Best 9mm SD ammo

quote:
Originally posted by tpd223:
quote:
Originally posted by danger_close:
Anyone using (or used) the Winchester PDX-1 124gr. +P 9mm round?

http://www.winchester.com/Prod...1/Pages/S9MMPDB.aspx


Yes, in a couple of my guns. That is the 124gr +P Version of the same bullet in 147gr that the FBI issues for folks using 9mms.

Doc has tested that, it's good stuff.


Couldn't find any of the Speer Gold Dot like my issued duty ammo in my area, so after reading some reviews, testimonials and Winchester's statement about it being the round chosen by the FBI, I loaded up my wife's G19 with these.

_______________________

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of Evil is for good men to do nothing." ~Edmund Burke

 

"You are here to put in work...If you know AR 670-1 better than FM 7-8, get the fuck out of my face." ~MickFury

quote:
Originally posted by aftransporter1:
Question I keep reading that WWB 9mm 147 grain Hollow Point is decent ammo (internet forums) but I have shot Federal HST and Hydarshoks and low flash from my perspective and I shot Remmington JHPs I think 115 and there was high flash. I was just wondering if the WWB 147 grain HP has a low flash powder since it is at any big box store.

In 40 I carry Winchester Ranger RA40T and 9mm it is Federal HST 147 or Hornday Tap 124.


The WWB 147gr JHP has been my agencies issued duty load since switching from revolvers in the late 1980's.

It does have low flash when shooting in low/no light.

It is a very accurate loading.

It will usually have adequate penetration.

It totally sucks as a duty round!

If the suspect you shoot is butt ass naked, and the shot is unobstructed, it'll do ok. Maybe.

Otherwise, the JHP has a tendency to plug up with material (clothing, ect.) and fail to expand. This happens more often than not.

We had an issue about two months ago, where it apparently was "shoot at the police week". This resulted in 4 OIS in 5 days. The failure of this round during one incident helped to push for a change in ammunition (along with a new Chief willing to entertain the idea).

Factoring in cost (must be considered when ordering for 1,050 officers in a city trying to prevent layoffs due to the budget), the Winchester 147gr Ranger loading is what we may be switching to.

We also received a couple of boxes of the new 62gr 5.56mm FBI loading to T&E. This would replace the 55 gr SilverTip 223 (that will break if you drop the round). I'm hopeful things will change for the better. Doing all I can behind the scenes to push it.

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

quote:
Originally posted by danger_close:
quote:
Originally posted by tpd223:
quote:
Originally posted by danger_close:
Anyone using (or used) the Winchester PDX-1 124gr. +P 9mm round?

http://www.winchester.com/Prod...1/Pages/S9MMPDB.aspx


Yes, in a couple of my guns. That is the 124gr +P Version of the same bullet in 147gr that the FBI issues for folks using 9mms.

Doc has tested that, it's good stuff.


Couldn't find any of the Speer Gold Dot like my issued duty ammo in my area, so after reading some reviews, testimonials and Winchester's statement about it being the round chosen by the FBI, I loaded up my wife's G19 with these.


During the great ammo shortage of the past few years I would commonly tell people to pick any of the loads on Doc's list and call it a day.

I used to be an obsess over ammo type of guy, and I know others who still are. They would search high and low for a certain load, but pass up perfectly good ammo that would serve their needs because it wasn't THAT load.

Back in 2006 we couldn't get our preferred 124gr +P Gold Dot, at all, from anywhere, and the factory was telling us 8-10 months for delivery time.
OMB in the KC area had enough 124gr +P Ranger-T on the shelf to square us away so I bought that for the year instead of the Speer loading. The Ranger-T proved in several OISs to be quality police duty load on par with the Gold Dot.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Think I'm gonna have to throw my (never tested, often completely useless Big Grin) opinion in with tpd223. I placed a big order with Wideners for some 5.56 they had on sale but they were sold out of 147gr Speer Gold Dots. Ended up buying 147gr Remington Golden Sabers. It's also on DocGKR's list and from what I've shot of it, it's quite accurate and I feel confident it will do the job.

Any of you guys used Remington Golden Saber?

-Sean

 

I'm just an "Average Earth Person," so please view my posts with that in mind.

quote:
Any of you guys used Remington Golden Saber?


I used to carry the 124gr +P in one of my off-duty 9mms when the GD was made out of Unobtanium. A friend in the Indy area tells me of a number of OISs where that load was used to good effect.

