Failure to incapacitate

http://www.ohio.com/news/37986589.html

quote:
Man accused of killing wife is still in jail

Published on Wednesday, Jan 21, 2009

Beacon Journal staff report

The man accused of shooting his estranged wife and holding their son hostage from police remains jailed. Daniel Tice, 32, appeared in Akron Municipal Court Tuesday morning still showing the gunshot wound that ended an eight-hour standoff with police this month. He is charged with aggravated murder in the shooting death of his wife, Brandi Tice, 28. Daniel Tice was shot by police once in the forehead while he was holed up in the basement of his Martha Avenue home. The shot fractured his skull. Tice underwent surgery at Akron City Hospital and was taken Friday to the Summit County Jail, where he is being held in lieu of a $1 million bond set by visiting Judge Michael McNulty. Family members say Tice was angered over his wife's affair with a family member and her demand for a divorce. He is accused of shooting his wife in the living room, taking his son and holding police at bay for eight hours. His 4-year-old son was not harmed. The couple's two daughters, 8 and 7, were kept from the home when they returned from school. SWAT members worked their way inside the home and shot Tice with an MP5 assault rifle after failing to subdue the 6-foot-1, 280-pound man with nonlethal bean bags fired from a gun.




Regarding the 9 mm hit—the point of aim is a bit too high and looks like it may be on a curved portion of the skull. You actually want to target the eye-sockets, especially with a handgun round to avoid projectile deflection from the skull (this happens more frequently than people expect).

Don't bring pistol caliber weapons to the fight if you have the option of using a rifle...
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
Don't bring pistol caliber weapons to the fight if you have the option of using a rifle...


Wow, no kidding. In your opinion, would a 5.56 penetrated?

Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón.

 

Joined: 10/11/07                  Location: Colorado Rockies

I wonder if a heavier pistol bullet would have been enough to not just fracture, but penetrate the skull. Too bad the 9mm did not.

This seems easily possible to me if it did hit a curved portion of the skull and hit at an acute angle as well. I doubt the shot was straight on or close to it.

I recall an article somewhere where a police officer that had already been in a gunfight was looking for a HP bullet that was partially spiked in efforts to dig into bone better to avoid deflection upon impact. Can't remember what magazine/article/author but I do remember the photos of the bullets pretty clearly. They looked NASTY.
6' 1", 280 lbs. This guy is a load.

Look at that melon head...I would imagine that a man this size...his bone structure, etc., is probably much heavier than the average 6' 1" guy who weighs, say 170-180.

Wonder if the SMG rd was ball or HP?

Gary's point is well taken: about two inches lower and the good citizens of Ohio would have been saved a lot of tax money, feeding and housing this moron for the rest of his life.

ATW... Mike

I recall reading an account of a Gurkha in the British Army who was shot in the head twice on two different occasions. On one of the incidents, the .577 bullet bounced off and killed a nearby officer. I have also read plenty of accounts of bullets glancing off the skull and traveling around the head just under the skin.

I was always taught that the target zone was between the eyebrows and the mustache. And on that note, I've saved the picture and the story. They'll get printed out for future classes I take when someone complains about the missing the cranio-ocular box and says a shot in the forehead is just as good.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by mspight:
6' 1", 280 lbs. This guy is a load.

Look at that melon head...I would imagine that a man this size...his bone structure, etc., is probably much heavier than the average 6' 1" guy who weighs, say 170-180.

Wonder if the SMG rd was ball or HP?

Gary's point is well taken: about two inches lower and the good citizens of Ohio would have been saved a lot of tax money, feeding and housing this moron for the rest of his life.


I am no longer surprised to hear of this sort of thing. The human body is full of surprises.

My father was hit from behind by 50 BMG in the left thigh - and it didn't blow his leg off and it didn't incapacitate him immediately. He didn't know he was hit until after a few more steps, he noticed that his boots felt wet on the inside. He might have weighed 100 pounds soaking wet in those days.

Baby Face Nelson was hit 17 times - by a mix of mostly 45 ACP hardball - and he lived long enough to kill the FBI agents who shot him, and long enough to get back to his car and tell his friends, "I think I've been hit".

Shot placement seems to have far more to do with how something performs, but it's not an easy thing to do.

Big, supposedly extra lethal rounds and multiple hits don't seem to be a guarantee - you really, really have to get entry into a very small vital area, penetrate all the way through that structure, and even then, he might not drop on the spot.
--- Do you know what your sin is?
Nice GTAs. I'm going to share these with some co-workers. Thanks again Doc.

