Failure to incapacitate

Also on this note, I saw a article that was half decent in SWAT(Feb) where the author talks about how being shot in training doesn't mean your dead. He remarks that even if your shot you keep fighting, which I assume most people here train for.

I still see a lot of documentation stating that people will fall just because they saw it on a movie, and they only get grazed. Things to remember for people like me who are primarily self defense carry back home. This thread kind of proves this.

Pat Rogers on DPMS - "With so many good options available, even considering looking at a hobby gun as a purchase is analogous to a mortal fucking sin"

quote:
have also read plenty of accounts of bullets glancing off the skull and traveling around the head just under the skin.


My old ladys uncle is a gang banger(not the fun kind Roll Eyes) up in chicago and a while back a rival gang member just walked up to his car and shot him in the head. the bullet never penetrated his skull traveled all the way around the skin of his head and lodged in his forhead. damnedest thing i ever seen it looked like he had been shot in the temple. and it was a .45. id bet a months pay that a 556 would have perforated this fool like cake. angle and distance has a lot to do with how the bullet will deflect. id say aim for the face or eyes or whatever, but save hassle and use a m4 over the mp5. instead of sluggo there with a cool scar you get noodles.

Don't be a Liability

Jim Cirillo's books are a good read as posted above. He tells the story of coming face-to-face with a robber and emptying (or one of the other detectives doing so) all 5 rounds of his Chief's Special into the BGs face. Non fatal result.

All 5 rounds struck the hard facial bones and slid around the skull.

Cirillo actually tried to design a saw tooth bullet that would literally "saw" its way into or through bone. IIRC it was a .45 ACP with a plastic or wax tip to allow for better chambering.

MacNamara wrote:
quote:
Maybe a bit off topic, but would it be germane to discuss under what circumstances you would choose a face shot over a center mass shot? Range, weapon system, cover available to the target, movement, training, etc.


Beuford T. Justice voice "The #@$%^@#$ German's ain't got nuthin ta do wid it!!"

I can't help it, I'm 12.

I would start with the availability of the target's mass as my number one reason for choosing where to shoot. Center mass has always been the go-to area more specifically the upper thoracic area as therein are located the essentials of life retention...heart/lungs. Addressing from an LEO stand point, the vast majority of American Police shoot like shit and are encouraged to do so by most bosses who are deathly afraid of defense skills and practitioners thereof. The big portion of the body is simply easier to take aim at and lessen the chance for a miss.

The idea of law enforcement shooting someone in the head IMO is still generally left to snipers and "drug and body armor drills". Two rounds to the body and one to the head for the later(or groin which was in style and has gone out recently) The idea being that your assailant is high,is wearing body armor or both. Once this drill is complete, your semi-hits are admired while your handgun is hastily jammed back in your holster and not secured so you can race to jerk it back out again on the next string not hampered by the pesky safety features.

In the Republic of Texas, deadly force is deadly force and if it's use is justified; upper body (center mass) or face is of little consequence.

Ability, distance, and availibility of target should be the considerations IMO. Lead poisoning to the brain housing group is a fight stopper in more instances than heart and lung punching; esspecially when speaking in pistol caliber terms.

If someone needs shooting and you possess the ability/opportunity to shoot them in the face, whynot shoot them in the face?

Be prepared to answer for your faceshooting with statements such as "well that's what I thought would stop his trying to kill me in the quickest, safest manner I could think of. "

Magnusdog wrote:
quote:
Another question- why no follow-up shot? Did they just assume that dude would die after the first round from the all-powerful MP5 (erroneously refered to as an 'assault rifle' in the article), and then just stood back admiring their work? Just curious...


Seems a little harsh dude. I would just guess that shrek was not longer a threat...maybe fell down and released the kid? Maybe thats the only target afforded him? It had to have been super stressed with LL going off and so forth. I'd give the benefit of the doubt that he thought he'd dumped the dude. Who know's.

