Compact non AR Rifle

This topic is kind of a bridge between the 9mm/556 truck gun topic and the travel gun topic. 

Specifically I'm looking for the following:

-non AR style weapon, the pros and cons of  AR style rifles and pistols have been discussed at length

-Must be rifle or intermediate caliber 556, 300blk out, 6.8spc etc.. if 556, barrel length must be at least 10.3 inches

-Weapon must have some kind of stock/ pistol brace

-Weapon can have collapsible or folding pistol brace. If weapon has folding pistol brace weapon must be under 24 inches in length with the brace folded. 

-If it is a bull pup style, rifle must be less than 29 inches overall length.

-Weapon must not fall under the NFA.

-Does not matter whether its piston driven or direct impingement. 

-Weapon must be readily available no one off custom guns. 

-Weapon must be semi automatic and box magazine fed. 

 

Original Post

AK pistol with brace?

______________________________________________________

 

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - R. Heinlen

 

Joined:  1/30/05           Location: Graham, Wa

Steyr AUG A3 M1. With a 16" barrel it has an OAL of 28.15".

http://steyrarms.com/steyr-aug-a3-m1.html#

I just got an A1 last week. I put 400 rounds through it yesterday and I'm happy I got it. 

------------

"One of the nice things about being around other soldiers is they will suffer your bullshit gladly, knowing sooner or later you will shut up and listen to theirs." - Jim Morris, War Story

 

"The military was strange like that. In the middle of the night you run into a major problem that requires you to put your faith in someone you never met before and probably would never see again. But that person knocks himself out to do his job and helps you get on with yours." - Harold W. Coyle, Team Yankee

Besides the aformentioned Tavors, AKs, and AUGs:

  • CZ 805 Bren
  • Sig MCX/MCX Virtus (do these count as AR-style?)
  • Sig P556
  • Robinson Armament XCR
  • FN FS2000
  • IWI ACE Galil 7.62×39mm (if your barrel length issue doesn't apply to Soviet calibers)
  • IWI ACE Galil 7.62×51mm
  •  Zenith Z-43P
  • Lithgow Arms ATRAX
  • DSA SA58 Tactical Pistol
  • PTR 32K PDW
  • Desert Tech MDR
  • Kel-Tec SU-16C (an inch too long, but it's a pretty unique choice given its price point)
  • Kel-Tec RFB
  • Kel-Tec RDB
  • B&T APC300

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

dan187 posted:

AK pistol with brace?

I had been planning on this with a Zastava M92 PAP, but have totally changed direction with my plans  

With SB 47 brace 26” OAL. 

W/O brace right about 20” OAL  

10” barrel. 

A “Krink” style brake probably makes it 2 to 3” longer. 

Mojo/Mark
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Vincent from "Collateral"
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Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

You didn't say semi-auto, so I'll throw in a lever gun, e.g., Marlin carbine in .44mag

[Pat] reading is fundamental [/Pat] Thanks Mojo!

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Malpaso posted:

You didn't say semi-auto, so I'll throw in a lever gun, e.g., Marlin carbine in .44mag

“-weapon must be semiautomatic box magazine fed. “

He did specify. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

Default.mp3 posted:

Besides the aformentioned Tavors, AKs, and AUGs:

  • CZ 805 Bren
  • Sig MCX/MCX Virtus (do these count as AR-style?)
  • Sig P556
  • Robinson Armament XCR
  • FN FS2000
  • IWI ACE Galil 7.62×39mm (if your barrel length issue doesn't apply to Soviet calibers)
  • IWI ACE Galil 7.62×51mm
  •  Zenith Z-43P
  • Lithgow Arms ATRAX
  • DSA SA58 Tactical Pistol
  • PTR 32K PDW
  • Desert Tech MDR
  • Kel-Tec SU-16C (an inch too long, but it's a pretty unique choice given its price point)
  • Kel-Tec RFB
  • Kel-Tec RDB

This ^^ The Sig MCX Virtus meets the non AR requirement because it doesn’t use a buffer tube. 

