Buy cheap, buy twice...

..Or. parts are just parts...
Or, It's just as good as.

This was sent to me, and apparently from another forum. The poster has put 8500 rds downrange with this gun

================================================



Put this thing togather before I knew better. Its a cast Oly Lower with an Oly LPK & Accuracy Speaks trigger group. The upper is a Bushmaster 1:9 M4 with Bushmaster BCG (semi auto and unshrouded).

I have had to replace the mag catch, bolt catch, action spring, extractor spring, firing pin, firing pin retaining pin a couple times and the gas tube once. The aimpoint was one of the first things to wear out. The dot even with a fresh battery is no longer bright enough to use in bright sunlight.

Surprisingly the gas rings & extractor have never been replaced. I bought a Spikes full auto BCG to use in it then decided not to use it and run the semi QPI BCG until it breaks.

Its as reliable as any of my builds using Colt & LMT parts. It even runs reliably with Tula since i cut the throat with a 5.56+ reamer. Accuracy is still fine. No keyholing or anything.
==============================================

In the past 10 years, i have never replaced a mag catch or bolt catch.

I have never replaced a gas tube.

I have replaced a firing pin retaining pi, but never a firing pin.

Filthy 14 has over 43,000 rds down range and doesn't keyhole

I may have been just lucky, but my armory is mostly BCM, with some LMT, Larue, Noveske, SIW and Colt.

A lot of these guns have 20k plus downrange.

This poster has made my case....

Original Post
I can't decide if that guy is making the case for or against his frankengun...first he says "before he knew better" and then he says it's "as reliable as..."

WTF? And I wonder if his Aimpoint is really an Aimpoint or a clone from the interweb.

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

quote:
Filthy 14 has over 43,000 rds down range and doesn't keyhole


Have you guys sandbagged it and shot groups? I'm sure for what the gun is used for shooting groups at 100 yards really isn't all too important, but I'm intrested to see what effect that round count has on a BCM barrel.

I wonder what went wrong with that gas tube when mounted to a semi-auto rifle...
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
..Or. parts are just parts...
Or, It's just as good as.

================================================
blah blah blah... Oly blah blah... Oly blah blah... Accuracy Speaks blah blah.... Bushmaster blah blah... Bushmaster blah blah blah... had to replace the mag catch, bolt catch, action spring, extractor spring, firing pin, firing pin retaining pin a couple times and the gas tube once. The aimpoint blah blah blah... Spikes blah blah blah....

Its as reliable as blah blah blabbity blah...
==============================================

This poster has made my case....


And among all those just-as-good-as manufacturers, one stands out (assuming his Aimpoint is an Aimpoint and not a cheap Chinese crone) for its customer service above and beyond, and for the cost of a phone call he might even get repair/replacement with no muss, no fuss and minimal outlay because that manufacturer places value on quality and reliability.

"I always wanted to be a priest or a fireman; now I'm both." - Fr. Mychal Judge, OFM; 11 MAY 1933 - 11 SEP 2001

I got issued a Bushampster at work, 14.5" M4gery.
After I had the chamber reamed to 5.56, and dropped a Colt BCG and H buffer and spring into the gun it ran like a champ.

I shouldn't have to replace major parts on a factory new gun to get it running right.

Just sayin.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

quote:
Originally posted by bp7178:
quote:
Filthy 14 has over 43,000 rds down range and doesn't keyhole


Have you guys sandbagged it and shot groups? I'm sure for what the gun is used for shooting groups at 100 yards really isn't all too important, but I'm intrested to see what effect that round count has on a BCM barrel.

I wonder what went wrong with that gas tube when mounted to a semi-auto rifle...


No.
I am not interested in the intrinsic accuracy of a carbine.
You are correct that at close range it means little. Even a bad barrel will shoot good at 50yds, and Filthy 14 has shotsome 2" groups from prone at 50 yds, which meets the mil standard for the gun.

When you consider that the average shooter- regardless of MOS, Rate, Job Title or employment, hobby/ whatever is generally a 6-10 MOA shooter anyway... Wink

If i had a facility where i could lock things in, have soe degree of consistency etc, i would have run a series of groups at interval.