I can only carry my MP5 as a longgun in my primary job. We have a part time SWAT unit where I can enjoy my adult caliber.

08883151102

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
I recall reading an account of a Gurkha in the British Army who was shot in the head twice on two different occasions. On one of the incidents, the .577 bullet bounced off and killed a nearby officer.


Yup. Of course, there are LOTS of good Gurkha stories.

On July 6 1917 Baron Manfred von Richthofen was shot in the forehead by the rear gunner in a British bomber he was approaching. Range, about 300m, weapon probably a 7.7mm Lewis gun. It knocked him unconscious for about a minute, but he was able to recover and make an emergency landing, and returned to duty after 20 days.

http://aeromedical.org/Articles/Richthofen.html
I was trying to figure out exactly what was so weird about that guy's face. And suddenly it hit me. Among other things, that is the most pronounced uni-brow I think I have ever seen!

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
I was trying to figure out exactly what was so weird about that guy's face. And suddenly it hit me. Among other things, that is the most pronounced uni-brow I think I have ever seen!


I thought he looks like Jack Black - that's strange enough.

There's no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness.

 

Join Date: 11/18/07

Location: Northern Utah

quote:
Originally posted by Sixteen34
I recall an article somewhere where a police officer that had already been in a gunfight was looking for a HP bullet that was partially spiked in efforts to dig into bone better to avoid deflection upon impact. Can't remember what magazine/article/author but I do remember the photos of the bullets pretty clearly. They looked NASTY.


I believe the Police Officer in question was Jim Cirillo during his NYPD Stakeout Unit days. Due to this, I believe he was a huge proponent of sawtooth bullets with a wadcutter profile.(e.g, Kaswer Bone Grabber.) In fact, if I recall from reading Mr.Cirillo designed a .45 cal. Bullet that expanded into a large rectangle & had the largest recovered expansion ever seen from a .45. However, this was about the time of the "Black Talon" Media Frenzy & he felt that it wasn't politically sound to bring the round to production.

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

I had always thought that shooting was to end the threat. If you shoot him twice and the threat isn't ended, aren't you in the clear to keep shooting?

________________________________________________________
God, grant me the strength to change the things I cannot accept.

Aw, why'd they have to shoot Gomer Pyle? Confused Big Grin

Shot placement is good and all, but I think the tankers have the best policy WRT shooting things.

"Keep shooting until it burns or changes shape!"

Some other guys have a policy of "they're not dead until the head is 3ft from the body." I can honestly endorse that one too. Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. Interpret that statement as you wish. S/F.....Ken M

Most people in this world aren't worth the cost of the ammunition you use to kill them.

quote:
Originally posted by Sixteen34
I recall an article somewhere where a police officer that had already been in a gunfight was looking for a HP bullet that was partially spiked in efforts to dig into bone better to avoid deflection upon impact. Can't remember what magazine/article/author but I do remember the photos of the bullets pretty clearly. They looked NASTY.



I believe the Police Officer in question was Jim Cirillo during his NYPD Stakeout Unit days. Due to this, I believe he was a huge proponent of sawtooth bullets with a wadcutter profile.(e.g, Kaswer Bone Grabber.) In fact, if I recall from reading Mr.Cirillo designed a .45 cal. Bullet that expanded into a large rectangle & had the largest recovered expansion ever seen from a .45. However, this was about the time of the "Black Talon" Media Frenzy & he felt that it wasn't politically sound to bring the round to production.
___________________________________________________
That wasn't Jim, it was actually two of his guys. The bad guy in that shooting took 11 rounds of .38 in the face, the officers emptied a S&W Chief and a Colt DS into the bad guy's face at like 3 feet.

Jim's first shooting in the stakeout unit, included among the three bad guys he shot in that fight, one bad guy who took two hits to the head without effect before the third hit did the job.

Jim liked a sharp edged wadcutter profile, and did in fact produce and handload some of the ammo they used to shoot bad guys with. He was never able to get a factory to produce any of his designs, except for the short production of SafeStop wadcutter ammo.