Great list anyone have any experiences with Bren or the XCR? 

Any rifle or intermediate type cartridge is fair game as long as the cartridge won’t suffer performance issues being fired from a short barrel (ex 7” barrelled rifle in 556).

ChoreBoy posted:
Default.mp3 posted:

Besides the aformentioned Tavors, AKs, and AUGs:

  • CZ 805 Bren
  • Sig MCX/MCX Virtus (do these count as AR-style?)
  • Sig P556
  • Robinson Armament XCR
  • FN FS2000
  • IWI ACE Galil 7.62×39mm (if your barrel length issue doesn't apply to Soviet calibers)
  • IWI ACE Galil 7.62×51mm
  •  Zenith Z-43P
  • Lithgow Arms ATRAX
  • DSA SA58 Tactical Pistol
  • PTR 32K PDW
  • Desert Tech MDR
  • Kel-Tec SU-16C (an inch too long, but it's a pretty unique choice given its price point)
  • Kel-Tec RFB
  • Kel-Tec RDB
  • B&T APC300

This ^^ The Sig MCX Virtus meets the non AR requirement because it doesn’t use a buffer tube. 

Great list anyone have any experiences with Bren or the XCR? 

Any rifle or intermediate type cartridge is fair game as long as the cartridge won’t suffer performance issues being fired from a short barrel (ex 7” barrelled rifle in 556).

Chris Bartocci compared the Bren favorably against the SCAR, in terms of technical features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hszQokt-IZI

The Czechs have also been using the Bren as their service rifle for a couple of years now, no huge issues that I'm aware of, though I'm just a random Internet dude that reads a lot; they are moving to the 806 Bren 2, which is an improved version (lighter weight, non-reciprocating charging handle, etc.), but who knows when that'll get to the USA. I'll also note that CZ has a sweet pro deal if you qualify.

Out of my own list, and what was previously mentioned, I'd probably look at the AUG for bullpups (nyeti can be a big resource there), and the Bren 805 for conventional folding stock/brace if you give zero shits about manual-of-arms differences from the AR, MCX Virtus if you do care. If you want a .300 BLK, the B&T APC300 would be an interesting alternative to the MCX line, if you can find one (not sure if they were imported to the USA).

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

Default.mp3 posted:
ChoreBoy posted:
Default.mp3 posted:

Besides the aformentioned Tavors, AKs, and AUGs:

  • many things

 

stuff

...Chris Bartocci compared the Bren favorably against the SCAR, in terms of technical features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hszQokt-IZI

The Czechs have also been using the Bren as their service rifle for a couple of years now, no huge issues that I'm aware of, though I'm just a random Internet dude that reads a lot; they are moving to the 806 Bren 2, which is an improved version (lighter weight, non-reciprocating charging handle, etc.), but who knows when that'll get to the USA...

Was fondling one just today. Super lightweight, controls ergonomically very good, nice folding stock (easy to use, locks solid), stunning trigger if you can handle two-stage (which I like). The only weird bits:

  • Stock riser is snap on, not adjustable
  • Cannot cycle the bolt with the safety on. 

Hard to justify for $2000, but if they'd given me good value on the sale I brought in I might have gone trade instead, and own it now. 

Apparently the Mk2 or whatever it's called is "in" the US and is coming sometime as the GCG had seen (shot?) one at a demo day and he told me about the differences, wants that for himself when they become available to buy. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

M1 Carbine?  Simple, magazine fed, fairly lightweight.  Get one with a folding stock and it's basically what you're asking for.  Different direction altogether.


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

Kaja here is Czech army and issued the 805. Might wanna ping him.

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Doug Mitchell posted:

AC-556s, I think. Even then, it always amazed me that former SF would spray and pray on group therapy and never hit a thing.

