Californicated Defense Rifle, August 4, 2016

Well since I have taken my evil guns out of California, I need to update my bolt action blaster.

I have a stainless steel 5.56mm Ruger M77.  I want to mount iron sights, a muzzle break and 3 power illuminated scope.

Ruger's  have a proprietary scope mounting system for which there is an rear  iron sight kit.  This fits on the rear scope mount .  I would put the scope on a single ring on the front sight mount.

Would a bird cage muzzle break be appropriate or would a Vang compensator type modification be more appropriate.

I would like recommendations for parts, preferably from Brownell's since none of the shops around here are interested in helping.  I will also be doing this to a .308 rifle in the future.

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

“Do not leave the humans unsupervised.  Seriously.  Get a supply of safe animals for  the humans to bond with or they will make their own.  I mean, they will try to befriend anything they come across anyway, but without any permanent pets, they can get ... creative.  Don't even get me started on the time one of them taped a knife to one of our auto-cleaners and named it Stabby."  Bekka Tiddalk

 

Original Post

I believe NECG makes the rear sight kit. In the 7.62 case,  get the Ruger GSR, polymer stock (definitely major handling difference vs the laminate) and the XS sight rail if necessary though for an Aimpoint it's not .

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

I have an older version of this

http://www.ruger.com/products/...lWeather/models.html

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

“Do not leave the humans unsupervised.  Seriously.  Get a supply of safe animals for  the humans to bond with or they will make their own.  I mean, they will try to befriend anything they come across anyway, but without any permanent pets, they can get ... creative.  Don't even get me started on the time one of them taped a knife to one of our auto-cleaners and named it Stabby."  Bekka Tiddalk

 

If you didn't already have the Ruger, I would have suggested looking at the Mossberg MVP Patrol. Uses AR mags, has iron sights and a rail, and already has a muzzle brake. Don't know if it's legal in California though.

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

dan187 posted:

If you didn't already have the Ruger, I would have suggested looking at the Mossberg MVP Patrol. Uses AR mags, has iron sights and a rail, and already has a muzzle brake. Don't know if it's legal in California though.

I looked into those. A reputable store/smith in my AO said he won't stock them because of the poor quality.

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It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.

The .45-70 is the only government I trust

 

Joined: 1/30/06 3:34 PM - Location:MA

Have you checked prices lately?

Besides it's more fun to play with your toys and modify them, which is what I used to do with  my evil guns. 

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

“Do not leave the humans unsupervised.  Seriously.  Get a supply of safe animals for  the humans to bond with or they will make their own.  I mean, they will try to befriend anything they come across anyway, but without any permanent pets, they can get ... creative.  Don't even get me started on the time one of them taped a knife to one of our auto-cleaners and named it Stabby."  Bekka Tiddalk

 

Malpaso posted:
dan187 posted:

If you didn't already have the Ruger, I would have suggested looking at the Mossberg MVP Patrol. Uses AR mags, has iron sights and a rail, and already has a muzzle brake. Don't know if it's legal in California though.

I looked into those. A reputable store/smith in my AO said he won't stock them because of the poor quality.

Good to know. I haven't really read much about them, but the concept seemed good.

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

Yeah Dan, the bolt design for it to use STANAG magazines involves a small "flipper" on the underside of the bolt.

It's very interesting design, but I'm not sure of the long term endurance and reliability of such a small part essential to function when there are simpler, more reliable designs available.

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

I'd suggest an NECG rear sight with a banded front sight if one is available to fit your barrel OD.   I've also put three front sights on rifles with off sized barrels using a ramp from  Brownell's and JB Weld. The original plan was to see if I liked them then get them properly drilled and tapped but after several hunting seasons they are still holding in there. 

I'd try to fit an RDS to the front action bridge for use out to 2-300 yards and forget any muzzle device  

Then I'd get a good lever gun. 

22F posted:

Yeah Dan, the bolt design for it to use STANAG magazines involves a small "flipper" on the underside of the bolt.

It's very interesting design, but I'm not sure of the long term endurance and reliability of such a small part essential to function when there are simpler, more reliable designs available.

Yeah, I started reading about them after this started. I would think that making the bolt have a face the same as an AR bolt and chamber to match would be easier. Heck possibly even use AR barrels and a nut to attach. However, the fact that no one that actually engineers these things has done that, tells me it might not be so easy.

Troy makes a pump action AR, not an ideal firearm in the perfect world, but they claim it is 50 state legal. Seems like it would be a decent option when compared to a lever action.

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

Haven't shot the Mossbergs but have handled several. Might be a valid idea for a general plinker and utility gun but they felt rather flimsy and I don't know if i'd want to use one for defense by choice when the Rugers exist.