All serious shooters and gun carriers need to read his book.
The opinions of a guy who walked away from 19 gunfights in five years without a scratch have weight, IMHO.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Naveronski wrote:
quote:
I had always thought that shooting was to end the threat. If you shoot him twice and the threat isn't ended, aren't you in the clear to keep shooting?


Yes. The concept of firing two rounds at a time and then assessing your target is crap IMO. Cops get so ingrained with "how many rounds in this string?" it carries over to the street alot. Couple this with instructors who are so afraid of their students that they make students speed reholster after a string or holster empty and/or locked back weapons. They make students clear weapons after every string and so forth.(I'm not talking about a paid-to-go-to class, but agency's trainers and thier respective trainees/co-workers) Empty guns are great at breaks or at the conclusion of the day, but not between strings. It just irks the crap out of me to see a locked back blaster in a holster.

When training is over, they then let these same people they didn't trust on the range, back them up on calls and clear with them real buildings with real bad guys in them. One can see where the confusion might come in.

It is my belief, and I have no idea if this is truth, that the two rounds to the body one round to the head was developed on the range as way to work in correct round counts for qualifications. This is fine and dandy but back it up with realistic training. This thread is a fine example that pistol caliber rounds are very ineffective and only the judicious application of CNS/cardio pulmonary hits will stop the criminal intent of death or serious bodily injury.

Only you can decide when your life is no longer in jeapordy. Educate yourself with law and TTP's and train accordingly.

08883151102

My initial question was also, "Why was the head shot not the third of three rounds?".But without knowing the circumstances, it is possible the cop shot what he could see at the time. If he connected once and the target disappeared from view it would explain the single hit.
However, I watch a lot of guys shoot one, check one, shoot one, check one. That habit also carries back to the street.

For what its worth, I don't think this is a caliber discussion either. If anything, without further details on catridge/weapon and the way it played out, it'd be hard to come to any conclusions.
Chet
"Little Joe 1, this is Prime Cut. You are cleared hot, over."
No need for additional comment.

This forum is the best. Why? Because you guys, as usual have nailed it in the head (pardon the unintended pun here!); shot placement.

Any other cheese-eating NON-SHOOTING couch REMFs would be screaming about the inadequacies of the 9mm.

Whenever I hear people arguing the relatives merits of the 9mm vs 45 I just tell 'em, "Hey, just get yourself a fullhouse 10mm if you are concerned about the effectiveness of your round". Again, most of these guys can't hit squat.

"It is well that war is so terrible; we would grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee's remark to Longstreet at Fredericksburg in 1862

I cannot find any info on this anymore as it didn't seem to make it to the internet. If anyone has it, post it. IIRC: Back in maybe 1982, Illinois State Police had 9 mm. An LSDd up bad guy did something that cause several agencies to get in a chase which ended on a (late night, no students) state university campus. Bad guy is shot many times, maybe 16? Doesn't go down till some good shot placement drops him.

This is my first exposure to "real men shoot .45s, that would have stopped him." Except that: It is a lie. 

Aside from shot placement issues, some agency (university police?) have 1911s, and hit him several times during this also. If that's not enough, he takes a 12 ga 1oz slug through the torso, and continues reloading. Takes a second slug (to the pelvis?) to knock him down, and he bleeds out after a bit. 

What sort of things I take away from most shooting events I know about in detail are:

  • Shot placement
  • Bring a rifle. Bring friends, with rifles
  • Some people are hard to kill. Bring more bullets

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Maybe ten or so years ago I think I read the AAR on this. Claude Warner would be my best guess of someone that could get you a source.  If this is the one I remember the shot that broke his leg put him down but blood loss killed him and he was reloading when he died. Both lungs and heart were hit eventually.

Okay, I'll admit: I have no idea who Claude is. 

Your recollection matches mine. I vaguely recall some vital hits even, but would love to see a real report. If available to the general public, anywhere. Wish I kept all my old magazines. A good writeup was in one many years ago. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

Okay, I'll admit: I have no idea who Claude is. 