However, i don't, so i'll settle for reliability
I am SICK to death of trying to explain this shit to people, i dont know how you are still sane Pat.

Sidenote;

Bolt catch.

A former Team Mate of mine came out for a few days of training maybe 6 months ago Pat. 3 to 4 years ago he had purchased a brand new LMT carbine and this was the first time he had ran it.

This happened within the first mag.


I posted it on my FB page and had 3 guys (Including two MODS from here) sound off that they had had the same issue with LMT bolt catches on guns built/purchased during that same timeframe..so we surmised there was a bad run of them out and about.

One of the fellas that works at another training center had the bottom of one break on a brand new Rock River here not too long ago as well.

Some of us are just unlucky Wink

"Stay angry my friends"-the most dangerous man in the world.

 

"All hat, not much cowboy" Big Sky Brewing Co.

 

" I am Godzilla, YOU are Japan" -Critical Bill

Buck- there are those who question my sanity... Big Grin

Re the LMT bolt catches. We saw one as well. They also had a run of lowers where the PG screw hole was mis-aligned.
However, the had a no load *QC* gut at the time, and the problems apparently disapeared with him.

Back to sanity. Shit does make me nuts sometimes.
The *just as good as*, the *my frankengun is as good as*, the *parts are parts*, and the *why pay more for a name, they are all the same* bozo's are apparently on a PT Barnum flow.
He may not have said "there is a sucker born every minute" but it is often attributed to him.

Whatever, you can't confuse their reality with facts.
That was the ONLY time I've ever seen the bottom portion of a bolt catch break.

We had RR replace over 140 uppers because of defective barrels, etc. To this day, they are telling us that the uppers receivers are "mil-spec", but you see (no shit eyeball) a noticeable difference in rail size compared to my Colts, LMTs, and BCM uppers.

Moral of the story is don't buy a hobby gun and expect it to be a work gun.

Celer * Silens * Mortalis

 

I pledge allegiance, to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands -one Nation, under GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

I had a brand new LMT break it's bolt catch exactly the same way, IIRC I purchased it in 2006 or 2007.

GIs carrying 1911s defeated Axis forces, including Austrians. The 1911 was winning battles and saving lives before Gaston Glock was even born - somewhere along the way we probably figured out a thing or two on combat handguns." –Larry Vickers

Pat, you read my write-up on high rd count BMs.

I posted the same thing over on ARF and took a ton of flak from the "just as good as" crew.

I'll never run my personal rifles as hard as we did at work (or as you do), I just don't have the time or money, but I want that high level of reliability in my rifles. And considering the minuscule difference in cost, I don't see any reason to put cash into a modern "hobby rifle".
quote:
Originally posted by In2Deep:
That was the ONLY time I've ever seen the bottom portion of a bolt catch break.

We had RR replace over 140 uppers because of defective barrels, etc. To this day, they are telling us that the uppers receivers are "mil-spec", but you see (no shit eyeball) a noticeable difference in rail size compared to my Colts, LMTs, and BCM uppers.

Moral of the story is don't buy a hobby gun and expect it to be a work gun.



Roger Brother.Unfortunately, there are too many who see otherwise.
I wouldn't take a rra gun if it came with a blow job
quote:
Originally posted by tcba_joe:
Pat, you read my write-up on high rd count BMs.

I posted the same thing over on ARF and took a ton of flak from the "just as good as" crew.

I'll never run my personal rifles as hard as we did at work (or as you do), I just don't have the time or money, but I want that high level of reliability in my rifles. And considering the minuscule difference in cost, I don't see any reason to put cash into a modern "hobby rifle".


Roger Joe, and i agree 100% with you.

Why settle for mediocrity??
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
Why settle for mediocrity??


Alot of folks will point to price.

However, when you start adding up the cost of replacing parts, not to mention the frustration, missed training opportunities, etc. and not knowing your gun's reliable, the frankengun crowd isn't coming in ahead in the dollar chase either.
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
quote:
Originally posted by In2Deep:
That was the ONLY time I've ever seen the bottom portion of a bolt catch break.

