IR Rifle Lasers for L/E

In conjunction with my question about PVS-31's, I think I may have broken through the Shell of Stupidity and made those in charge realize we need some way to accurately fire weapons while using them... (yay!). 

 

We've got $3100 sitting around to start with. Boss wants 3 IR lasers from that. I've perused TNVC and it seems doable, but asking here is free and usually results in a course change. The #1 prioritiy is IR laser, #2 would probably be IR flood, and #3 would be a visible laser. Visible laser isn't a requirement, but would be handy and smart in my opinion. 

 

This would be for SWAT use, and we do run gas masks so I can see the value in having both IR and vis lasers. 

 

Thanks for any help!

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

Original Post
Get three DBAL-A3 units....at agency price it should be right around your budget and you won't have to sacrifice one capability over another

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

Rev. Trop
Ordained Dudeist Priest at Dudeism, the Church of the Latter-Day Dude

 

I have been running a PEQ-15 (home and work), Wilcox Raptor lite, and CQBL-1s at home.  If for straight up purchase the CQBL-1 is a decent option but if there is a way to get three Stiener DBAL A-3's that would be the best way in my opnion unless you can frind some PEQ-15's or DBAL-D2's through a grant.

 

$3100 is streching it at the lower levels for three units since I do not know what the LE price is from Steiner/Beretta or L3.

 

 

*I'm not LE, jusy my 2 cents*

If this is an agency purchase I see no reason to limit yourself to the class 1 options, except maybe to limit liability but that's a stretch.

The full power DBAL A2/A3 gives you a significantly better illuminator and a much brighter vis laser (green) that is bright enough to serve as a backup aiming device even in sunlight. While a vis laser is very beneficial while zeroing, it also makes one-handed shooting easier if you lose the use of an arm (a benefit I didn't fully appreciate until I had shoulder surgery and had to end some coyotes in the yard one-handed).

If you do go the class 1 route the DBAL A3 is priced very well for mil/le at DSG and unlike most places they stack discounts on special occassions, so if you catch them during a 10% off sale they're under 1K each.

More paperwork to be done by the head of agency (Sometimes under the radar with some equipment and bosses is best..), and even though an LEO bought it, if it needs repairs and an agency doesn't submit it, there have been some companies that won't repair it for individual officers. These policies may have changed since I've had to send anything in, but I know that it was way more work once I had something that was IR-based and agency-only purchase.

 

"You have a duty to evaluate the effectiveness of your intervention!" Doc Spears Alliance OH 2012 www.10-32solutions.com Eruditio Venit Superessendam

I'm partial to the ATPIAL, but the DBAL is no slouch, and it has a green laser option.

 

At this point in the game, if you buy a laser system that doesn't have a visible and IR laser slaved, you're kinda fucking yourself. For "typical" LE engagement ranges, I'd rather have a full-featured Class 1 system over a high-power, IR-only PEQ-2.

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

Originally Posted by Blackdog:

TNVC is golden for advice on such matters.

Agreed.  I have had a number of dealings with Chip, both personally and professionally.  Dude is aces

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

Rev. Trop
Ordained Dudeist Priest at Dudeism, the Church of the Latter-Day Dude

 

+1 for DSG - they have awesome LEO discounts, and you may want to call them to see about agency discounts.

 

Not sure how familiar you are with lasers, but you may want to invest in Chappy's NVG Skill Builder DVD.  Great info, especially if you watch before spending a dime on other gear.  It would also be a great presentation for any team members who have zero experience with NVG's or lasers.  Chappy also explains the pros and cons reference red or green lasers.  Red lasers suck during the day, green lasers suck when its cold out.  Some things to consider if you do end up buying a vis laser unit, which I would recommend.  We have opened the laser door at our agency and are still working on getting NVG's, but we use our vis lasers a ton on patrol for things like marking target houses.  Again, don't know your experience level, but we don't use ours solely for engagement.

Second Shift - Raising your kids since 1892.

Reference cold and green lasers - unless you are gunning out of a moving helicopter  your unit (DBAL / similar) will function in cold temperatures.