 

That, or a properly equipped .30-30/shotgun pair. I grew up in CA and went through the majority of the '94 ban there, I spent a LOT of time thinking about what to use if semi's went away....  One of the reasons a No.4 Mk1 was my first rifle.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

If I had to I'd go with a slide action. I like the look of the Troy guns, but if it had to be more fudd-sensitive, I've enjoyed all the Remington 760/7600s I have shot. They make extended mags, it comes in many calibers and you can get a pistol grip + AR buttstock if that is your way. 

Dunno why everyone puts the lowest quality buttstocks, and huge sights on cheapass rails, and rails where your hand goes, but this is food for thought still: 

This place has a variety of stuff from useful (adapter to put a Magpul SGA forearm on a 7600) to rather stupid (complete free-float front end): https://www.cleaverfirearms.co...cts.aspx?Search=7615 Never used them, but interesting products. 

ETA: I had a vague recollection Remington made a patrol rifle version. They do. Called the 7615. I guess the photo above is that, fucked up. Remington's page: http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

Aside from the too long butt, this is a nice one. Quality ghost rings and all. Trim the stock, add a rail for a T1, a way to get a light (mod to take a shotgun one?), figure out a sling and you are off to the races. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

A friend went down this road a few years ago. 10 Rd Eagle mags. Remington  youth pump .308, 3x Acog mini, etc. It would group about 4" with good ammo and 6" with South African ball. It made two trips back to Remington, who told him it shot within spec both times. Apparently, the spec is "improved cylinder". I think he ended up using it for a tent peg.

Go with the Synthetic Ruger RGSR and a tube of valve grinding compound to slick up the bolt. 

A mate of mine has the Remington 7615.

It was in the running when I selected my Mistress.

Out of the box items I didn't like:

Length of pull is too long.

Trigger was average.

Mag release was a major pain in the arse. It works for AR's, but needs an ambi catch for that weapon.

 

Here Down Under, they're the poor man's rapid fire weapon. Commonly derp'ed to the Nth degree by wannabe wankers.

 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

A friend bought a Remington 7615 when they first became available and found the accuracy to be poor and reliability worse.   Getting caught with a pump AR15 by indoctrinated law enforcement is still going to result in seizure and legal difficulties while they try to figure out what it is  

With the possibilities after this election cycle I'd lean toward a levergun in a non military easily reloadable caliber  in Cali.  Install a set of ghost ring sights, add a WML and RDS. Learn to shoot one/load one.  

Why the love for lever guns? I know 22F is making the best of it with his... But this is the US, and we have options. A lever gun would be my second to last choice, ahead of a single shot break action. Lever guns have been bypassed by technology since the 1890's.

Longeye posted:

Why the love for lever guns? I know 22F is making the best of it with his... But this is the US, and we have options. A lever gun would be my second to last choice, ahead of a single shot break action. Lever guns have been bypassed by technology since the 1890's.

In my case, I have many thousands of rounds through lever guns, far more than any other platform, including the AR. I'm too long in the tooth to learn a new system. While it may or may not be the best option for everyone, it is the best one for me.

---------------------------------

It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.

The .45-70 is the only government I trust

 

Joined: 1/30/06 3:34 PM - Location:MA

My lever guns are capable of using ammo that was available during the last ammo shortage because I could cast bullets and load for them.  10 rounds is < 30 rounds but still not a flintlock.  Normal level Google-fu should yield video of some lever gun work that is pretty impressive.  I'd much prefer a good lever gun to a bolt gun for HD / SD work.

Finally the modern Marlin rifles (be wary of the Remington built guns) are almost as easily modified or repaired by user level owners as an AR rifle.

Longeye posted:

Why the love for lever guns? I know 22F is making the best of it with his... But this is the US, and we have options. A lever gun would be my second to last choice, ahead of a single shot break action. Lever guns have been bypassed by technology since the 1890's.

The OP is in California not the US, his government won't be happy with mere citizens owning arms designed after 1776.

IF you can run a lever gun, they can be a thing. A bit like shotguns where the cycle time is fine, but reloading is a specialized skill. I ran an 1895G as my primary rifle for no good reason for about two years, and finally gave up. 

I have especially fat thumbs, and the right one is marginally deformed so is very, very stubby. I can't really shove .45-70 cartridges into the gate very effectively. Used some other models in .44 and .357 and have had similar difficulties. But I know others who do just fine with it. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

My optimum in a non-permissive state is a modified Lee-Enfield.  The one I have pictured below is actually a No4 Mk1 that was converted by Navy Arms/Gibbs Rifle to mimic a No5 "Jungle Carbine".  It is light, handy, has a 10 rd magazine that can be quickly loaded with stripper clips or a magazine change.  I once shot it in a side match after finishing a pistol match.  Using stripper clips, I finished middle of the pack against semi-autos (I was the only bolt gun), which included AR15s, AKs, an HK91 and a FAL.  The only thing that would make it better in my opinion would be a change in caliber.  My preference is 7mm, either Mauser or 7mm-08, but for ease of ammo availability, .308 would be better.  The rifle can handle it, I just can't find the original 7.62x51 conversion kits and having a custom job done is prohibitively expensive.  If you stock up on .303 however, it is a good gun.