We had RR replace over 140 uppers because of defective barrels, etc. To this day, they are telling us that the uppers receivers are "mil-spec", but you see (no shit eyeball) a noticeable difference in rail size compared to my Colts, LMTs, and BCM uppers.

Moral of the story is don't buy a hobby gun and expect it to be a work gun.



Roger Brother.Unfortunately, there are too many who see otherwise.
I wouldn't take a rra gun if it came with a blow job


Well I would take the blow job if she was hot and gave a good bj; sale the rra, and go to the bunny ranch...have to look at positives...
quote:
Originally posted by Dog Off Leash:
...the frankengun crowd isn't coming in ahead in the dollar chase either.


I disagree; I think they are, because most of them never run their guns hard enough or long enough to break the shitty parts they bought.

"Rule #1: Use your good judgment in all situations. There will be no additional rules." - Nordstrom's Employee Handbook

One of the worse thing is when you try to educate LEO's on the finer points of being picky about thier weapons. The majority just dont want to listen. Their argument is " Well, when I qualify once a year with 30 rnds, it works fine" . When I taught a multi agency patrol rifle class year before last, during the classroom portion, I go over the differences of not just rifles but optics , etc. Still, some of those guys still have BM/OLY rifles and BSA/cheapo magnified optics they zeroed at 25y, crap slings etc. You just can't get it through thier heads.My second most repeated phrase from Pat " Whats cheaper than 1 cop? 2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

quote:
You just can't get it through thier heads

Something thats worked for me. Educate their wives.

"Stay angry my friends"-the most dangerous man in the world.

 

"All hat, not much cowboy" Big Sky Brewing Co.

 

" I am Godzilla, YOU are Japan" -Critical Bill

Makes me wish I had discovered this forum way back before I started getting AR's back in December of '08. I got kinda swept up in the whole buy scare back then. I bought what I could get and afford. Needless to say, when that first barrel hit around 9000 rounds or so, it started keyholing madly - nothing I could do to fix that, I at the time thought it was due to copper fouling. Nope, it was due to the barrel being a hunk of shit - 1/9 non-chrome lined barrel of unknown providence.

My rifle is still a HUGE frankengun, but it runs - mainly due to me going back and replacing it piece by piece from the best parts I can afford. It's been to 4 carbine classes, plinking, and some 2gun, and it's still going strong. Yeah, it wasn't economical in the least, but it was my first evil black rifle and I wanted to hang on to her.

But if I knew then what I know now, I could've probably done a bit better.

Live, learn, and drive on I suppose.

_________________________ Striving to not have my head up my 4th point of contact.

The other aspect to this discussion that still surprises me is how defensive people get when discussing their choices. Trying to help them make an educated choice seems to come across to them that you're calling their baby ugly, even if they don't own it yet.

Budgets being what they are these days, we've taken the approach in the showroom of "Just be aware of what you're getting into". They want a Bushamster or whatever because they know the name, and ask "is it a good rifle?" There's a couple aspects to that: first, what's it going to be used for? If its gonna see 5 or 6 hundred rounds a year, it'll probably be adequate for their purposes. The other aspect is value for the outlay of cash. For a relatively small increase in the budget, they can get a duty quality gun that will do everything they need, and allow them to go a couple levels or more beyond that. But, because they don't know the names BCM, Daniel Defense, etc., etc., they get defensive about their choice not being the best value for their hard earned duccats. It's your money, spend it how you want to, but my info comes from far better sources than just me. Promise to come back and say "You were right" if you have issues with it. Some have.

Those of us who know must save those that don't from those that think they do.

"If you count 'three', mister, you'll never hear the man count 'ten'".-John Wayne as Sean Thornton in The Quiet Man

My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.-Exodus 22:24

quote:
For a relatively small increase in the budget, they can get a duty quality gun that will do everything they need, and allow them to go a couple levels or more beyond that. But, because they don't know the names BCM, Daniel Defense, etc., etc., they get defensive about their choice not being the best value for their hard earned duccats. It's your money, spend it how you want to, but my info comes from far better sources than just me. Promise to come back and say "You were right" if you have issues with it. Some have.