Even happy family dramas have the occasional car crash, cancer, etc. There may be nowhere safer on TV than in front of the A-Team's Rugers. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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I currently have a pawn shop rescue Inland M1 Carbine as a truck gun. I put it in a repro para stock, fits right in the center console or a S.O.Tech Go Bag. Is it the perfect thing to get into a gunfight?  Probably not, but I consider it a descent balance of having a rifle I can use, while having something that is easier to explain to a LEO than something more tactical.  

Please note: not an aspiring inner city "yout" trying to turn my life around...  one "g" two "oo's" like NPH's 80's era TV show.  

 

If you have to ask your buddy if you are on fire, you are four to five seconds behind the "stop, drop and roll" power curve.

DocGKR posted:

Cytez has a good idea--M1 Carbine.

Cytez, DocGKR and EODDOOGIE are on to something. Get one of these, feed it with Hornady 110 Grain FTX Critical Defense, and you're good to go:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/carbineuscal30m1-2.aspx     

http://www.fulton-armory.com/c...neuscal30m1-2-1.aspx        

With a little judicious shopping you can probably find an original M-1 Carbine and modify it accordingly and maybe save yourself some money.  Overall length folded will be about 26", a little longer than what you're looking for but still very compact.

Being a legacy US military weapon, it will be familiar to many without being as intimidating as a modern black rifle.

Spacetaco posted:

I have a Beretta ARX-100.  I got it this year when Botach had the Black ones on sale for $800.  Right now they have them for $850.  I know Pat had some knowledge of them and it has a folding stock that is useful.  

The ARX-100 is too long for ChoreBoy's original criterion, and they don't make a pistol version.

Same goes for the M1A1s, it appears, although with the 18" on those, you could probably cut it down to size. I'm curious as to how does the .30 Carbine compare to 5.56×45mm or the Soviet calibers, particularly against intermediate barriers.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

I remember reading years back on STOPINGPOWER.NET about a 30 carbine load made by CORBON in their DPX line that was as barrier blind as a 30carbine could be. I don't see it on their website now though.

...it's not the arrow, it's the Indian 

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

.45ACP Because sometimes short, fat and slow will do the job.

"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war let it begin here." Captain John Parker, to his Minute Men on Lexington Green, April 19, 1775.

GLOCK10MM posted:

I remember reading years back on STOPINGPOWER.NET about a 30 carbine load made by CORBON in their DPX line that was as barrier blind as a 30carbine could be. I don't see it on their website now though.

Midway, Cheaper than Dirt, Ammunition to go....all show as having the Corbon DPX load for sale. It’s pricey, $35/box of 20. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

aegis305 posted:
DocGKR posted:

Cytez has a good idea--M1 Carbine.

Cytez, DocGKR and EODDOOGIE are on to something. Get one of these, feed it with Hornady 110 Grain FTX Critical Defense, and you're good to go:

  .30 Carbine Ammo  

The only test on the 110gr Hornady FTX I could find was by  "RangeHot.com", it wasn't a very good performer in that test.  The 20 rounds fired into bare gelatin gave an average of .47" expansion which is similar to the 110gr Federal Power-Shok, and the average penetration depth was 21" which indicates a potential to over-penetrate.

Based on testing and current availability, I'd suggest using the Remington 110 gr JSP or the Prvi Partizan 110gr JSP as the primary defensive/duty load in the M1 Carbine.  Both rounds have shown reliable expansion (.525" to .64")
in both bare gel and intermediate barriers, and penetration between 13-to-17.8 inches.

The 110gr Speer Gold Dot and the 100gr Corbon DPX are both discontinued
, supply is limited.

MWL posted:

I have to ask this, but why not an AR15?

Regards.

Mark

The AR15 has been discussed at length and the pros and cons are pretty well known. There hasn’t been much information as far as other platforms that can fit the above mentioned requirements. 

But if the AR15 fits all the requirements including effective ammunition, apart from being an AR15, why look at other platforms?

Is this just an academic exercise, or do you need something else, because you can't have an AR15?