Lee-Enfield No 5_a

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

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Whatever California legal long gun you choose, it's important that the flash hole be clear, the frizzen be hardened and the flint be properly shaped.  : )

 

On a serious note, I like the idea of a sturdy milsurp bolt gun like Enfield pictured above but the levers and pumps are also interesting.  It would likely be easier to mount a light on something like the Troy pump or a Steyr Scout.  

From my and a few friends experiences living in gun hating NY bear with me as there a few things to post.

 I had a Mauser FR-8 for a while. Picked it up when they coming in at $175. Took about 2 years until the accessories/ tools  (sling, sight & maintenance tools etc.)  came into the country. It shot good but was a bit brutal on recoil. I was gonna do it up all "Scout like" and what not but after figuring things out money wise, I bought a Steyr Scout in .308 , a bunch of mags never looked back & learned that gun well.  Maybe it was the stock on the FR-8 but I never had an issue with the Scout in the same caliber. I sold it (FR8) recently to free up some money, it was box stock and by this time I had all the tools /accessories for it  and the collector I sold it to was thrilled. Parts breakage on this rifle would have been a showstopper  but then again will probably be the same until Steyr sells repair parts OTC from Midway or Brownells.

I had a Winchester 94(?)  in 30-30 I bought when i lived non-gun NYC. I went nuts buying ammo for it in every type of round I could find. Mounted a 3x9 scope, either Leopold or Nikon on it and it was so-so in accuracy dept but it only needed to be MOT (Minute of Thug) . It took a while to run it right and there were no way near the optic, stock etc options  around then as there are today. Its viable in these environments as most people don't even see that type of gun as a threat...yet! For some inane reason , when sheep see black polymer they get nervous. Get a laminated wood stock in some bright and cheerful colors and all is well! I kept this gun after leaving NYC but eventually sold it to fund other things. I regret it as it was fun and practical too! If something broke on this I think I could repair it myself although I never had issue with it so I'll never know.

My good friend in NYC bought a Rem 7600 in .308  for HD right around LA Riots.  He had an 870 since he was 10 and knew his way around it. The 7600 gave him headaches since day one so he sold it and picked up an Rem 7400 autoloader. I advised against it as Id heard from a few guys that theres were for shit in reliability , accuracy etc. Well his worked well after breaking in and worked until  it failed when he was deer hunting in PA and missed a nice buck.  He never figured out what went wrong and even a trip back to the factory didn't reveal anything. Luckily he brought a 1911 in his stand that day to annoy any black bears that decided they wanted to try Italian that day!  He never had faith in the rifle after that so back to his tried and true 870s.

Writing this pisses me off in regards to that OP has to even worry about this, I mean WTF  do "they" (read dumb fuck politicians)  really think there going to accomplish with shit laws and regs? Alright off my soap box... 

It's only an issue until the revolution.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai posted:

It's only an issue until the revolution.

To have a revolution, there must be revolutionaries (not couch and keyboard commandos), in adequate quantities. How many members does LF have? Likely not enough I fear.

---------------------------------

It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.

The .45-70 is the only government I trust

 

Joined: 1/30/06 3:34 PM - Location:MA

Malpaso posted:
Dorsai posted:

It's only an issue until the revolution.

To have a revolution, there must be revolutionaries (not couch and keyboard commandos), in adequate quantities. How many members does LF have? Likely not enough I fear.

The revolution will be started prematurely by idiots who fail to plan. (I'm looking at you, militias)  Once they're out of the way, people will be begging for experienced leadership. That's when you step in.

Joined: 1/14/08                   Location: Central Wyoming

The Ruger GSR is more or less a current production Jungle Carbine, except it's accurate.

 

Quick change (reliable) magazines. .308. Aperature sights. Mauser type action won't break. Can be modified for a light easily enough. If you don't have a scope in the way, running a bolt is right quick. With a full size Aimpoint mounted on the rail or front ring (depending how you want it) for the first 10 rounds, a GSR could probably hold up pretty well. Not 30 round mag dump quick like an AR, but for what it is, assuming you're not swarmed by 10 bad guys and/or miss a lot, it can probably do ok.

