Avidity Arms PD10 - (are you paying attention S&W?)

http://soldiersystems.net/2017...-show-2017/#comments 

I'll let you read the article for yourself but the basic specs for the weapon are:  

Avidity Arms PD10 Specifications:

Caliber: 9mm

Action: Striker-Fired

Capacity: 10+1

Barrel Length: 4”

Front Sight: Ameriglo Luma Glow

Rear Sight: I.C.E. Claw Emergency Manipulation Sight

Finishes: Black Nitride

Grips: Integral to frame

Construction: High impact polymer / stainless steel slide

Safety: Integrated Trigger Block and Drop Safeties

Weight: 18.8 oz.

Length: 6.94”

Height: 5.14”

Width: 1”

MSRP: $499

 

It looks like someone is finally making a full size polymer single stack 9mm.  Too bad it isn't S&W.  I can't for the life of me understand why full size single stack 9mm's aren't more popular.  Especially leading up to the election.  You would think that developing a "ban" ready pistol would have been a priority for manufacturers.  Maybe we will see more of these at SHOT but who knows.  I like my Shield because it carries well but wish there was more grip for my XXL sized hands.  I'm not familiar with this manufacturer so I don't know if these will be worth anything but still maybe it will build some competition in the market.  

A Soldier without bullets is just a tourist!
Original Post

Pincus collaboration? Aside from anything else, is he a firearms designer? 

Then I want to know who designed it, and who makes it.

With so very, very, very little about how it's designed or made I strongly suspect it's Turkish (or something) and shipped over 90% complete, so it can be final machined, assembled, finished and then "made in USA!" 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Designed on the back of a napkin (they tout that all over) strikes me as someone who doesn't know what design of dynamic systems entails, so I was being nice.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

fpdsniper posted:

Yea if Pincus is involved, I'm not interested.  In my opinion all he is good for is self promotion.

He is kinda hard on Assistant Instructors as well I hear...

If you google it,  it is like it never happened.

Location: in SE Idaho, the birthplace of television. 

Well...he DID speak to " ... for immeasurable hours." So he HAS done his homework.  

Umsunu Kwanyoko: Zulu saying

 

"If you attack a Police Officer, you are expected to lose" Judge Dahl

 

 

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ps. I have a pair of The Kate's panties...

Been wanting something close to it for years, but serious doubts about it actually doing well because of the unknowns involved.

Really wish Glock would lay a 19 down on a table,trace around it and design a single stack to to fit it. Something with an actual grip, 8-9 round mags and as thin as the 43 would rock. Kahr P9  was almost the right idea but just not quite there.

jfirebalrog posted:

Really wish Glock would lay a 19 down on a table, trace around it and design a single stack to to fit it. Something with an actual grip, 8-9 round mags and as thin as the 43 would rock. Kahr P9  was almost the right idea but just not quite there.

Or, as in the OP, Smith could MAKE A BIGGER SHIELD. Seriously, it's hardly even engineering at that point, just make more gun on the bottom and front. When did single-stack start to exclusively mean "compact"? 

I like the idea of the big Kahrs (there are/were several), somehow never ran across one so never tried/bougt it.  What's not to your taste with them? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

If anyone cares, here's more photos in a handjob "review" so bad I won't bother re-posting, but they do claim to have seen it shoot, or maybe shot it? So badly written it's hard to tell. http://www.shootingsportsretai...-might-surprise-you/ Ugh, the backstrap. 

Facebook page has a few component photos if anyone wants to see the inside, sorta. Not one photo of machine rest tests, of parts anywhere but a home workbench looking area, of manufacturing, etc. Still suspicious of who makes it. 

Also, googling more, it IS familiar to me. Announced and it was shown off over a year ago. It's 6 months late to shelves and counting. So, vaporware since no one not related to Pincus, his coworkers, or deep industry insiders has actually seen one apparently. 

At least mags won't suck. Takes 1911 9 mm mags, unmodified.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

 

 Pincus....sigh....he had written an article for SWAT a few or more years back where he through some long time and well respected instructors under the bus...guys like Pat,(RIP) LAV, Clint, Howe...not by name, but since they all teach much the same thing, and Pincus derided that...all while having no real world experience to speak of. So, in short, fuck him..

Did he design the gun....I'm willing to believe he doodled some shit on a napkin depicting what he thought would be a good gun,or features that he would like to see...and then some design team of engineers took it from there, which would be fine, if not preferable.