------------------------------------------------------

* Eric

 

We must be able to apply the appropriate degree of force and discrimination, demonstrating a complete businesslike attention to detail; and if necessary, we must be able to kill with ruthless efficiency. -- MSG Paul Howe

 

Joined: 9/27/05              Location:  WI

John,

Similar story regarding my former Father in Law. He was a US Army Artillery Officer during WW 2, and spent about 3 years in the Pacific.

Assigned as what would be a Regimental FSO to an Inf Regiment, he finally received his "Million Dollar Wound" on Saipan. He took a round from a Japanese sniper that stuck the front of his helmet, penetrated the steel pot and liner, struck him around the hairline on just above his forehead, traversed his head between his scalp and skull, then exited out the back of his helmet.

He still has that helmet...

ATW... Mike

An acquaintance of mine who served during OEF got head-shot by an AK47, through his ACH, about an inch posterior of the "X" in DocGKR's side profile CNS target picture.

The round penetrated his skull, and punched its way out the other side at about the same location. I'm not a doctor and I don't know exactly what miracle happened there, but from what anatomy I know, I can only imagine the bullet chose to take a path around the brain itself, through the Dura or something.

As he related the story to me (with pictures), he was standing there, and then BANG he was on his ass, he figured one of his buddies had table topped him or tackled him, but when he went to get back on his feet, one of his mates shouted for him to stay down and that he was going to be OK, and it wasn't for another couple seconds that he realized he was even hit.

FWIW same guy had a mortar land between his feet like a lawn dart and by chance it was a dud.

Morals of the story?

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice: Multisystem trauma will incapacitate faster then a single wound.

The Human body is an amazing machine and will overcome unspeakable trauma, assuming you have the proper mindset to fight & live.

You can't count on "Knockdown power" to do your job for you... shot placement!

Sometimes being lucky is best.
Now if we could get a similar story about the 40 and 45, maybe people will stop looking at the caliber and focus on more range time.

Pat Rogers on DPMS - "With so many good options available, even considering looking at a hobby gun as a purchase is analogous to a mortal fucking sin"

quote:
Originally posted by Mark McGrath:
Now if we could get a similar story about the 40 and 45, maybe people will stop looking at the caliber and focus on more range time.


Not a headshot, but involves .40S&W.

A 40 Caliber Nightmare Is Caught On Tape

________________________________ RISK ... Strive for that moment when you're only a slice of pizza and a hooker away from paradise.

Perhaps this is why we speak of "shooting people in the face" rather than merely "in the head." When I heard 'face' I always thought of the eyes as the target area for some reason. Doc's graphics clarify why that is so.

Just to add another "not all head shots are fatal" story, a friend of mine was shot in the mouth with a .40S&W HP when he was a teen. It destroyed several teeth, broke his jaw, and tore up his tongue before stopping near the back of his neck. Had it been a combat situation (adrenaline and mindset come into play) it would not have been immediately incapacitating. [Side note, he had completely recovered by the time I knew him and the permanent damage was negligible enough to allow him to be put on flight status.]

Maybe a bit off topic, but would it be germane to discuss under what circumstances you would choose a face shot over a center mass shot? Range, weapon system, cover available to the target, movement, training, etc.

====== Stepping on ur comms, while ur teams r in a tic

quote:
Originally posted by M18ClaymoreAPERS:


Not a headshot, but involves .40S&W.

A 40 Caliber Nightmare Is Caught On Tape


Nice! I must admit however these guys who are caliber crack whores read all the bad shit about say the 9mm (see above story) and just like gun myths they make themselves believe crap.

Thanks to DocGKR and several others I have seen the light(looks for his caliber bible).

I guess some shits wont learn, then again I wont learn about alot of crap apparently.

Pat Rogers on DPMS - "With so many good options available, even considering looking at a hobby gun as a purchase is analogous to a mortal fucking sin"

quote:
When I first started in law Enforcement one of the local Departments my brother worked for had training videos of 9mm rounds deflecting off car windshields. One of the reasons I decided to never carry a 9mm for duty.



.45 ACP ain't much better. If you ever get the chance to safely do so, place a target of some type (we used a styrofoam ice chest) in the front seat of an old car, or maybe your ex-wifes car, whatever. Anyway, taking proper safety precautions, shoot it with your handgun of choice. It is amazingly hard to get good hits on someone inside a car. Take into account the natural tendency for shitheads to be bullet sponges, and it's not wise to count on much of anything to penetrate though a car body, either windshield or sheet metal, and do much more than incur superficial wounds. The Speer terminal ballistics workshops are educational as hell, also.