Your recollection matches mine. I vaguely recall some vital hits even, but would love to see a real report. If available to the general public, anywhere. Wish I kept all my old magazines. A good writeup was in one many years ago. 

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/

Former SF, used to teach at Rogers Shooting School, all-around cool guy with a great sense of fashion (literally). Might be worth reaching out to him.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

Location: Houston, TX

This is Claude          https://tacticalprofessor.word...r/tacticalprofessor/       he is also on facebook.   The report was public and on line, I just don't remember enough details to find it.  This incident was used as an example of when someone comes to fight it takes a lot to kill them and they are out of the fight until they are dead when I took a class at Blackwater in Moyock,NC

A random memory fragment tells me that it was 95 grn JSPs shot out of Illinois State police S&W autos.

I shall go to the library and check the scrolls...

ETA: 

This one?

Page 215, Street Survival Techniques for Armed and Encounters, Caliber Press, 1980 

IMG_7179

Be emulable.

Endeavor to not suck. 

Persevere. 

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First day of Gunsite Carbine Crse, Bill J. quoted from an AAR on a recent (?) encounter (early 90s?) where the bad guy was being chased through an apartment by cops with ARs.  He was shot something like 19 times (+) with 5.56 rds and still managed to attack with a toilet tank lid.  Many of the rds hit extremities.  Sorry I cannot recall where it was etc.

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

I believe the Illinois event was in the LaSalle-Peru area in 1979. He was also hit with 2 slugs IIRC and maybe a .41 round or two. He was actually blinded by a round to the head, but was still trying to reload. Some people you just gotta shoot a lot. Some number of the hits were not short term significant, but some should have been.

My memory is consistent w/PPP's in that this was before the first real ISP load, the +P+ 115 grain load, succeeded by the 127 gr +P+.  Both of those had a solid reputation for working well with good hits.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

Doug Mitchell posted:

I believe the Illinois event was in the LaSalle-Peru area in 1979. He was also hit with 2 slugs IIRC and maybe a .41 round or two. He was actually blinded by a round to the head, but was still trying to reload. Some people you just gotta shoot a lot. Some number of the hits were not short term significant, but some should have been.

My memory is consistent w/PPP's in that this was before the first real ISP load, the +P+ 115 grain load, succeeded by the 127 gr +P+.  Both of those had a solid reputation for working well with good hits.

This is not the one I was thinking of          http://www.rantoulpress.com/op...ampkin-shootout.html

endorphin rush posted:
Gentlemen,

All very good answers!!! Thank you.

I hope my question did not come off as being a challenge. I understand clearly what is being stated in each of the responses and agree. I was only asking due to the fact that it IS all about shot placement, as mentioned over and over again, and I wanted to get a solid idea as to just where that shot placement should be.

Sounds like everyone has the right idea on this. Thanks for the replies, guys. Happy hunting.

Kevin

Anyone worth shooting once is easilly worth 5-7 more shots.

Ammunition is cheap. Your life, your families lives, your co-workers (well..most of them) aren't.

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

oldrotorhead posted:
Doug Mitchell posted:

I believe the Illinois event was in the LaSalle-Peru area in 1979. He was also hit with 2 slugs IIRC and maybe a .41 round or two. He was actually blinded by a round to the head, but was still trying to reload. Some people you just gotta shoot a lot. Some number of the hits were not short term significant, but some should have been.

My memory is consistent w/PPP's in that this was before the first real ISP load, the +P+ 115 grain load, succeeded by the 127 gr +P+.  Both of those had a solid reputation for working well with good hits.

This is not the one I was thinking of          http://www.rantoulpress.com/op...ampkin-shootout.html

Yeah, googling I found this I had never heard of either, damn bad day. 