It's kind of like asking what other cars you can use for Nascar, because you want to race in Nascar, but don't want to use a Nascar, and then spend hours/days/weeks discussing the pros and cons of F1 cars, top fuel dragtsters, etc. for use in Nascar.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

MOJONIXON posted:
GLOCK10MM posted:

I remember reading years back on STOPINGPOWER.NET about a 30 carbine load made by CORBON in their DPX line that was as barrier blind as a 30carbine could be. I don't see it on their website now though.

Midway, Cheaper than Dirt, Ammunition to go....all show as having the Corbon DPX load for sale. It’s pricey, $35/box of 20. 

None of those places have it in stock, and haven't in some time.  Anyone that has some will be selling it for more than the old MSRP of $35/box before it was discontinued by Corbon.

Lots of reasons for not wanting an AR/M4.  Don't want to draw the attention of "the Man"/HH6.  Want something to leave in the vehicle that's not as expensive.  Want something that doesn't say "Shoot me first" if you do deploy it.  The thing about why I recommended the M1 Carbine was 1) they take up a smaller footprint than an M4.  2)I thought they would cost less (didn't realize modern versions where around the $1500 mark).  3) they don't scream "evil black rifle" if someone sees it  4) the M1 carbine, unlike the 9mm AR, actually has an effective round at distance.

Mine is not to question, mine is just to make a suggestion.


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

Depending on reliability and performance,

http://www.cabelas.com/product...2369565.uts?slotId=1

Folding stock equipped for 900$

Location Texas.

 

"So what are you gonna do if we get hit on this trip?" "Me?, I'm going to shoot some good pics of you nuking their ass. You do your job, I'll do mine. If I have to do yours,(unless you're the medic) we're probably all screwed!" - Standard reply , from Desert Storm through Iraqi Freedom

com cam guy posted:

Depending on reliability and performance,

http://www.cabelas.com/product...2369565.uts?slotId=1

Folding stock equipped for 900$

I have one of these and while I seem to be in the minority according to some reports, mine has been spot on so far albeit only with hardball and only as a range toy...I have less than a thousand downrange and it has run well so far. All of that said, magazines are the key to the carbine. Good mags, usually the 15 rounders, are what seem to the be the overall key to this weapon. I have a couple of 30s that have been flawless but from what I hear that is not always the norm.

Overall fun weapon with little to no recoil and less muzzle blast than most and a lot of potential if you want to use it for defense.

M. Wilson posted:
MOJONIXON posted:
Malpaso posted:

You didn't say semi-auto, so I'll throw in a lever gun, e.g., Marlin carbine in .44mag

“-weapon must be semiautomatic box magazine fed. “

He did specify. 

What about a full auto lever gun?

https://m.facebook.com/story.p...p;id=221685384522096

Um . . . . Holy shit. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Moustache_6 posted:
aegis305 posted:
DocGKR posted:

Cytez has a good idea--M1 Carbine.

Cytez, DocGKR and EODDOOGIE are on to something. Get one of these, feed it with Hornady 110 Grain FTX Critical Defense, and you're good to go:

  .30 Carbine Ammo  

The only test on the 110gr Hornady FTX I could find was by  "RangeHot.com", it wasn't a very good performer in that test.  The 20 rounds fired into bare gelatin gave an average of .47" expansion which is similar to the 110gr Federal Power-Shok, and the average penetration depth was 21" which indicates a potential to over-penetrate.

Based on testing and current availability, I'd suggest using the Remington 110 gr JSP or the Prvi Partizan 110gr JSP as the primary defensive/duty load in the M1 Carbine.  Both rounds have shown reliable expansion (.525" to .64")
in both bare gel and intermediate barriers, and penetration between 13-to-17.8 inches.

The 110gr Speer Gold Dot and the 100gr Corbon DPX are both discontinued
, supply is limited.

Underwood is making a .30 Carbine 85-grain Cavitator Round that looks promising in gel testing if you're in a situation where over-penetration is not a concern:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4NHSMcnSd8

 

 

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

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