Latest evolution of the RAID pack: The Fight or Flight Pack

The concept for a low profile RAID pack is gaining traction in a different thread, so its time to give this idea its own place to breath.

The idea started here: http://www.lightfighter.net/to...11#46207027944679611

The concept is to have a pack that has all of the shape, space, and load carriage of the Lightfighter RAID pack, but none of the overt military features like MOLLE webbing and side pockets. At the same time, improve on the RAID's internal compartmentalization ability by including the soft-side velcro sheet on the inside so pouches can be added to the inside.

And now we are to the point where a prototype is being made. This thread is for discussion about the upcoming Fight or Flight pack.

 

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Original Post
sky potato posted:

I think the side pockets and zippered front pocket from the RAID 2/Cobra are worth keeping. They're practical and don't scream military.

I agree. I've requested for them to be on the Prototype.

I've also requested bungee on the front of the FoF pack ( little nod from the Cobra to the RAID).

 

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Another +1 on keeping the side and front pockets.

Also, keeping the ability to route a hydration tube and putting in a frame. 

---------------------------------------
 
Joined: 5/28/04     Location: DFW TX

 

"We're men, okay? That means a few things; we like to shit with the door open, we talk about pussy, we like to go on riverboat gambling trips, and we make our own beef jerky. That's what we do." Dale, Step Brothers

I agree with keeping the zippered front pocket, as I have found it quite useful when flying, and a couple of times, when I have flown in smaller aircraft without overhead storage, and had to hand it in at the aircraft door when boarding, I have locked the main compartment with a TSA lock that I always carry in the zippered pouch, and left the zippered pouch unlocked, with a piece of paper inside, with my name, phone number, and email address, so in the off chance that it goes missing, it has my contact details readily accessable, but is still secured.

I don't see the need for the side pockets, as I have never used them in three/four years of flying commercially with the RAID, and eliminating them, would also eliminate the need for the clips above them, thus slightly reducing cost and weight/bulk/snag points. If I carry hydration, it is a contigo mug inside the pack, although I usually carry it in the Cobra.

I definitely don't see any need for the hydration/antenna ports. Carrying a hydration bladder while flying commercially is a non starter, as you will have to empty it at each checkpoint. It will also eliminate a slight extra cost and weight/bulk/snag points. This would also eliminate the need for an internal hydration/frame pouch. I have a frame for my RAID, but when packing clothes and flying, it isn't necessary, any just adds cost, weight and bulk, and makes the pack less compressible/maleable, which can cause issues stuffing it under seats or in smaller overhead lockers.

Definitely no MOLLE anywhere. The whole reason I posted the idea for a slick pack in the first place, is because I already have a Wolf Grey RAID, and wanted something without any military features when travelling. If you want MOLLE, pouches, hydration ports, buy a RAID, they are not going to stop making it, this is just going to be a slick version.

Colour wise, wolf grey and navy blue? Definitely not MC. Possibly ranger green, coyote, black, OD, tan, but they are a little more tactical. Those colours will presumably still be available in the RAID.

Definitely add the Cobra style bungie cord system, with the ability to rapidly remove/change out the bungie.

Just my 0.02, but if you want/need all the other bits/colours, just get a regular RAID.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

Another thought, is maybe consider changing the name. There is already a company making nylon goods and packs called Fight and Flight Tactical, so the RAID FoF may either be confused with one of their products, or considered an infringement of some sort.

Perhaps, RAID Light, RAID Slick, RAID Fly?

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

MWL posted:

Another thought, is maybe consider changing the name. There is already a company making nylon goods and packs called Fight and Flight Tactical, so the RAID FoF may either be confused with one of their products, or considered an infringement of some sort.

Perhaps, RAID Light, RAID Slick, RAID Fly?

I'm not married to the name. You are correct, don't want to be confusing.

I am sure we can come up with something...

Brad

 

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MWL posted:

I agree with keeping the zippered front pocket, as I have found it quite useful when flying, and a couple of times, when I have flown in smaller aircraft without overhead storage, and had to hand it in at the aircraft door when boarding, I have locked the main compartment with a TSA lock that I always carry in the zippered pouch, and left the zippered pouch unlocked, with a piece of paper inside, with my name, phone number, and email address, so in the off chance that it goes missing, it has my contact details readily accessable, but is still secured.