Reading Claude Werner and some others, I think I've got a new principle: 

  • Dance with the one you brung

As a general rule, don't use your pistol to fight your way back to your rifle. When the fight starts, way too often, taking time out to go get armor, a rifle, etc. is going to get you distracted from the action, and killed. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Claude has studied shootouts extensively, he has also studied mass murderers and interviewed more than one.  Somewhere he wrote about a sovereign citizen/ police encounter in the north ND? SD? that ended in Arkansas where the sovereign citizen was killed. Only one LE survived the first encounter IIRC and he lost his index finger to a bullet and was unable to figure out how to continue the fight. Later the dirtbag or bags were killed in Arkansas. My takeaway was one aggressive attack  can be the deciding factor and two be adaptable.  If you ever get to hear Claude speak about shooting you will not be disappointed. He has also shot ISPC I think with a stubbie revolver and placed in the top third in SE Regionals.  DB knows him pretty well and he could chime in if he ever decides to put pants on and leave the house anytime soon.  If not someone could ask him a SHOT

I remember the shooting near Paxton, too. It taught me some lessons. I never went on a ride-along after that unless I was armed and had access to the officer's additional gear.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

The Medina shootout, Gordon Kahl and those early sovereign citizen nutbags, yeah. It's TV, but there's a not awful In the Line of Duty film about it you can still get on DVD. 

In the movie the AR police (IIRC) have a belt fed for the final fight months later. Not sure if real (never seen a non-tinfoil writeup of that last shootout... and MAN are there some tinfoil discussions of it) but it seemed the right level of response for those guys 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

The Medina shootout, Gordon Kahl and those early sovereign citizen nutbags, yeah. It's TV, but there's a not awful In the Line of Duty film about it you can still get on DVD. 

In the movie the AR police (IIRC) have a belt fed for the final fight months later. Not sure if real (never seen a non-tinfoil writeup of that last shootout... and MAN are there some tinfoil discussions of it) but it seemed the right level of response for those guys 

Claude has the facts on this one and others, without the "artistic license". I know he will make  speaking engagements and does some instruction too. He was at the HiTS revolver class last year spoke some and did the stubbie part of the day.

IMO sovereign citizens are like jihadist in their focus. Both are very dangerous and will not listen to reason or act rationally in a stressful situation.

 

Gunner posted:

I think this is the ND shootout youre referring to

https://tacticalprofessor.word...na-nd-shootout-1983/

That is the ND shootout I was thinking about. I still can't find the one in IL,IN or OH where a single white male late 20s early 30s fought the police after a number or GSWs that included broken leg, arm , lung shot  and I think heart shot. He died attempting to reload. This one is an example of someone in the fight until he died and an example of what people are capable of when motivated. In this case it was a shitbird.  But it should also point out thzt just you think someone is out of the fight doesn't mean they agree with you. So be very careful with believers in really anything they are willing to die for.  If someone finds the X-rays and photos you will see how  much damage was done, while he continued to fight.  At least no one had to deal with him in prison, that would have been a disaster.

 

 

"nobody understands Thomas except Thomas," Rudyard Kipling, Soldiers Three
          NE Texas

Speaking of books, and broken bones, everyone in this thread does own this, right? 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...ge?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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LX470 posted:

No but that is another good example .  Here is a little on April 11/86  plus 4 others with comments

http://www.policemag.com/chann...law-enforcement.aspx

 

 

"nobody understands Thomas except Thomas," Rudyard Kipling, Soldiers Three
          NE Texas

Here is a current one (2 days ago)

20 hits.....died from a perforating gunshot wound to the neck... had a variety of other gunshot wounds to his arms, legs and pelvic area. In addition, the autopsy found two gunshot wounds from the earlier gun battle with police that were healing.... the fatal wound to the neck perforated Vance's upper cervical spine and cut his right carotid artery and spinal cord (I'm no doctor, but that would surely work!)