I also used the GS in my .40s and .45s when I had some of those, accurate stuff. I think at one time the FBI guys that carry 1911s issued the 230gr GS as a duty load.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

They 127gr load is very, very good. I know several BTDT guys who think highly of the 127gr +P+, a couple from personal experience.
That it also tests well by guys like Doc means something to me, if both the lab guys and the shooters are happy I believe you have a good idea how that bullet is going to work should you need it.

The standard Cor Bon 115gr load leaves a bit to be desired in penetration and working through barriers, that 127gr loadings is a much better choice.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

quote:
Here is the same, lower quality but with commentary from a newsie - can't recognize the language though maybe someone else can interpret.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0b_1279899593


Bit of a necro-post, but the question was never answered. It's Brazilian Portuguese, and the narrator is essentially just giving a step-by-step of whats plainly visible in the video. I'd read somewhere that the victim was an off-duty cop in Brazil, but the narrator didn't say anything about that, simply calling him 'the victim' throughout the video.

Back OT, I've carried Speer Gold Dot 124grn +p for the last two years in my G17 on duty. Haven't had to test it, so no data to contribute there...

"One hundred rounds do not constitute firepower. One hit constitutes firepower"-Gen.Merritt Edson, USMC

I'm not sure what a guy getting whacked in Brazil has to do with 9mm duty ammo, but I'll throw in my info is that this was a hit of a guy from one gang who dropped a dime on some guys from another gang, so the friends of the guys in jail took out the witness.

You have no worries with the 124gr +P Gold Dot, it works, and it works very well.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Just answering a question from earlier in the thread from a while ago.

I've got worries about the Gold Dots doing their part if I do mine, but another voice in affirmation is always nice.

"One hundred rounds do not constitute firepower. One hit constitutes firepower"-Gen.Merritt Edson, USMC

Just caught my own typo.

I meant to type that I had NO worries about the Gold Dots doing their part if I put them where they need to go.

Thanks again for that phone call and info Doc, both on the armor, and on ammo.

"One hundred rounds do not constitute firepower. One hit constitutes firepower"-Gen.Merritt Edson, USMC

I also have a G19, After looking at tests and stats from both from federal/state databases and tests at home. I perfer the Federal HST 124 +P as the primary, The Speer Gold Dot 124 +P in a close second. I try to look for enough penetration like indicated on the FBI testing to strike vital organs if a shot was effected by the suspects arm or clothing. It comes down to perference I perfer a little more weight on a SD round then the 115 and a higher velocity then the 147.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
http://www.handloads.com/misc/...aliber=16&Weight=All

"In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"

 

In memory of those who lived the good life and fought the good fight.

N3FF, just note that much of the Firearms Tactical info has become dated over the years due to newer loads, and improvements in other existing loads.

Doc's list is solid advice.

Much/most (all?) of the info here is from Doc's testing;

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/S...e_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm


If you check the Terminal Ballistics forum over at M4carbine you'll find a great deal of testing that he has posted over the years.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

quote:
Originally posted by EzGoingKev:
I came across this here for those carrying 147g Ranger T ammo.

It is the best deal I have found. If anyone else knows of anything cheaper please post it up.


That's a great deal for good stuff.

And that's a great link TPD.
As an aside, Ez's link to the OMB site is good about any given time.
They are a LE distributor for Winchester so they commonly have Ranger-T in stock in 9mm, .40 and .45, that's where I get my 124gr +P Ranger-T and the 127gr +P+ stuff.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

quote:
Originally posted by LaRue:
Thanks, good to know.

So how much do the rules change when we're talking shorter barreled 9mms?

Kel-tecs and such?


None in 9mm

Doc has tested these loads down to the 3" guns, I have seen OISs with G26s, neither of us note any real differences.

In the micro guns reliability is the real issue in my experience. Pick the most reliable ammo you can find for your mini-blaster. I would do this even if the most reliable ammo isn't the best ammo wound ballistics wise.
An example would be my wife's Kahr PM9. Her gun runs ball and Federal 115gr +P+ BPLE 100%, most other rounds such as Gold Dots at like 95%. 95% don't cut it, so BPLE it is.
She likes that little gun, shoots it well, and actually carries it daily, so that load not being on Doc's list is not the top consideration in that particular case. HH6 is aware of the possible issues. In her case the PM9 is basically a 5-7 round NSR gun, then run like hell.