 

Companies like Steiner are doing some neat things with diodes that are not temperature sensitive, so expect to see great strides shortly in that realm.

"I came here for one reason: to attack and keep coming.- Ultimate Warrior

 

"Americans don't deserve America." - Timmy

Originally Posted by MickFury:

       
Reference cold and green lasers - unless you are gunning out of a moving helicopter  your unit (DBAL / similar) will function in cold temperatures.


       


I've had green laser DBALs fail in 20-30* F weather. This was coming from a warm house and walking around the property for 10-15 minutes. I've been able to repeat this and with more than one DBAL, the most recent one having a manufacture date within the past year. They do not like cold weather.

Digging the info dudes. 

 

Cold? Yeah, that's a thing up here. So whatever we went with would need to be cold-friendly, although if it's an across the board thing with lasers, we could live with it. 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

It is with the vis green only. When the laser fails it either doesn't work at all or flickers and dims until it doesn't work. It does not affect the IR laser and it will work again once the temperature is brought up. I believe the exact temp cut off is around 38-39*.

LDI/Steiner is working on the issue but to my knowledge they haven't fixed it yet, at least with the class 1 devices.

Having used equal power red and green lasers in direct comparisons, my take is that I really don't care what color it is. Green is somewhat easier to pick up in daylight, but it is not a profound difference. Unless you are running some really shit hot non FDA approved laser in either color, it is not going to be a huge part of your daylight working tools. Reduced light or shadows? Yeah, it has a fit.

 

All of my fighting guns are equipped with a laser in either green or (mostly) red. It is a viable tool.

Just for reference regarding the green vis lasers and cold, we had a callout last winter when it was roughly 5-10*F and my vis laser was done for within 3 minutes.  Mine is a DBAL D2, and the other member of our team who had the exact same model bought at the exact same time (early 2014) from the same company (TNVC) had the same issue in the same amount of time.  One of our guys here bought a DBAL A3 over the summer, but we obviously haven't had a chance to test that model in those temps.  He (FSP90) or I can report back here if there are issues.

Second Shift - Raising your kids since 1892.

Around the same time, I got to stand outside a house with some close friends and their rifles.

 

Temps were -5 F with no wind. My ATPIAL stayed light up during the perimeter, callout, waiting, callout, more waiting, then breach and extract. The red laser offered no problems, and everybody knew which window I was covering. We froze our asses for about 2.5 hours, but the ATPIAL red laser didn't notice it was cold. And the Nazi shithead we woke up knew he was covered too.... 

I have a class1 A3 so now that it's starting to get colder I shall see how it fairs. My milspec ATPIAL hasn't has any trouble in the past with temps and the laser

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

Rev. Trop
Ordained Dudeist Priest at Dudeism, the Church of the Latter-Day Dude

 

There is a lot of info in here about the bonus of having a visible laser slaved to the IR. That is all true. I will say that having an IR flood is extremely important. Not having a very strong flood puts you in the same boat as a dude not having a light on their rifle. It can be done and people have for years but it's not the best idea now. Without a flood you can't reach into the shadows and dark corners to actually see threats. This can be mitigated by other IR light sources but that gets more complicated very fast. 

 

If I was buying for an agency I'd try for real mil spec PEQ-15's and push the liability and safety angle. It sucks to not get enough of what you need but you're probably better off in the long run by not accepting garbage. Your lasers working in the cold is a big deal because of your location.

 

Your department could probably buy more high-points than Glocks but when you are buying weapons wouldn't you want something that will actually work well in the environment you want to use it in? 

Originally Posted by Golf 9:

       
Perhaps the US Night Vision Triad is a good option for your budget. At $895 a piece, it provides Visible green and IR lasers along with IR flood. Looks comparable to PEQ and DBAL in size and weight, only a tad more economic.

       


What quality is this unit? Have you used it for any amount of time?  I've never heard of it before. 


Toole
"Nyeti- Leaving law enforcement at some point in life and having no idea what semen tastes like is something to be proud of, and worth more than all the "neat" stuff that the pole smokers got.