 

Autopsy: Oklahoma manhunt subject shot at least 20 times-Associated PressDecember 21, 2016

Oklahoma's medical examiner said Wednesday, Dec. 21, 2016, that Michael Vance Jr. was shot at least 20 times in a shootout to end a weeklong manhunt in late October. Vance had evaded police while a suspect in the killings of two relatives and the shootings of three law officers. The medical examiner's office released the report to The Associated Press under an Oklahoma Open Records Act request. The autopsy revealed Vance was healing from two previous gunshot wounds when he died. 

Michael Dale Vance Jr. died from a perforating gunshot wound to the neck, according to the report prepared by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner. But the report also says Vance, 38, of Chandler, had a variety of other gunshot wounds to his arms, legs and pelvic area. In addition, the autopsy found two gunshot wounds from the earlier gun battle with police that were healing.

Among other injuries, the fatal wound to the neck perforated Vance's upper cervical spine and cut his right carotid artery and spinal cord, according to the autopsy report.

The manhunt for Vance began on Oct. 23 after he allegedly killed two relatives and shot two police officers in central Oklahoma. It ended when Vance was killed on Oct. 30 during a shootout on a county road near the town of Leedey, about 130 miles northwest of Oklahoma City.

Video from two dashboard-mounted cameras in Oklahoma Highway Patrol vehicles and from a helicopter that was following the chase overhead show Vance, who was driving a stolen flat-bed pickup truck, careen through a roadblock as troopers fired at his vehicle. Several troopers then joined in the chase and fired at Vance, who was returning fire with an assault rifle loaded with two 30-round magazines.

When the chase finally ended, Vance exited the truck and used it as cover as he fired several shots while the vehicle rolled toward the officers. About 30 seconds later, Vance is seen collapsing onto the roadway while troopers continue to return fire.

Vance was wanted on multiple charges, including two counts of first-degree murder. Three other people have been charged with helping Vance as he eluded authorities.

https://www(dot)yahoo.com/news/autopsy-oklahoma-manhunt-subject-shot-least-20-times-213926232.html

________________________

"It's paranoia until something happens, then it is preparedness"

"It is not whether you're paranoid, it whether you're paranoid enough"

"When did you get so paranoid?" …When they started plotting against me.

Oldrotorhead, this is one that comes to mind fitting your description?     For something  "most carefully dissected" this is the most thorough description I could find.  It was featured in the 80's in one of the Ayoob Files.  The guy was a biker and wearing a leather vest/jacket that IIRC cookie cuttered and filled the  WW Silvertip HP w/o expansion.  

Dude walked back to his bike  before deciding to die.

"One of the most carefully dissected incidents in modern gunfighting has been the 1980 Kolowski-Burchette encounter in Illinois. This unscheduled 30-second field test of 115-grain, first-generation Silvertips occurred when two state troopers stopped convicted felon and suspected killer Wayne O'Brien.

In the ensuing gunbattle, the heavily muscled and very drunk O'Brien took 13 rounds. He absorbed two hits in the cardiac sac, with one of them slicing his aorta. In addition, two slugs ripped through his neck, and others punctured his stomach, his lungs, a kidney, and his liver.

Yet with all that damage from police handgun rounds, most of which demonstrated excellent penetration and expansion, he fought on as if merely annoyed. Then he returned to his bike and died. With a fully oxygenated brain and glands pumping, the man had maintained aggression for perhaps 12 to 18 seconds after his heart had been pulverized."

http://www.policemagDOTcom/cha...-stopping-power.aspx

That is one of ISP's learning experiences, and I think that's the one that ended the bullshit about only one spare mag. (While there is plenty of Illinois that is urbanized, and it's nothing like the isolation in the big western plains states, there are areas in which backup is going to be a fantasy, or right between park and neutral.) I don't think that's one that was thought of though. IIRC, it was also written up in an Ayoob files.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

Stray Round 

That might be the incident ,but what I read was more of an AAR with x-rays photos and autopsy and not  as sales pitch for a caliber. 

I still think the lesson is how much punishment someone can take and still fight. 

IIRC a Cop inJacksonville got shot in the face with  .45 ACP continued to fight and won the fight and I think is now back to work.

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