cooper would have re-worked the concept if Picatinny rails/RDS were so standardized as they are currently).  If I was in North Dakota, or a similar environment, then a Scout or a 308 Battle Rifle with low power optic would be my preference. 

IF the scout rifle was in my wheelhouse, I always figured a Remington 7615 (Pump action 5.56 that takes AR mags) would fit the bill closest.  The 5.56 may not be the ideal cartridge, but that's a quick handling long gun, that works the same as an Rem 870

Fair enough. In this case I'd agree that an AR pistol with a folding brace would work best. Especially in 300 BO.

If you have to fight, fight like the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark, and brother, it's starting to rain.

Brock01 posted:
B+Shooter posted:
Brock01 posted:

Is  scout rifle completely out of the question? You could find a savage scout/ hog hunter for at or less than $500. I get that ARs are more popular, but there is not much I can imagine that a 10 rd bolt fed with a RDS mounted wouldn't take care of. Would love to hear others' opinions.

Pretty much, yes.  It goes the opposite direction of what I want to purpose this gun for.   My goal was to have something that is semiauto and compact/concealable. This is for more of an urban area focus.  In the same size and limited capacity, then a 12 ga shotgun would fit the bill better.

The Scout is the opposite of my intent.  It's a great concept, even if a bit dated for modern technology (pretty sure Cooper would have re-worked the concept if Picatinny rails/RDS were so standardized as they are currently).  If I was in North Dakota, or a similar environment, then a Scout or a 308 Battle Rifle with low power optic would be my preference. 

IF the scout rifle was in my wheelhouse, I always figured a Remington 7615 (Pump action 5.56 that takes AR mags) would fit the bill closest.  The 5.56 may not be the ideal cartridge, but that's a quick handling long gun, that works the same as an Rem 870

Fair enough. In this case I'd agree that an AR pistol with a folding brace would work best. Especially in 300 BO.

That's where I am at.  9" .300BO

I despise the LAW folding tube, and instead went with the SiG MCX.

I just got the separate PISTOL SiG lower and getting the .300BO barrel when a great sale comes up...

~Will

 




 

 

   Anybody can blow something up, but to disarm anothers bomb, this is when talent, skill, bravery & LUCK will all determine "Success or Failure".  

 

Location: UTAH              Joined: 2003

Wild_Willie posted:

That's where I am at.  9" .300BO

I despise the LAW folding tube, and instead went with the SiG MCX.

I just got the separate PISTOL SiG lower and getting the .300BO barrel when a great sale comes up...

Curious: what do you despise about the LAW folder?

A 2 Da Z posted:

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of a BCM 11.5 with a Surefire SOCOM on a BCM pistol lower with the SB tactical PDW. 

I've heard the smaller Surefire can on a 14.5 inch makes little to no difference as far as sound reduction. I've been told to just go with the large one. 

I would like a SBR, but I am not down with the $200 stamp and paperwork, trust, etc.

What type of ammo does a 11.5 suppressed ar15 tend to like?

I have a 14.5 full BCM gun and an 11.5 SBR. I bought a Surefire socom mini for the 14.5 because I thought I would never SBR a lower. The mini IMO works very well on a 14.5 gun. The sound reduction is very good also.

Once the socom mini is mounted on the 11.5 it doesn’t reduce the sound near as well as when it is mounted on the 14.5. The 11.5 with the mini mounted on it is bearable, but putting the full size 556 socom can on there is going to be more pleasant to the ears. 

You can not go wrong with using all BCM components for your pistol build. The barrels will have the proper size gas port which is a big factor in using a suppressor. 

I'd be interested to hear opinions about the LAW folder as well. I've had one for a few years and it's worked well. I've read a decent amount about them on the internet over the years and the only negative I heard about with some consistency was that they had the potential to create some drag on the bolt carrier as it reciprocates, sometimes causing wear or malfunctions... please don't ask me to elaborate, I don't recall the exact details or if people were able to narrow it down to parts tolerances/installation/wear. I've heard little enough about this issue and there are enough of the LAW folders out there, that I'm sure it's a very small percentage of people running into problems.

 

I don't worry about mine but also don't put them on every gun. Any moving part has the ability to fail and adding moving parts should probably only be done when the benefit outweighs the risk... and I think the LAW folder manages to add more than it takes away for many users.

Truck gun.....for those moments in which you must defend against an ambush,  close with and destroy a close proximity adversary or VCQB.....ie make sure its good for reliability and stick it under the seat. 

Sub $550 AR pistol....5.56mm or .300 Blackout..Aero precision et al.

if you use it you'll loose it....

 

 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

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