I don't see the need for the side pockets, as I have never used them in three/four years of flying commercially with the RAID, and eliminating them, would also eliminate the need for the clips above them, thus slightly reducing cost and weight/bulk/snag points. If I carry hydration, it is a contigo mug inside the pack, although I usually carry it in the Cobra.

I definitely don't see any need for the hydration/antenna ports. Carrying a hydration bladder while flying commercially is a non starter, as you will have to empty it at each checkpoint. It will also eliminate a slight extra cost and weight/bulk/snag points. This would also eliminate the need for an internal hydration/frame pouch. I have a frame for my RAID, but when packing clothes and flying, it isn't necessary, any just adds cost, weight and bulk, and makes the pack less compressible/maleable, which can cause issues stuffing it under seats or in smaller overhead lockers.

Definitely no MOLLE anywhere. The whole reason I posted the idea for a slick pack in the first place, is because I already have a Wolf Grey RAID, and wanted something without any military features when travelling. If you want MOLLE, pouches, hydration ports, buy a RAID, they are not going to stop making it, this is just going to be a slick version.

Colour wise, wolf grey and navy blue? Definitely not MC. Possibly ranger green, coyote, black, OD, tan, but they are a little more tactical. Those colours will presumably still be available in the RAID.

Definitely add the Cobra style bungie cord system, with the ability to rapidly remove/change out the bungie.

Just my 0.02, but if you want/need all the other bits/colours, just get a regular RAID.

Regards.

Mark

All valid points if we're talking about making the RAID into a purely civilian pack. But then, just buy a civvy pack.

But we're not talking just about that. We're talking about a low(er) profile RAID pack that can be flown civilian into country, and then used for action man soldier stuff when on the ground.

Hydro ports, integral side pouches and frame sheets don't offer a great deal when flying, but they're bloody useful when actually on the ground.

MOLLE, not so much. I never really use it on my RAID pack anyway. Bungee on the front all the way. Helps with the low-pro thing if you've got a lightweight jacket in their at the airport. Although maybe keeping a couple of loops on the base could be useful - can strap stuff underneath if needed.

Agreed on the colours. A mix of earth tones rather than just common tactical colours.

__________________________

sky potato posted:

I also like the mesh pockets and small Velcro pocket on the inside of the front flap from the original RAID

+1 for the frame sheet and hydro ports

One of the features I missed the most on the COBRA and RAID II  was that small Velcro pocket on the inside of the Original RAID. 

I think that pocket was handy and I felt like the newer packs were just not complete without that feature. 

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Joined: 19 Nov 2002    Location: The BLUE turf, ID

Re name, maybe something like Low Profile Pack (LPP), or just "mochila" [the word for pack in Spanish], ...

Re hydration pouch, I prefer an external pouch for a bottle, just in case.

For me it would great a removable velcro attached padded sleeve for a 15.4" laptop.

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Forgot to mention that to keep price tight I guess it is better not to add too many features needing more work and stitching. Everything is compromise, so assessing features pros/cons vs. price increase would be something to think about.

Joined: 30DEC08      Location: SPAIN

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sky potato posted:
 
All valid points if we're talking about making the RAID into a purely civilian pack. But then, just buy a civvy pack.

But we're not talking just about that. We're talking about a low(er) profile RAID pack that can be flown civilian into country, and then used for action man soldier stuff when on the ground.

Hydro ports, integral side pouches and frame sheets don't offer a great deal when flying, but they're bloody useful when actually on the ground.

MOLLE, not so much. I never really use it on my RAID pack anyway. Bungee on the front all the way. Helps with the low-pro thing if you've got a lightweight jacket in their at the airport. Although maybe keeping a couple of loops on the base could be useful - can strap stuff underneath if needed.

Agreed on the colours. A mix of earth tones rather than just common tactical colours.

If I could have found a civvy pack in grey made in the USA by a reputable company, with a lifetime warranty, that is built like a brick shithouse, and is almost the exact dimensions for carry on luggage, I would have bought it.

As I already have both MC and wolf grey RAIDs as well as MC and wolf grey Cobra 2.6s, the idea was to have something just for travelling, especially by commercial airline.

So, first we have to consider the purpose of the pack. Is it for flying into Afghanistan, or Atlanta? Is it for being relatively inconspicuous, or for appearing inconspicuous? 