The only thing I have personally seen that I would consider effective on a turd in a car was M8 API from a M2 machinegun. It was effective.

*******

Joined 08/26/03   Location:  Southern Oklahoma

I worked with an older Doc that always referred to the skull as the "cranial vault". Makes sense, since it's so hard to get into. Thick, curved bones to protect the brain inside. Bats, 2x4s, fists and bullets all tend to glance off.
The bones that make up the eye socket are no where near as thick or strong as the bones of the skull.

Dave

"Keep that cheap, wail'n slut quiet!" A.J. Maggott

If humans were easy to kill, there wouldn't be so many, if any, of us walking around today. Evolution and fate do some crazy things.



I think the moral of the story as already mentioned is shot placement is absolutely essential.


A rifle round probably would have done the job, yet you will never know.
quote:
Originally posted by fpdsniper:
Bullets do some strange things, that and apparently God was looking after this fool today.
+1. some people are hard to kill.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude:
quote:
Originally posted by fpdsniper:
Bullets do some strange things, that and apparently God was looking after this fool today.
+1. some people are hard to kill.


I'll weigh in with a +1. For what its worth, I've seen hadj go down in a hail of 25mm, only to jump back to his feet and sprint off down an alley. We found him later and he was mortally wounded, but still.

On annother note, I wonder if these guys were using a supressor for some reason, that would be one more reason for a lack of penetration.

____________________________________ "These aren't "Warrior" Tasks, they're "Soldier" Tasks! "Warrior" tasks would involve things like pillaging."

quote:
Originally posted by In2Deep:
shot placement...shot placement...shot placement...


+1000000000000

I know I've shared this before, but the best example of this I've ever seen was several years back. We had a summer of daily, and often multiple times daily shootings. One day I responded to a guy shot point blank with a 30'06 as he dove away from the shooter. Projectile entered under his left ass cheek, traveled up and across his torso and lodged in his right shoulder. He lived. The next day I responded to a guy shot under the left arm, just below the arm pit with a .22. Walking, talking, climbed in the "big white bus" himself and off to the hospital they went. They got 1 block from the scene and he bled out. About as stark an example as you can get. A large rifle round, expending all of it's energy inside a person, stretch, temporary cavity, yada yada yada. You all know all the arguments. But it didn't hit or damage anything important and he lived. Rimfire pistol, hits an artery, and he's dead within a block. Shot placement...shot placement....shot placement!

De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites.

Shot placement is key.

Shooting I was involved in had the suspect taking beanbag hits in quick succession from me before having a Fed 168 BTHP Match entering his right nipple and exiting his left armpit. Suspect lived and regained most of his functioning. While the chest shot still dropped him like a sack, if you have the ability of a CNS shot it keeps the suspect from later running over a guy in a wheelchair on purpose while drunk driving....

"You have a duty to evaluate the effectiveness of your intervention!" Doc Spears Alliance OH 2012 www.10-32solutions.com Eruditio Venit Superessendam

Good info Doc, thanks.

On the car and skull front, I have personally worked two cases where a projectile ended up trapped between the skin and the skull. First was a 9mm round fired through a driver's side car window, muzzle at the glass. It went in the skin and around the skull to the other side. Second was a .40 HP round (not sure which one, too mangled) that went through the rear window of a car then through the driver's head rest, entered the skin and stopped. Both victims (and I use that term very loosely) were walking and talking when I got there. Both were released from the hospital the next day.
DocGKR,

Good info!!

Just a question, if I may. The graphic showing the head from the side shows the "X" at the cavity just between what appears to be the corpus callosum and the cerebellum. Would it not be more effective to place rounds forward and down, using the opening for the ear canal as a targeting point, to obtain more accurate targeting of the pons and medulla oblongata??? Or is the placement of the "X" due to the lessened bone density in that area allowing more effective ballistic access to the cranial vault in general???

Thank you for any info!!!

Endorphin Rush

"Think thou that these magnificent, victorious Legionnaires became what they are through some arbitrary stroke of fortune? Nay! They do not sit around congratulating themselves in the wake of each victory. They spend every moment refining and improving their craft. Without apology, they pursue excellence. Each one knows and understands that he alone stands between the empire and oblivion. Watch them! Indeed, they appear to have been born with weapons in their hands!"

quote:
Originally posted by MAC19D:
The only thing I have personally seen that I would consider effective on a turd in a car was M8 API from a M2 machinegun. It was effective.


