P320 - Who has 1? Yea or Nay?

Personally, I would not trust a company that sold me a known defective product to fix it for me. They have lied. They have ridiculed those who pointed out the flaw. It will be a looooooooong time before I put minimal faith in Sig. 

Location: North Carolina

City of Morrow Georgia has decided to dump the 320 and go to Glock. I found this elsewhere but it is also on the Department Facebook page.

IMG_1317

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

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As I said, memos and emails were being drafted as we discussed the incident.  Agencies have little choice once things go public.  Waiting for a fix, even one that works, is risky, and once fixed, the gun is no longer the gun you specified or bought, for better or worse.

"It's when you fuck up that you will hear from your peers, not when you are doing your job. We expect people to do their jobs, and don't praise them like six year olds who successfully tied their shoes when they do. " - Fatty

 

If in doubt about the tone of my post, please refer to avatar.

As a private party, I will send mine in for fix and decide where to go from there, regarding that gun and that gun only.

Given that, for me, a gun is part of a system (mags, holsters, reserve gun, sights) it will mean a change of platform. Not only for my peace of mind (Sig said the first design was good, who other than Sig has said the fix is actually a fix), but because after mulling it over for the past day or so, I'm not giving any more of my money to Sig. They had an idea this was going on for several months, denied it, and put lives at risk.

I'm willing to pay for quality, but with that quality I want peace of mind. I don't have it now. I have used Sigs for decades, trusted my life to them, and really REALLY want to be able to stay loyal to a brand. But in this I feel Sig broke loyalty with me, not the other way around. I can forgive design errors, I can't forgive trying to cover it up.

https://wwwDOTyoutube.com/watch?v=veI5NsDqG9E

(replace DOT with .)

Interesting link with slow motion footage of a 320 failing when struck with a hammer on the rear of the slide.  Of note, the trigger does not appear to move, dispelling some theories of the source of the issue. 

Rick

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

Ironically if there is enough doubt the M17 could get dropped by the Army and even with guarrentee funds that Sig gets from the contract the inline change to the M9A3 would be cheaper.  Then CID, NCIS, OSI and all those special people can piggiy back on the SOCOM Glock 19 contract.  Wow and no issues and you get your FDE handgun.  

I hate it when Low IQ types like Flag Officers make me use Math.  

lpd5408 posted:

City of Morrow Georgia has decided to dump the 320 and go to Glock. I found this elsewhere but it is also on the Department Facebook page.

IMG_1317

 

Chief, please let me keep the P320 until I can get to the range and shoot with my different, new Glock. Especially if you're "picking up the new guns today"... I'd like to maybe have a few rounds through it before putting it on duty, considering it is not identical to the P320. 

If the Chief hands me a gun at the beginning of shift change and I've never fired it, I think that's much less safe than the slim chance I'm doing to drop the P320 and have it go off, at least during one shift until I can get to the range and make sure the thing actually functions... 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

As of yesterday, per my factory representative, guns in law enforcement hands will be replaced.   The "upgraded" guns will have an 'L' as the first letter in the serial number.  Also notable will be the disconnector visible on the bottom of the slide.   These identifiers will be required if any of our students or neighboring agencies want to bring a Sig P320 on our indoor range.

________________________________________________________________

 

Kilroy... ...was here.

 

Telling ain't training........listening is not learning.

 

Skandar posted:
Spacetaco posted:

So right now my P320 is with my Dad how long will they be able to have this"upgrade" before they tell me no since I'm deployed and all?

Shit hate being deployed at times but this means I'm selling mine and all gear when I get back.

 I have the APEX trigger in mine currently, I wonder if that made it safer.   

 

Wondering how bad a hit I'll take if I sell mine. 

sorry but I got an email from Apex this past week, first words copied and pasted below:

Temporary Suspension Of
Apex Sig P320 Triggers
Please discontinue using or carrying your Sig P320 pistol equipped with the Apex Curved Advanced Trigger.

They are not too comfortable with their flat trigger either....

LobsterClaw207 posted:

If the Chief hands me a gun at the beginning of shift change and I've never fired it, I think that's much less safe than the slim chance I'm doing to drop the P320 and have it go off, at least during one shift until I can get to the range and make sure the thing actually functions... 

How long has that department issue P320s? Did they issue Glocks before the P320? If so, how many new hires have their been?

Joined: 3/27/09          Location: Back in MA for now

I know I am drifting from the original topic and for that I am sorry. In January of this year we switched from Gen 3 Glock 22 pistols (mine was 16 years old) to gen 4 Glock 17's. The Chief planned to issue the pistols at the beginning of the shifts and have no qualification or range time. This was an effort to save money in the form of ammunition costs as well as not having to pay Officers while on the range. Not to mention we were switching ammunition. I selected from doc's list, but was told we didn't need to fire any ammunition before issue. 

I quickly wrote a memo which was backed up by the two other FI's and a Lt. and we held of on issuing the pistols until everyone did a qualification. Once the qualification was finished a whole host of other issues erupted and while I was hated at first I was vindicated in the end. 

Now we do not have ammunition for continuing training so it may have been a wash, but I can see how a PD could issue new pistols without a testing period. Our transition was not as harsh as going from a Sig 320 to a Glock, but its one of those lessons learned the hard way. 

Sorry for the drift.

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

BooneGA posted:

https://wwwDOTyoutube.com/watch?v=veI5NsDqG9E

(replace DOT with .)