And that is the sad part. There are a lot of people who seem to take some form of perverted delight in telling one and all how much money they *saved* by buying a hobby gun, and how stupid everyone else was.

Just like the OP in this instance.
Had that conversation so many times this deployment, "So I was thinking of getting an AR..." and usually when I ask them what kinda gun they plan on getting or get asked about good brands to buy and give them an honest answer they get all defensive. Somehow they come off like they know more about the topic then I do and thus, my knowledge is inferior to thier original choice. Everyone in my platoon knows I'm the go to guy for guns and gear. When I tell em something is shit, somehow I come across like I kicked there fuckin puppy in the balls. A few have listened, more or less and with trial and error have gear that works for em (also how to set up your shit so you can ACTUALLY climb over a wall if needed AND fight). Then suddenly, AWG gives a advanced shooting class to a few of them or they talk to some of the SF dudes (or just eye-fuck their kit) and BAM! literally 90% of the shit I've been telling them becomes sacrosanct truth and THEY are the enlightened ones. Institutional inertia and lack of common sense and attention to detail is fucking amazing. I got fucked with for having 3 quality knives, expensive ones, but effing quality (2 Striders and a Zero Tolerance) while my squad leader literally had a 100 $20 dollars or less "made in china" specials.

A MAJ who I worked with briefly had a Mako surefire foregrip/mount he bragged about being so awesome (very much so one of the "good enough/just as good as" crowd member), but in a week of me being out and about, the fucking thing broke in half when his weapon tipped over. I never said "I told you so" but the look on my face said volumes.

One of the dudes last night tried telling me he could order a WHOLE AR15 to his house, just because he had it in some inbox off an online store.

One of the old Morter PL's I keep in touch with ACTUALLY fucking listens (after several stinkers he bought, like a Judge). Now he has a Noveske midlength, an N6 on the way and a few other very nice guns that he can enjoy for YEARS w/o worrying about much breakage, if any. He is so much more happy with those guns then the ones he bought earlier. Hmmm, I wonder why?

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

Coming from the very low speed civilian world, the "buy quality" advice still holds.

Obviously no where near as critical as a working gun for you guys, but when I take a class it's a huge expenditure for me. I'm taking vacation days, time away from my family, traveling somewhere, staying in a hotel, paying for food, expending a chunk of ammo, etc. It's a big deal.

I'm there to learn, not doink with gear. I've been the guy with gear problems (Glock 23 with a TLR1 that refused to run) and it was very distracting. Until I solved the gear problem I really wasn't paying attention to the class. It was embarrassing and got me to thinking "these people think I'm an idiot" instead of "what was the underlying lesson to that last drill".

Years ago a good friend pushed me towards quality, BCM, Aimpoint, LaRue, etc. Training class are far more beneficial because I can concentrate on figuring out how my gear setup was fubar, swapping ideas with other students, and actually hearing what the instructors had to say. When an instructor stood behind me they could focus on my shooting technique, not trying to diagnose why my rifle was puking.

I don't share this to brag but only to highlight that the civilian "as good as" group never seem to factor in the opportunity cost of lost training time in their price equation. Even for us there are costs to be paid (although nowhere near as high as you pros)

Saving $50 to piss away $500 of training time simply does not compute to me.

Further, imagine if I bungled a self defense situation because I spent time screwing with crap gear instead of learning a fundamental skill at a training class. Is the loss of my wife or child worth the "savings" then?

Again, just coming from the very low speed civilian side here.
I own a POS rifle, a DPMS A15 with an HB. I haven't encountered problems, YET. I bought the rifle before I knew anything about the platform, other than how to zero/qual with it (Army BCT/AIT training). Mine does have M4 feed ramps, but still... For the reasons stated in this thread, the AR stays in the safe, and I'll turn to my Mossberg 590A1, Arsenal SGL21 or one of my Glocks (all proven fighting weapons), should I need to defend myself or my family. I plan on assembling an AR, based on quality parts from BCM, but cash is short these days. Oh to think of the money/time I could have saved had I been a member of this site sooner... I hope other un-informed people will tap into this knowledge base prior to making an unwise purchase.