Belted 7.62mm worked very well, I have the pictures to prove it. Admittedly my buddy used a full 200 round belt and the car looked like a pasta strainer, but it was very messy for the poor AK-toters in it.
I've worked street shootings with .40 and .45s that have done the same thing.

I recall reading an article about basically the same thing happening with a 12 gauge Foster type slug.

Read Jim Cirillo's book, he talks about this stuff quite a bit.

Personally, I like the 127gr +P+ Ranger-T round for carry.
In my testing the high velocity combined with the hard, sharp, wadcutter-ish meplat with minimal ogive makes this bullet really dig in on even angled hits, at least on sheet metal. I think this makes this a really decent load for head shots.

Anyway, look at that mope, he looks like he could take an RPG hit in that nugget.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Note the thread here, where officer is shot twice in the face and is still conscious until he gets to the hospital;

http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...91024651/m/575102111


Like I said, this shit happens, and it happens often, we just don't get the see the Mongo has a headache pictures very often.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

First, I've got to say that this guy looks a LOT like the big guy from My Name Is Earl.

Now, onto the caliber thing, this woman this woman was shot by a .44 in the face and somehow survived.

Just a little more fuel in the whole discussion about calibers Smile

______________________

"WHERE ANGELS AND MARINES FEAR TO TREAD, THERE YOU'LL FIND A CORPSMAN DEAD." - Written on the back of a dead Corpsman's shirt, the Solomon Islands, August, 1942 I'm humbled to call myself one of them.

quote:
Originally posted by Timmy: I don’t carry a gun because I think I’m going to get into a gun fight. I carry because I don’t want to miss the OPPORTUNITY to get into a gun fight.
As always, shot placement is key...

Now, the shot placement on this mope would be acceptable--- if the shooter were using a .308 sniper rifle, but not with an oversized handgun. Rifle shot (assuming straight on as in the photo)- lights out, let's go get dinner after the debrief. Even then, where the round struck is still on the outer edge of a good cranial vault shot. I'd still want it closer to the center of the unibrow...

Pistol round- regardless of caliber- waaaay too high on mongo! People seem to think that shooting someone anywhere in the head is always fatal...obviously, that's just not true.

Another question- why no follow-up shot? Did they just assume that dude would die after the first round from the all-powerful MP5 (erroneously refered to as an 'assault rifle' in the article), and then just stood back admiring their work? Just curious...

Brad
------------------------------ Why, yes, I am an Infidel- it says so right there on my license plate...
quote:
Would it not be more effective to place rounds forward and down, using the opening for the ear canal as a targeting point, to obtain more accurate targeting of the pons and medulla oblongata?


The X is the center of the target area. Unless you can guarantee hitting the X with every shot, placing it in the center of the target zone makes it more likely that you'll hit somewhere in the box. If you move it down to the ear canal, then a shot that gets pulled low and forward will miss the zone.

Don't forget, the very good illustrations reflect two static, 2 dimensional views. Visualize a three dimensional target with x in it as shown in the side view. As you rotate the head around, you're still shooting for X. The thickest bone is the forehead in front, and then the back of the head. It is thinnest, and flattest on the sides. So as your shot approaches the side, there is less likelihood of a shot glancing off.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Not to mention the fact that the target is probably moving, you're moving, and jacked up to some degree on adrenaline, etc.

Anyone have anymore info if this douchebag was knocked the fuck out or still in the game?

Celer * Silens * Mortalis

 

I pledge allegiance, to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands -one Nation, under GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Gentlemen,

All very good answers!!! Thank you.

I hope my question did not come off as being a challenge. I understand clearly what is being stated in each of the responses and agree. I was only asking due to the fact that it IS all about shot placement, as mentioned over and over again, and I wanted to get a solid idea as to just where that shot placement should be.

Sounds like everyone has the right idea on this. Thanks for the replies, guys. Happy hunting.

Kevin

"Think thou that these magnificent, victorious Legionnaires became what they are through some arbitrary stroke of fortune? Nay! They do not sit around congratulating themselves in the wake of each victory. They spend every moment refining and improving their craft. Without apology, they pursue excellence. Each one knows and understands that he alone stands between the empire and oblivion. Watch them! Indeed, they appear to have been born with weapons in their hands!"

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