Personally, once this pack has all the same features as a RAID, maybe minus the MOLLE on the back, I may as well save the coin, and keep flying with my grey RAID.

Again, just my 0.02.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

Call it the Geronimo. 

 

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MrMurphy posted:

Call it the Geronimo. 

 

Nod to the paratroopers.. made for carrying on a plane,  and bailing out in a hurry.  

London Bridge had an awesome jumpable pack called the Geronimo.

 

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Spacetaco posted:

I do like a pouch on the side to add a water bottle.  It helps when I'm flying and when I'm taking kids all over the place.  

While mindful of what Mohican said above re. extra stitching/costs, I'm w/ SpaceT big time on at least one pouch for a water bottle, use mine 6 days a wk CONUS in an NPE doing things.

Joined: 3.28.09            

Location: NETX

Name  keeping with the original acronym naming of the original R.A.I.D. Pack

C.L.E.A.N Pack

Combat

Low profile

 Everyday

Assault

Non tactical

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I could live with the side pouches.

Not very tactical looking, and they could come in handy. The buckles are a bit of a snag hazard in overhead bins, but up on the sides, they are somewhat protected.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

True. The requirements should be decided first so that the accessories can be added to fulfill the need.

So, where will this be predominantly used at? CONUS? OCONUS? Both? Or going to "places" to do "things?"

_____________________________________________

 

Doug

If I mention Corona, I ain't talking about beer.

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JOINED:  9/20/09     LOCATION:  Outside of KSA Finally!

A lot of the pros / cons of various features, concerns, etc of various features as well as considerations of existing civilian packs were hashed out in the original thread. As Brad said, this is for thoughts on the upcoming design.

Name? Fight or Flight loosely translates to Should I Stay or Should I Go. Therefore, I'd suggest calling it The Clash.  

Erick posted:

A lot of the pros / cons of various features, concerns, etc of various features as well as considerations of existing civilian packs were hashed out in the original thread. As Brad, this is for thoughts on the upcoming design.

Name? Fight or Flight loosely translates to Should I Stay or Should I Go. Therefore, I'd suggest calling it The Clash.  

"The Clash". 

Thats a winner right there. 

Mojo/Mark
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yakc130 posted:

 

So, where will this be predominantly used at? CONUS? OCONUS? Both? Or going to "places" to do "things?"

I will be using it daily in Spainistan.

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MOJONIXON posted:
Erick posted:

A lot of the pros / cons of various features, concerns, etc of various features as well as considerations of existing civilian packs were hashed out in the original thread. As Brad, this is for thoughts on the upcoming design.

Name? Fight or Flight loosely translates to Should I Stay or Should I Go. Therefore, I'd suggest calling it The Clash.  

"The Clash". 

Thats a winner right there. 

"The Clash" mochila

Joined: 30DEC08      Location: SPAIN

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The area for a hydration bladder can be used for a laptop. Hydration ports really dont need to be the level of the current RAID, basically two pieces of elastic like on civilian packs.

Im not sure if for the inteneded purpose the side pockets need the fatsex closure like the RAID. The 5.11 RUSH has some nice zipper closed side pockets but i dont know if they can hold a water bottle. 

Also, again cost a factor, an admin type area with pen holders and small pockets would be handy, although this could be a velcro add on. 

Just brainstorming.  

 

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Joined: 5/28/04     Location: DFW TX

 

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Erick posted:

A lot of the pros / cons of various features, concerns, etc of various features as well as considerations of existing civilian packs were hashed out in the original thread. As Brad, this is for thoughts on the upcoming design.

Name? Fight or Flight loosely translates to Should I Stay or Should I Go. Therefore, I'd suggest calling it The Clash.  

Another vote for "The Clash".  Perfect for when you need to travel someplace and still be ready to "Rock the Casbah".  

Brad, I hope this goes well and makes you a ton of $! It seems like there is a need for something like this for sure. If it does a Cobra sized one would be very cool as well. Just throwing that out there...In grey / ranger green. 

Joined: 13AUG2010         Location: Southern Arizona 

I vote for retaining the zippered front pouch and the hydration ports on the top, but omitting the exterior side pockets (and accompanying buckles). I think it is a reasonable compromise given the dual missions of the pack. I also like the interior pouches on the front flap for keeping small things accessible and organized. Lining the interior rear and/or side (s) with loop fabric would give the ability to attack and remove hook backed pouches.