-ESSAYONS-

quote:
Originally posted by Haji:
The other aspect to this discussion that still surprises me is how defensive people get when discussing their choices. Trying to help them make an educated choice seems to come across to them that you're calling their baby ugly, even if they don't own it yet.


This is true about everything, not just guns. Even on this board I see it happen. For some reason people can't come grips with the fact that they aren't Gods gift to humanity and that they may have made a bad decision.
________________________________ Do not pray for lighter loads; strive for stronger backs.
quote:
Moral of the story is don't buy a hobby gun and expect it to be a work gun.

]

This exactly. Our Office got Bushmasters and I had to put up my personally owned Colt with all the tricks on it. These were new, but several already had problems with them just operating. One of the Range Instructors (term used very loosely) told one of my troops he just needed to clean it. It's brand new with less than 50 rds. through it!

Of course, I can't talk with the Captain who is the main Range Instructor as he has been to all (meaning the entire universe) armorer classes as he knows everything. My favorite comment when we asked about night sights for our Glocks was, "You need to be shooting not looking at the sights!".

Wild Bill
As well as cutting corners will eventually come back to bite you if you use your carbine at anything approaching hard use, people should also be aware that spending a LOT of money does not guarantee that you will get performance superior to good quality, factory offerings.

In economics, it's called the point of diminishing returns, the point where spending x amount of dollars no longer gives you y amount of return. In fact, after that point, the more you spend, the harder it is to see any return.

Quality manufactuers are what they are for a reason. They have figured out the sweet spot of performance v. value. For example:

-Because of our AWB, years ago when I picked up the AR platform, I built the entire rifle from scratch. Using PWA (LMT) lowers, I built an SPR type rifle. I used a Noveske 18" SPR barrel, which I had re-contoured to the SPR profile. I hunted down the OPS Inc brake, used a LT Stealth upper, a LT 13.2 rail, a Young NM BCG and KAC sights.

Now call it a frankengun if you like but that sucker was a terror. Accurate and never gave me an issue like all of the other ARs I built. But, for all of that money, labor and hunting down of parts, I get a LT Stealth 18" upper. It is to this day the most accurate AR rifle I have ever seen. And all it required was opening a box and placing it on a lower.

In short, I couldn't out LT the LT factory. For a LOT less money and aggrevation, I had what I wanted along with the far from not considerable "you're not happy, we're not happy" guarantee. Try that with an upper built from seven or eight different company's parts.

You can build a quality, reliable frankengun. The question is, unless you really, really like the adventure, why would you? I have all factory Colt, KAC and LT rifles now. I made them AWB compliant. They are great fifles with factory support. And the money you save can buy a LOT of optics and ammo.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

 

BLACK RIFLES MATTER!!!

 

FORTUNAE BENEFICIUM QUOD VETERIS

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

quote:
Originally posted by Wild Bill:
quote:
Moral of the story is don't buy a hobby gun and expect it to be a work gun.



This exactly. Our Office got Bushmasters and I had to put up my personally owned Colt with all the tricks on it. These were new, but several already had problems with them just operating. One of the Range Instructors (term used very loosely) told one of my troops he just needed to clean it. It's brand new with less than 50 rds. through it!


We had one of the local municipals buy a bunch of them and they had nothing but problems. They're trying to figure out a way to get rid of them now and buy Colts.

"Hold my beer and watch this"

quote:
Originally posted by Consigliere:
As well as cutting corners will eventually come back to bite you if you use your carbine at anything approaching hard use, people should also be aware that spending a LOT of money does not guarantee that you will get performance superior to good quality, factory offerings.

In economics, it's called the point of diminishing returns, the point where spending x amount of dollars no longer gives you y amount of return. In fact, after that point, the more you spend, the harder it is to see any return.