Interesting link with slow motion footage of a 320 failing when struck with a hammer on the rear of the slide.  Of note, the trigger does not appear to move, dispelling some theories of the source of the issue. 

Rick

Yankee Marshal has a problem with the test conditions of above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtwzXu9dizo

 

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

libertarian45 posted:
BooneGA posted:

https://wwwDOTyoutube.com/watch?v=veI5NsDqG9E

(replace DOT with .)

Interesting link with slow motion footage of a 320 failing when struck with a hammer on the rear of the slide.  Of note, the trigger does not appear to move, dispelling some theories of the source of the issue. 

Rick

Yankee Marshal has a problem with the test conditions of above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtwzXu9dizo

 

That makes sense - but ill never get those 6 minutes listening to that guy back.

Rick

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

Just went to the Sig website and found the link for the P320 return.

They will pay for everything including shipping, but you have to register your serial and then they will contact you to arrange for the best shipping arrangement (and presumably to allow them to phase the shipping). They're quoting 4-6 weeks to get the fix done, it was unclear to me if that is from now or from the time you get told to ship it, but I'm guessing the latter.

However, since I bought mine under the IOP, I can't register and have to wait until Sig issues more guidance and a separate form to fill out. I guess I can understand that but it is leaving an even worse taste in my mouth.

4-6 weeks maybe plus shipping? We've seen recalls done better before, haven't we? 

Unless you say you did custom work and need your exact gun back on the form, they should be able to just make sure to preserve the serialized part is returned, put on all new/refurbed bits and send it back in a day or three, shouldn't they? 

For those who haven't given up, are they even doing something like offering to come out to your armory and fix on site, or do agencies have to buy a lot of boxes? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Well. That's that. 

". . . so in this video we drop test, at many angles, a Glock 17 Gen 2, Glock 17 Gen 3 modified by Zev, Glock 22 Gen 4, Glock 43, Heckler & Koch VP9, HK VP9SK, Polymer80 PF940C Glock kit with all stock Glock parts, Smith & Wesson M&P9 M2.0, S&W M&P 45, and a Springfield TRP Operator 1911.

None of these firearms caused a primed case to discharge."

 

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/...p-test-follow-video/

 

 

 

shoobe01 posted:

4-6 weeks maybe plus shipping? We've seen recalls done better before, haven't we? 

Unless you say you did custom work and need your exact gun back on the form, they should be able to just make sure to preserve the serialized part is returned, put on all new/refurbed bits and send it back in a day or three, shouldn't they? 

For those who haven't given up, are they even doing something like offering to come out to your armory and fix on site, or do agencies have to buy a lot of boxes? 

As I understand it, they have to modify the slide. I for one don't want the hassle of removing my aftermarket sights and then reinstalling them on another slide once it's sent back. I'm guessing this, and people who may have cerekoted or otherwise customized their slides, are major reasons they can't do what you recommend.

That being said, they specifically state that any optics should be removed from the gun before shipping since they can't guarantee they'll be returned. I'm not taking that to mean iron / night sights, but if they do mean that, there is zero reason they cant turn these a heck of a lot faster.

MWL posted:

Get one before they're gone, or before they get threatened with a lawsuit:

AAAE0iF_dRegards.

Mark

Lol, I want one! 

On a side note, I wonder what sig will do if I can't find my original trigger to send in for the "upgrade". I currently have a Apex flat trigger installed, and for the life of me, I can't find my original trigger. 

_________________________

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

 

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed." - Adolph Hitler

 

"Dont' believe everything you read on the Internet."  - Abraham Lincoln

MWL posted:

Get one before they're gone, or before they get threatened with a lawsuit:

AAAE0iF_dRegards.

Mark

Oh where is this availiable from! Gotta get one, pm if you know. 

 

So IO purchase 320s are going to be handled separately from  "commercial" OTC purchased ones?

I believe it is available from the same guys who did the "no step on snek" T-shirts. Not sure who they are though.

Back to the original purpose of this thread:

Is it safe to say that currently, the correct answer is:

B) Nay.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

MWL posted:

I believe it is available from the same guys who did the "no step on snek" T-shirts. Not sure who they are though.

Back to the original purpose of this thread:

Is it safe to say that currently, the correct answer is:

B) Nay.

Regards.

Mark

I was just thinking the same thing, but I believe it's "Hell Nay" (To Hell and Back Nay?)

I have mixed feelings on this issue.  Granted it's cool to know you can drop your service pistol and it won't fire, but that expectation is a relatively new thing.  We never had that expectation when dudes were rocking series 70 1911's (and there's still plenty of guys carrying them, at least in my area).  

On the other hand, that's the expectation of a modern firearm, so maybe it's a big deal.  I don't know.

On the third hand, for those who say they're appalled because they think Sig knew about this issue and didn't address it, and therefore will never trust Sig, take an honest look at the industry.  Gun manufacturers (and the ancillary industries of ammo, mags, holsters, armor, etc) will absolutely bold-faced lie to your face to sell their product.  That's always been the case, and it won't change anytime soon.  I'm not accusing Sig of lying, I'm just saying if you expect someone to be an angel because they happen to be in the gun industry you're grossly mistaken. 

To add to my post above... if you or your agency carries or authorizes this as a duty gun, I think you have to send them back to be fixed.  No matter how unlikely it is, it's been identified and labeled as a problem, so you have no real option but to "fix" it.  I'm definitely not one to bend to the fear of liability, but there isn't really much choice here as far as I see it.

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