Join date: 10/21/2011   Location:NWFL
I have no personal experience with the Triad other than molesting one at SHOT show last year but I've used they're PVS-14s and they were quality units. I imagine the quality of the Triad is on par with the rest of their products and with other laser units. I'm currently on the list for a T&E but it seems like it'll take an act of congress to get one in. I'll post a review of it once i get one.
Golf 9 posted:
I have no personal experience with the Triad other than molesting one at SHOT show last year but I've used they're PVS-14s and they were quality units. I imagine the quality of the Triad is on par with the rest of their products and with other laser units. I'm currently on the list for a T&E but it seems like it'll take an act of congress to get one in. I'll post a review of it once i get one.

Any updates?

Looks like I might be getting issued a PVS-14 and I want to get a laser for my rifle (and I don't know jack shit about which one to get)

 

 

 

Joined: 10/16/10  Location: WA

I think you will find that the consensus is to get a standard Mil-Spec ATPIAL PEQ-15. They work and keep working. Switching is well thought out, achieving a zero for the coaligned lasers is simple, and the units are durable and envriomentally hardened. And they are priced very competitively.

I have been running one for a couple years now. It works. 

I have a Wilcox RAPTAR lite coming for T&E and will update if that unit significantly changes my view.

Our shit came in, we ended up with the PEQ-15's. 

Anybody got a PowerPoint or class materials on em? I thought I did somewhere in the archives but still looking. I've got a official email for it.

 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

I could use some material as well if I can piggyback.   I don't really have much legit literature or training material other than the Chappy night vision video and some stuff from TNVC.  

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

Rev. Trop
Ordained Dudeist Priest at Dudeism, the Church of the Latter-Day Dude

 

Anybody?

 

Also, kinda-sorta on topic, is anybody aware of an M-Lok style grabber that a pressure switch can fit into? I got issued my PEQ-15 yesterday and am trying to set it up. (I've actually got the Troy handguard/rail, that I'm "hoping" the M-Lok stuff will fit into? But I actually don't know yet...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

Lobster,

hopefully, TNVC/Unity will be releasing the TAPS switch, since they yet again released it at shot show. Apparently this years version is well improved from their initial version, so it looks like it will happen. That will solve alot of switchology issues and they have mounting options for 1913, keymod, and m-lok. Other than that I don't have an answer for your immediate need because I dont have any m-lok products. But the velcro tape plus riggers bands can do the job

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

Rev. Trop
Ordained Dudeist Priest at Dudeism, the Church of the Latter-Day Dude

 

If anyone needs PEQ-15 training materials, drop me a line with a .mil or department e-mail. I'll get it out to those requesting next week. 

"I came here for one reason: to attack and keep coming.- Ultimate Warrior

 

"Americans don't deserve America." - Timmy

TAPS is coming. It will be available in the spring, we are just finalizing some minor changes and one more testing revision. Everything on the current unit is production level. Cannot wait to get it out there.

_________________________
Unity Tactical

goteron posted:

TAPS is coming. It will be available in the spring, we are just finalizing some minor changes and one more testing revision. Everything on the current unit is production level. Cannot wait to get it out there.

Thanks dude! I'd love a free one to try out, appreciate it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

LobsterClaw207 posted:
goteron posted:

TAPS is coming. It will be available in the spring, we are just finalizing some minor changes and one more testing revision. Everything on the current unit is production level. Cannot wait to get it out there.

Thanks dude! I'd love a free one to try out, appreciate it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sorry bro, he's already giving me a free one to bring back to the team.  Maybe if there are any extra.......

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

Rev. Trop
Ordained Dudeist Priest at Dudeism, the Church of the Latter-Day Dude

 

Goteron, I don't know if this has been asked or answered elsewhere but...

Is there a solution for using TAPS with the Surefire Fury? Obviously there'd be an end cap replacement, but I'm not sure how all that works out.

I think you've answered this before too, but is there a constant-on option with TAPS? Or is it just momentary like other switches?

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

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