I too wold not mine seeing a single stack 9mm....but I have a PM9 and a P9..not sure what is "not quite there" about it.

Honestly, I think the market just might not be there in the view of companies like Glock and S&W. Outside of some LFer, and maybe a pistol centric forum, I don't hear anyone asking for them. Hell, for all we know, S&W and Glock have single stack designs sitting on the table waiting for a ban to happen again. Smith had the single stack 39 series...how well did they sell after the 59 series was introduced?

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

I'm still waiting  for Nyeti to chime in on the Pincus part of this. 

Mojo/Mark
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Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

The sights are important because they are Pincus branded barricade-cocking sights. I think. It's so jargony and TM'd that it's hard to tell what anything actually does.

It looks so much like the single stack Bersa (some pins even seem to be similarly located) I overlaid them in Photoshop. No go. But, there's that if you want a thin (8 round) 9 mm for cheap. Bersa's an okay company. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

SNDT1319 posted:

I can't for the life of me understand why full size single stack 9mm's aren't more popular.  

Because I can carry 50% more bullets in basically the same size package, for the same or less money in a proven system.  The most important mag you carry is the one in the gun.  I want it to have lots of bullets in it if possible.  

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

shoobe01 posted:

The sights are important because they are Pincus branded barricade-cocking sights. I think. It's so jargony and TM'd that it's hard to tell what anything actually does.

It looks so much like the single stack Bersa (some pins even seem to be similarly located) I overlaid them in Photoshop. No go. But, there's that if you want a thin (8 round) 9 mm for cheap. Bersa's an okay company. 

You may be on to something there.  IIRC the SSD story showed Bersa as one of the companies that whoever is Mfg. or marketing this also imports/represents.

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

SPDSNYPR posted:
SNDT1319 posted:

I can't for the life of me understand why full size single stack 9mm's aren't more popular.  

Because I can carry 50% more bullets in basically the same size package, for the same or less money in a proven system.  The most important mag you carry is the one in the gun.  I want it to have lots of bullets in it if possible.  

^ This. Once I realized I could conceal my G17 w/x300u easily, and comfortably with the right holster I lost interest in big single stack 9mm guns.

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

Some ppl have serious issues with double stacks due to hand size. I'd rather they have 9 or 10 they can hit with even one handed than 18 they can't grip right.

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Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

MrMurphy posted:

Some ppl have serious issues with double stacks due to hand size. I'd rather they have 9 or 10 they can hit with even one handed than 18 they can't grip right.

Grip radius is the key hand sizer, such that quite small-handed individuals can shoot big guns well as long as they are thin. Back during the big transition to autoloaders (80s mostly) a number of agencies offered single stacks to officers who chose to, or whom the training staff decided were fooling themselves with the big gun. 59xx/39xx mixes, for example. 

The purchase/management of single fleeting, etc. tended to make that go away after a while, but I always liked the concept. I wonder if that's why single stack duty guns disappeared, now that I write this. Markets are built first off government buys, and with none, why bother? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

That is a good point. 

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

shoobe01 posted:
jfirebalrog posted:

Really wish Glock would lay a 19 down on a table, trace around it and design a single stack to to fit it. Something with an actual grip, 8-9 round mags and as thin as the 43 would rock. Kahr P9  was almost the right idea but just not quite there.

Or, as in the OP, Smith could MAKE A BIGGER SHIELD. Seriously, it's hardly even engineering at that point, just make more gun on the bottom and front. When did single-stack start to exclusively mean "compact"? 

I like the idea of the big Kahrs (there are/were several), somehow never ran across one so never tried/bougt it.  What's not to your taste with them? 

In my experience, the Kahr lineup has been unreliable, and the DAO trigger difficult to manage. If a trigger is hard for me to manage at my level of experience, consider how that gun is for the average user to use.

I wanted to like them, and felt that they brought a lot to the table. But it was like bringing a really hot, but methed out stripper home for thanksgiving dinner. The really bad parts outweigh the good bits. 

I am absolutely on board with the concept of full size, single stack, service caliber pistols that are both slim and light. If Surefire actually thought about their customers needs and dusted off the single 123A battery X 2/300 series weapon light design, it would go very well with such a pistol. The XC1... is not it.

This is (IMV) a market segment that is unexplored because it is outside the conventional box. It may be a little bit of cart/horse problem as well. The weaponlight and pistol need to come out at the same time.

scjbash posted:

The Avidity Arms website says made in the USA. My dollar is on Keltec. The grip also looks very Keltecish.