Quality manufactuers are what they are for a reason. They have figured out the sweet spot of performance v. value. For example:

-Because of our AWB, years ago when I picked up the AR platform, I built the entire rifle from scratch. Using PWA (LMT) lowers, I built an SPR type rifle. I used a Noveske 18" SPR barrel, which I had re-contoured to the SPR profile. I hunted down the OPS Inc brake, used a LT Stealth upper, a LT 13.2 rail, a Young NM BCG and KAC sights.

Now call it a frankengun if you like but that sucker was a terror. Accurate and never gave me an issue like all of the other ARs I built. But, for all of that money, labor and hunting down of parts, I get a LT Stealth 18" upper. It is to this day the most accurate AR rifle I have ever seen. And all it required was opening a box and placing it on a lower.

In short, I couldn't out LT the LT factory. For a LOT less money and aggrevation, I had what I wanted along with the far from not considerable "you're not happy, we're not happy" guarantee. Try that with an upper built from seven or eight different company's parts.

You can build a quality, reliable frankengun. The question is, unless you really, really like the adventure, why would you? I have all factory Colt, KAC and LT rifles now. I made them AWB compliant. They are great fifles with factory support. And the money you save can buy a LOT of optics and ammo.


This should be a stickie...

as a happy bcm owner, I have to say spending right the first time is the only way to go....

in the film business we have this saying...


"there is never enough money to do it right- but there is always enough money to do it again...."

I guess that woks if its someone elses money....

Ezkiel 25:17

I bought my first AR in 1968- a Colt SP1 (yes, i still have it..)

The Colt's were hard to come by, and i did some frankenguns- EA lowers and (no) Quality Parts ( pre-bm) uppers.I learned...
Later i bought some bm, because that was all that was avaiable.
I learned some more
I bought a bunch of Colt's one at a time up until the ban started, as by that time i knew the difference.

Now i have mostly BCM, with Larue, Colt, LWRCI, Noveske and S&W represented as well.

I don't have the issues with guns going down because i buy good guns, use good magazines to shoot good ammo.

That is a clue...
I can see someone putting together a quality frankengun, mine went like this:

Noveske Barrel
BCM Upper
BCM Auto Bolt Carrier Group
Larue Rail

Now the true test of it really *cough* wasn't. I had maybe 3k rounds through it when I parted with it. No problems. Sometimes the perfect carbine isn't exactly whats on the bravo website in the buyers eyes, hence why I did what I did. LWRC hasn't given me any hiccups either and I've fallen back on that for my training gun needs. Realized SBR's aren't in the cards for me about a year ago and sold the upper. With the chance I could up and PCS to a state that is not keen on NFA items, it wasn't worth the hassle. Some day however. But the expense to order, ship, and assemble the rifle itself was far in excess of what I could have gotten off of Bravocompany's website now. Or maybe that was just the Triple Tap... Wink

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

Jeff Gonzales made an interesting comment one time.

He said that he didn't know there was any issue with the M16/M4 system until he left the Navy.

For my own part, I see fewer issues on a military range than I do on a civilian one, and those all due to magazine or, occasionally, a rifle that needs to be evac'd to the BSB for parts replacement.
- Sacrosanct...I had to look that up
-I was issued a BM once, what a POS
-An armorer I once knew, replied with this when asked about a "fun gun"..."it wont be any fun if it doesn't work"
-When I'm asked about guns and gear at work, my now standard defensive response is..."its the greatest gun/gear ever...buy two"

Its just not worth arguing/educating the unwilling anymore. You can lead them to water, but they will likely drown.
After a long disertation, with facts about why a Colt is better then DPMS, a SureFire is better then whatever you bought at Lowes, why Eagle is better the blackhawk, etc I'm generally met with the response of...."yea but..."

Fine, buy what ever you want, don't ask me anymore.

It is fun to bring in a $500 helmet with a $600 nod mount on it, just to show them what they are missing. And the powers that be, that I know what they think they know, ya know?

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

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