 

Cooper wasn't right about everything (even he admitted it) but a five or ten round bolt gun, short and handy, can still handle an issue if there's only one or two bad guys. Not my first pick, but in CA, options are a lot more limited. A GSR backed up with an 870 would make a formidable pair.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

I'm leaning on a 20 guage shotgun with folding stock for another Cali gun and a travel gun.

i just got back from Utah and took only my glock 19. Would have have felt much better with a long gun too. 

I know Utah is gun friendly but is there a possibility that a Amercian with Mexican heritage traveling through with a black rifle or ak could make some cops  uncomfortable? A shotgun in 20 guage would take some of the edge off. Also allow me to carry different type of rounds. Birdshot, buckshot, slugs.  

I have never been to good with a bolt action and never owned a lever gun. I do have a mossy590 

I tend to not think much of 20 being less enough of a shotgun to be worth the effort in having a different cartridge. Also, you start getting availability issues. My experience is that low recoil rounds (or if you must, things like the Aquila super stubby things) will more than compensate for recoil of a 12 ga. Also can get recoil absorbing stocks, just change to hollow plastic from wood, etc. 

Also, there are interior ballistics. I am assured (and it was demonstrated so seems valid) that a shorter shot column is always better. The longer it gets, the more shot is in contact with the barrel, making it less round, and therefore getting more uneven dispersion, having more variable and poor penetration at terminal, etc. etc. Pronounced at .410 and apparently why they fell out of favor, but it's my understanding that normal 20 ga loads have relatively longer shot columns than 12s so are less accurate and less efficient.  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

I tend to not think much of 20 being less enough of a shotgun to be worth the effort in having a different cartridge. Also, you start getting availability issues. My experience is that low recoil rounds (or if you must, things like the Aquila super stubby things) will more than compensate for recoil of a 12 ga. Also can get recoil absorbing stocks, just change to hollow plastic from wood, etc. 

Also, there are interior ballistics. I am assured (and it was demonstrated so seems valid) that a shorter shot column is always better. The longer it gets, the more shot is in contact with the barrel, making it less round, and therefore getting more uneven dispersion, having more variable and poor penetration at terminal, etc. etc. Pronounced at .410 and apparently why they fell out of favor, but it's my understanding that normal 20 ga loads have relatively longer shot columns than 12s so are less accurate and less efficient.  

Something else....during the ammo craze a couple of years back I remeber 20 guage being in great supply but 12 guage being hard to find.  That is another reason for leaning on a 20. If I don't find one affordable but find a affordable 12, I will go 12. I will go folding stock even though I prefer straight stock. I want said shotgun to fit in a long duffel bag.

Bestcounsel, see the Travel Gun thread. Due to budget and availability, at the moment my "car gun" when an AR is not around is an 870P with a Choate folding stock. Of all the folders out there, the Choate seems to be the least fucked up (and most compact) in the fixed length model. Currently LE so as long as I stay in TX an AR is not really an issue, but if I need a "more compact than a 16" AR" fully assembled and available in a hurry, the 870 with six rounds of Flite Control is at hand.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

I was thinking about this over the weekend. Since a lot of people like the .308 when unable to run an AR, why not a Garand? They can be rebarreled to .308, or left in 30-06, either round is good in my opinion. They are quick to load, semi auto, and legal most everywhere. Downside is size, they are big.

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

I would be tickled pink with a T-26 "Tanker" Garand in .308.  On my dream list.  However....in a bolt gun, one of the pluses is being able to run commercial .308 and 7.62x51.  Since the Garand is sensitive to gas variations, you'd need to play around with one of the adjustable gas plugs or risk damaging your op rod.  

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Yeah, you would have to tune the Garand to the load you wanted to run for defensive purposes. 

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

The NECG rear peep sight that  fits the Ruger integral mounts is somewhat a pain to zero as it tends to slip when tightening elevation.  Not a problem if you are a person who only shoots one load.

The Ruger rear sight for the Gunsite rifle rifle will fit any of the 77 models and requires drilling just one blind hole (doesn't need to be threaded) and I think makes a better option.

NECG's banded ramp front sight would be the way to go for the front sight if there is a dia. that matches your muzzle diameter.

Ramp: http://www.brownells.com/rifle...t-ramp-prod9656.aspx

Sight blade; http://www.brownells.com/rifle...piece-prod81594.aspx

Rick R2 mentions using JB Weld for sight attachment.  I haven't used it but know others who have and all are trucking right along without a problem.

 

Dorsai, I like the little jungle carbines and the fact the action cocks on closing.  I know one of the Mauser's claim  to fame was cock on opening but it seems to require more energy compared to the cock on closing when you are already slamming the bolt home and doesn't have the tendency to torque the rifle over.

 

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