If Pincus' involvement in this doesn't kill it on the vine, Kel-Tec's involvement, if it turns out to be true, certainly will put that final nail in the coffin. And I at one time owned a P-11. Nice gun...for a POS. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
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You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

shoobe01 posted

I like the idea of the big Kahrs (there are/were several), somehow never ran across one so never tried/bougt it.  What's not to your taste with them? 

The trigger  (DAO style striker fired) and durability left a lot to be desired. The steel ones felt fine but the polymer ones never felt very high quality.  They are pretty spendy now(compared to a Glock or Sheild), initially the prices were comparable. It doesn't surprise me that you don't see them often, I don't think they sell very well. Of course this is all Ca. 2003-5 experience they may have fixed a lot of stuff and may be reflected by the price jump.

 

Hmm...I have both a Kahr PM9 and P9...I like them. Taking into account they are little guns, so I don't shoot them as often as a full size M&P...I do haul them out and fire up the carry ammo.

I have no problem keeping 10 rounds well w/in the black of a B8 at 25 yards, with both guns. The trigger is long, and requires full travel for reset, but it is "smooth" and not heavy. 

The only issue I had, was with the PM9, when I re-assembled it, I put the little nut on the RSA backwards, which caused some functioning problems. Stripped and paid attention to the manual and re-assembled....no issues.

I never got the impression that they were cheap, or poorly made. Would I buy one again...hmm...with the Glock 43(?) and S&W Shield, maybe not...but I'm not selling either Kahr to buy one of those.

Back in the 80's, when myself and MattE were younr Paratroops...and we started are combat gun buying and shooting career...I looked at some single stack 9's and figured...Nah...if it's a 9, I want lots of bullets. A little while later, after playing with the M9/Ber92 , and reading of an agency that allowed a single stack or double stack 9mm choice for it's officers, but, if you went single, you carried double the amount of reloads, I decided that might be the way to go. Now, I casually seek out the S&W 3906.

For me, it's not about concealment, it's about LOP.

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Since I have a nonfunctional left arm/hand I can only shoot with my right. I've found that slimmer grip pistols are easier to control. Same can be said of alloy/steel pistols vs. some polymer. For years my go-to handgun has been an older Sig P225. A while back I started looking around for something with a rail to mount a light for house gun use. Also having a higher capacity sounded good too. Glock 19s just feel wrong in my hand, the 17 felt better but was bigger than I wanted. At the time was not sure about the S&W M&P. The Sig P226 & P229 just didn't feel as good in-hand and were very pricey. Ended up getting a FN FNP. Felt great in my hand, but I could not shoot it worth a shit. It just seemed "whippy" on recoil and my aim suffered. Ended up trading it in for a CZ P-01. Pretty satisfied with it so far, but my Sig P225 still feels better in-hand & shoots better.

That out of the way, I first saw the Avidity Arms PD10 pop up through a friend's Facebook feed.  I liked the description of it, and of course the marketing hype makes it sound like you must have one. Sucks that the guy fronting it sounds like a douche, but that's not a deal-breaker yet. Of course it is still vaporware, and I'll still let some other shooters be the beta-testers. The same wait & see tactic worked with the Remington R51.

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R.Moran posted:

Hmm...I have both a Kahr PM9 and P9...I like them. Taking into account they are little guns, so I don't shoot them as often as a full size M&P...I do haul them out and fire up the carry ammo.

I have no problem keeping 10 rounds well w/in the black of a B8 at 25 yards, with both guns. The trigger is long, and requires full travel for reset, but it is "smooth" and not heavy. 

The only issue I had, was with the PM9, when I re-assembled it, I put the little nut on the RSA backwards, which caused some functioning problems. Stripped and paid attention to the manual and re-assembled....no issues.

I never got the impression that they were cheap, or poorly made. Would I buy one again...hmm...with the Glock 43(?) and S&W Shield, maybe not...but I'm not selling either Kahr to buy one of those.

Back in the 80's, when myself and MattE were younr Paratroops...and we started are combat gun buying and shooting career...I looked at some single stack 9's and figured...Nah...if it's a 9, I want lots of bullets. A little while later, after playing with the M9/Ber92 , and reading of an agency that allowed a single stack or double stack 9mm choice for it's officers, but, if you went single, you carried double the amount of reloads, I decided that might be the way to go. Now, I casually seek out the S&W 3906.