My understanding is that short .45s have issues with failure to expand though.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Having read all the 9mm threads I can find here, I am switching my carry ammo from Corbon 115 to Speer Gold Dot 124 + P. Is there any real difference in the 124 + P and the 124 + P Short Barrel? Are they the same or not so much? My current carry is Glock 26 or 19.
Doug
Military Police = MP = Mike Papa
Join:  11/04/2007      Loc:  East Tennessee
My agency hosted a ballistics workshop last Friday for ATK. In 9mm the three rounds tested were the following:

Federal HST 147 gr (P9HST2)
Speer 124 gr +P (53617)
Winchester 147gr JHP (WWB - Current issued duty load)

The test gun was a M&P9 (4" barrel). Bare Gel, FBI wall board/cloth, 4 layer denim, and auto glass tests were done.

The rounds performed in the following order:

The Federal 147 gr HST out performed in all categories except for the auto glass.

The CCI 124gr +P Gold Dot had the edge in the auto glass test. No surprise as it's a bonded round.

The Winchester white box 147gr JHP... Better than FMJ. In it's day, it had an advantage over some of the rounds of the time. IT's day has past though.

After the tests were completed with the 4" M&P, bare gel tests were done with a M&P9c (3.5" barrel) using all three rounds. This was done to see what effect going from the 4" M&P to the 3.5" M&P9c. The penetration of the HST round was exactly the same with the M&P9c as with the M&P9 (14.25").

The entire battery of tests were not performed with the smaller gun due to the number of available blocks. (Still needed to test .223 duty rounds)

I had a personally owned 3" barreled Kahr PM9 that I included in the testing. A bare gel shot of all three rounds was conducted using the PM9. The penetration of the HST round only increased to 15". I don't have the other figures as the data sheet is at the range with our Range Master. But the decrease in the minimum and maximum expansion of the HST round from the 3.5" M&P9c to the 3" PM9 wasn't enough to get excited about.

I am sure of the data as I was the one doing the measuring for this workshop. (ATK prefers to not have their personnel do the measuring.)

Bottom line, I personally would not worry about the 147 gr HST in a 3" PM9. Nor would I feel the need to have different rounds for different size 9mm guns.

FYI - Other things I might mention: The Federal flight control 00 Buck loading is amazing. Our current reduced recoil 00 Buck grouped 11" at 50'. The Federal reduced recoil flight control loading grouped 5.5" out of the same 870 at 50".

The Speer 38spc 135gr +P out of my S&W 642 went 11.5" in bare gel, and looked picture perfect in the uniformity of it's expansion.

Shooting a 9mm 147gr HST round and a 230gr 45 HST round into the same block of gel is an eye opening experience. Both rounds penetrated to exactly the same distance. Looking at the expanded rounds, and at the permeant wound channel of both side by side reaffirmed to me that the difference between both isn't all that great. Carrying 17 rds of 9mm vs 10 rds of 45? A no brainer for me...

Kent and Johann from ATK were a class act. Johann really knows what he's talking about and is an interesting guy to talk with. But after spending the day with him, I now feel the need to go buy a folding Strider knife!

Next week, Winchester is coming out. Will see how the 147gr Ranger loading performs out of the PM9.

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Doc's testing, and our OISs locally, show that the Gold Dot performs well whether it is launched from a G26 or a G17.

I quit worrying about small 9mms years ago.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Beat Trash: I am glad the test went well.

As I have reported for some time, there is generally no discernible difference in 9mm JHP performance between 4" and 3.5" barrels.

The Flight Control buckshot is indeed impressive--wait till you see the new #1 FC buckshot in action, it is the best multi-projectile 12 ga load we have ever tested.

How did the various .223 loads perform?
Just as an aside. Kylesgunshop.com has the full line of hst's 9mm and gold dot 9mm for 28.99 a box right now. You might have to call him to order it because he doesn't always have it on his web page but I was just in his store front today and he had cases of the stuff...
1. I copy there is "no discernable difference" in 9mm from a 3.5 or 4.0 barrel.
2. Is there a difference in the "standard" GDHP 124+P and the "Short Barrel" GDHP 124+P? The boxes have different manufacturers numbers and different barcode numbers. I am asking is there a difference in these two loads, not the difference in different barrel lengths?
3. Thank you for any assistance. Smile
Doug
Military Police = MP = Mike Papa
Join:  11/04/2007      Loc:  East Tennessee
quote:
there is generally no discernible difference in 9mm JHP performance between 4" and 3.5" barrels.


Many years ago, someone did a pretty good round of testing with (as I recall) around a dozen 9 mm handguns, a lot of different ammo and a chrono.