I mentioned in the previous thread, but to consolidate:

That sounds great. I would like low profile webbing loops for bungee. It is easy enough to take the bungee off if you don't need it and thread it back through if you do. 

And:

MWL is spot-on with the color of the bungee. I think I posted in the low profile travel thread and an Eagle pack review how, for CONUS travel and day to day carry, I run fluorescent orange reflective Bungie through the MOLLE webbing on a black pack. Anyone paying great attention will notice what it is, but to the casual observer it probably looks like just another pack. I like the idea of solid gray, or something similar, rather than a mix of brighter colors, especially fluorescents. Those colors come and go depending on season. The solid low profile color will be less subject to changes and trends, and can still be use in professional situations we're brighter colors are inappropriate. By simply swapping colored bungee cord you can match whatever you want.

There are some good ideas in this thread, and I don't mean to discount anybody's thoughts on the issue. It seems to me, though, we are departing from the original intention of the RAID. My thoughts for a low profile RAID or Cobra is to retain the size, space and capabilities of those packs, and not make them just like REI or North Face packs. Why make a low profile RAID if we are just going to change the shape, change the pattern, change the pockets, change everything? If that was the case we could just ask Brad to make a North Face pack. I can pack a shit ton of stuff into my RAID. Without MOLLE webbing and all the extra zippers, straps and compartments of a civilian pack, it would fit into nearly every overhead compartment without snagging.

And the RAID can be done cheaply. All of the details we see on civilian packs significantly increase the price. I've got a lot of packs; it is no secret that I like backpacks and will pay good money for a good product. But I like the simplicity of the RAID without all of those nice to have features that I really don't need.

And:

My REI has a couple different colors of shock cord in the store so it probably varies from location to location. It would be great to order kits with both shock cord and zipper pulls. I like reflective for my non-tactical needs.

------------

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prestonoconnor posted:

"The Clash" name rocks or I'm just showing my age. I would love one in grey. 

Not showing your age. It's showing that some of the Clash's work is timeless. 

Mojo/Mark
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The side pockets on the Rush 24 will hold a 16oz water bottle no issues. They'd probably hold a 1L Smartwater bottle as well, likely not a Nalgene.

This reminds me of a discussion on the history of "tactical" gray from the EAG C1 at BCSO in the spring of 2015. Pat went over the history, when he'd been wearing it, and how back then they just called it "fuckin gray".

I may not need it, but I'd be down for a LF CLASH in Fuckin Gray please.

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Joined: 04Nov2007         Location: Indiana

FastSS posted:

The side pockets on the Rush 24 will hold a 16oz water bottle no issues. They'd probably hold a 1L Smartwater bottle as well, likely not a Nalgene.

This reminds me of a discussion on the history of "tactical" gray from the EAG C1 at BCSO in the spring of 2015. Pat went over the history, when he'd been wearing it, and how back then they just called it "fuckin gray".

I may not need it, but I'd be down for a LF CLASH in Fuckin Gray please.

Ok. So now is it "Fuckin Gray" or "Fuckin Grey"? I've always preferred Grey over Gray but not sure why. 

Mojo/Mark
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Vincent from "Collateral"
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Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

MOJONIXON posted:
... I've always preferred Grey over Gray but not sure why. 

You probably had a childhood crush on someone like:

Erin Grey.

For the color, grey is the British spelling. Gray is the American spelling. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

The only movie she's done that I think I may have seen is Jason goes to hell, The final Friday. 

And I was 30 when she did that. So I doubt it was a childhood thing. 

I don't typically have a penchant for the Brit spelling of words either. 

Not sure where it comes from. 

Anyway, back on topic, hopefully. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

MWL posted:

XTCBX,

Like this:

Cobra-2.6-wolfblack-1200-square__56117.1464147955.332.500Cobra 2.6, available in Ranger Green from ATS now. No MOLLE or side pockets, with velcro interior and user replaceable bungie.

Regards.

Mark

Pretty much, but in super exclusive cool guy grey / green and from Brad... 

Supporting 2 LF vendors by buying 1 pack would be cool...

Joined: 13AUG2010         Location: Southern Arizona 

prestonoconnor posted:

"The Clash" name rocks or I'm just showing my age. I would love one in grey. 

You may not be showing your age, but Erick was.

On topic: this should be a simplified version of the RAID in order to keep cost down, flexibility and low profile up.

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