For me, it's not about concealment, it's about LOP.

I was always fighting trigger finger placement with  them,pushing the gun left or right. I honestly have the same issues with double action revolvers unless I use a really large grip. After shooting Glocks for 12+ years when I tried the kahr..........

As to the quality, the frame just seemed thin and kinda cheap to me, the plastic galling and warping. Nothing that would keep it from working, just not reassuring to me.

I suspect that the market for a single stack full size-ish 9mm is not economically viable. It would be a response to what is mostly a crop of outliers: folks with hand size issues and the like; folks in occupied states with magazine capacity limits, etc.

In some ways this is similar to some of the more reasonable postings I see on the S&W forum "Wish List" sub-forum. A 3", RB K frame 38/357 with good sights makes sense for revolver carriers, but is not much of a market today, as opposed to a 12 round N frame .22 with a 6.5" barrel and a scope mount; neat, but not rational for most.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

Doug Mitchell posted:

...folks with hand size issues and the like...

Women. Or has that marketing congealed around funny finishes on .380s? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I think there are niche markets and the key is the size of the niche.

- Quasi-full size single stack 9mm.  Slim is easier to conceal than fat.  Barrel length is largely immaterial.  5" gets more difficult, 4" - 4 1/4" is the sweet spot.  Less than 4" is easy to conceal, but now you're out of the "full-size" category.  The cross-over for this niche is the people with smaller hands who can't handle the girth of a double stack.  Let's look at mainstream market.  It's fine to say that guns should be comforting, not comfortable, and a double-stack nine with 15-17 rd capacity is what you should carry and if it doesn't fit your hand or clothing well, suck it up and change.  That works for a top tier and is legitimately good advice.  But if you are a gun company in the business of making, marketing and selling guns, you look beyond that top tier.  

I work part-time at a gun store because I like it.  I like being around guns, handling them, seeing the new stuff and helping people, most of them first time buyers, select a gun that fits their needs.  Most new shooters are looking for a gun for home defense.  Many of them say that they are also considering or going to get their concealed carry permit.  Almost all are looking for something that fits both needs, which is tough to do.  If I had a slim, full size 9mm with a 9-10rd capacity, that fit their hands, had a reasonable sight radius and less recoil than the small 9's, they'd be very happy.  

There is one small, sub-niche in this category that by default, gets shunted to revolvers.  Those people who can't effectively run a slide (most of the time).  In most cases, they don't have the grip strength due to age or nerve impairment.  Beretta used to make a number of guns, from .22LR to .380 with tip up barrels.  That allowed the user to tip up the barrel, load a round, and have a full magazine without having to run the slide.  What do they do if they have a malfunction?  Again, let's be realistic.  We tell these people they need to practice and train and 95% of them won't do it.  Even if they had the grip strength, under stress and fear they aren't going to remember how to clear a malfunction.  

- 3" - 4"  medium frame revolvers.   I talked about the revolver crowd.  Revolvers are a default option for those without the grip strength for a semi-auto, or don't want to deal with the complexity of loading a magazine chambering a round, safeties, decockers, unloading, etc.  Open a cylinder and put in ammo or remove it as desired.  We know the issues with an airweight, 5-shot J-frame.  For this crowd, a 6-shot K frame makes more sense.  3" - 4" barrel.  .38spl, though marketing would probably prefer .357.  And this is my preference, a hammerless (shrouded), DA design like an upsized 642 or the new Kimber.  Give it a good DA trigger pull.  No safety, no locks, no exposed hammer to snag or tempt them to thumb cock it.  And...an aluminum frame.  Keeps the weight down without greatly increasing recoil.  Round butt with comfortable grips that don't leave the little finger hanging.  If it was priced between $400 and $500, I'd sell a shit load.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai posted:

I think there are niche markets and the key is the size of the niche.

Love everything about this post, and I miss the Beretta 86 and their ilk. Need a replacement for that sometime. 

But the market size is why I always thought it made sense for a big gun company to make one. A long, tall Shield (for example) means they have to stock one more gun, plus the parts: 

  • Frame (empty, same small parts as existing gun) 
  • Magazine
  • Barrel
  • Slide (empty, same small parts as existing gun)
  • Recoil spring
  • Recoil spring guide rod

Every big company already has their taticool versions and their target versions, etc. they often have many of the same parts varying, plus sights and fire control parts. 

It seems more risky to base an entire company around a possibly niche gun.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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