1/2-1" barrel length differences had no discernable relationship to accuracy or /velocity/, believe it or not. There were variations, but they were apparently random.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

quote:
Originally posted by J.M. Johnston:
Beat trash: it's hard to imagine cpd actually carrying a modern duty round. I've been shaking my head at the wwb 147s ever since I started paying attention to such things.


A new Chief form the outside is providing the opportunity for a lot of positive changes.

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
Beat Trash: I am glad the test went well.

As I have reported for some time, there is generally no discernible difference in 9mm JHP performance between 4" and 3.5" barrels.

The Flight Control buckshot is indeed impressive--wait till you see the new #1 FC buckshot in action, it is the best multi-projectile 12 ga load we have ever tested.

How did the various .223 loads perform?


Kent Snyder said you'd been "pushing for us to make a #1 buck load for years". I definitely am looking forward to it, if only for my personal guns. Will try real hard to get the flight control loading issued, even if it's the 9 pellet OO buck loading. We have to go with what's available now.

Our duty 223 is the Winchester 55gr Silvertip. Bullet tip breaks off if dropped, bullet sets back easily, ext. Need to change. Badly.

Johann does an excellent job educating the uneducated as to why over penetration is overrated.

In bare gel, the Winchester 55 gr Silvertip started disintegrating from about 1.5" through about 3". The gel looked like it was filled with confetti within this area. After that, the only thing recovered was a .22 disc that was about 50% as thick as the diameter. Shot this test twice to ensure it wasn't a fluke. It wasn't.

The 55gr Gold Dot 223 loading (24446) was tested. It expanded well in the bare gel test, but I was disappointed in the penetration. Was around 10" if I remember correctly. Data is at the Range facility, so going from memory.

The 55 gr Federal Tactical Bonded loading (LE223T1) was amazing. Penetration was in the appropriate range for all tests except for the auto glass. It went a bit deeper, but still within an acceptable range.

I won't quote penetration depth as I don't have the figures in front of me, so I don't want to put incorrect data out there.

The Federal Bonded round was consistent throughout the various tests. Consistent is a good thing.

We conducted the following tests:
bare gel
auto glass
FBI - two layers of sheetrock spaced 4" apart, followed by light cloth (flannel) covering the gel block
4 layer denim

After the bare gel testing, to be honest, testing the 55gr Silvertip in the other tests was probably a waste of time and ammunition.

When I rolled the flannel off of the block after the Silvertip was shot, the bullet jacket was pulled out of the gel. The jacket was stuck half in the flannel, half in the gel.

Johann explained that all three rounds were performing as they were designed to do. His class lecture was similar to his video on their LE website. He states that the industry has designed three levels of penetration, based on what the end user wanted. These three rounds are examples of the three levels of penetration.

Friday Winchester is coming out. I'm interested to see what they have to compete with the Federal Tactical Bonded rounds.

Sorry if this got long winded... Coffee kicked in.

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

The new Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr TBBC bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3), as well as the older .223 55 & 62 gr TBBC bonded JSP's (LE223T1 & LE223T3), the new 5.56 mm Win 64 gr bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B), and the new 5.56 mm BH 50 gr TSX are the BEST general purpose loads available for LE use today.

The .223 Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, .223 Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP), along with the Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT also work reasonably well.
quote:


Originally posted by Beat Trash

The Federal 147 gr HST out performed in all categories except for the auto glass.


Am I correct that this load is not a +P load?

Is this load different from the Federal Classic Hi Shok 147gr? I think it's the Federal 9MS.
quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
The new Federal 5.56 mm 62 gr TBBC bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3), as well as the older .223 55 & 62 gr TBBC bonded JSP's (LE223T1 & LE223T3), the new 5.56 mm Win 64 gr bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B), and the new 5.56 mm BH 50 gr TSX are the BEST general purpose loads available for LE use today.

The .223 Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, .223 Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP), along with the Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT also work reasonably well.


It's funny, most all of those are great for whitetail.

-ESSAYONS-

Thanks DocGKR. I purchased a case of the old Hi Shok for a very good price. I guess I can use it as my training ammo while I look for some better ammo to carry. Do you find the good non +P 147gr loads to work just about as well as the +P 124gr and 127gr loads?
All of the Speer short barrel loads use different bullets and powder selections than their "regular" cousins with the sole exception of the 9mm 124 gr +P load, which is identical, as it could not be improved any further, since it was already working optimally in short barrels.

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