Preferred features of a combat handgun

 

Rather then drag the M&P2.0 thread down a rabbit hole, I figured we could discuss what features we like and dislike in a combat handgun. Let start with a full size, duty type gun, and later we can start a thread on concealed and deep concealment guns.

Someone else go first..

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Original Post

But that's going to take SO LONG to read, and it's almost bedtime (and it's older).

I want instant gratification. 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

I want a highly effective bullet caliber, superior terminal ballistics, and large magazine capacity... AND in spite of this... a comfortable grip, perfect fit in MY hand, and manageable recoil.  All in a lightweight package. Including a light and night sights. Ambidextrous. Low flash/sound signature. Concealable too please. Fix it! 

 

Adversity is another way to measure the greatness of individuals.  -Lou Holtz

Also automatically hits what I want, and only what I want. Superior intermediate barrier penetration without any penetration of two barriers (house safe). Minimal weight and volume. Readily available holsters. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Integrated suppressor, recoil management system to eliminate felt recoil and muzzle flip.

White light, visible and infrared laser targeting module. 

Integrated HUD with target reticule for off-boreline sighting ability, i.e., around a barricade.

Smaller caliber than 9mm with a larger capacity magazine.  Something like a 4.7mm bullet with a powerful propellant like C4.  Target would be stopped by massive tissue disruption from a small projectile moving at 8-10K FPS.

Two stage trigger for single shot and multiple rounds.  Programmable for the number of rounds you want to shoot.

Camera to verify sight picture was on target.

Round counter for PMCS.

Piezoelectric powered electronics module and ignition system.  A capacitor would hold a charge to ignite the primer. 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

“Do not leave the humans unsupervised.  Seriously.  Get a supply of safe animals for  the humans to bond with or they will make their own.  I mean, they will try to befriend anything they come across anyway, but without any permanent pets, they can get ... creative.  Don't even get me started on the time one of them taped a knife to one of our auto-cleaners and named it Stabby."  Bekka Tiddalk

 

Not to make this serious, but it's a fun design exercise so I do occasionally think on this. First thing I'd do would be a mall intercept. Probably a gun show intercept really. I need fresh, accurate and broadly cross-sectional ergonomics data on the population today, and with somewhat more precision than before. Bring a 3D laser scanner, get a few zillion people's hands into the box. 

The goal is to design a gripframe and stock/trigger geometry that fits the hand properly, and more automatically than it does now, for as much of the population as we can (ideally, with gloves, etc also). I've seen a lot of people who, for example, shoot poorly because they don't consistently get the same part of the web between the thumb and index finger on the back of the frame every time. I suspect we can improve that with design.

Trigger reach, so you properly address the trigger face also seems critical, and I'd love to explore ways to make sure that always works best. I think the SIG short triggers are clever, but that's too much armorer involvement. 

Both for appealing to simplification of fleet maintenance and parts for the end user agencies, and for design, manufacturing and inventory for the mfg, I like a shocking degree of modularity. As was briefly hoped for in the M&P 2 discussion, a common metal subframe with tack-on plastic overframe (or frames... could be a dustcover front, gripframe bottom) in different sizes and configurations would be cool. Similar for the slide, I'd love to have the bolt be removable for some easier maintenance without so many through-pins, and for caliber changes (within reason). 

Then the simple stuff: 

  • Minimum width whenever possible. 
  • Minimum snagginess. Round off everything that isn't deliberately a gripping surface. 
  • Minimum protrusions. Things like slide stops can be made to work with slight depressions in the frame instead of sticking out. See the M&P stripping lever vs the M9 lever as a minor example.  
  • All controls can be manipulated (by a 95% percentile user) without shifting the firing hand. 
  • All controls can be used with either hand without reconfiguring the gun. 
  • Work with accessory makers to provide space for lasers, lights, sights, etc. 
  • Launch with holsters and accessories available. Include a holster in the box. 
  • All slides have a mounting point for sights large and sturdy enough for RDS. Block it with a piece of metal or plastic to make the right shape/weight. 
  • Launch with jigs, fixtures, parts, manuals, videos, classes etc. readily available. 
  • No screws anywhere
  • Reduce single points of failure by duplication. E.g. dual extractors. 
  • Reduce single points of failure by removal. E.g. share robust springs to avoid small, fragile, hard-to-replace and hard-to-inspect springs. 
  • Failsafe all single point of failure parts. I mean things like springs. If the extractor spring fails, can the gun be made such that it still works semi reliably? I had a 590 start not igniting 1:20 shells, and on inspection the firing pin is shattered into 3 parts; but it still worked! OTOH, loose the little spring held in by luck under the gripframe of the M9 and the drawbar doesn't engage and the gun is pretty well shut down.  
  • Easier to clean. Radius interior edges, remove voids, make grooves that Q-tips fit into, etc. whenever not critical to mechanical operation. 
  • Make fire control group removable on field stripping (as a complete module) for easier cleaning, and maybe as part of the modular thing, so it can be exchanged for other types. Also, easier fleet maintenance; replace a bad fire control pack, then deal with the tedious detail teardown and fixing later. 
  • Attempt to build in wear indicators for things like springs and other items that require periodic replacement. 
  • Add sensors for use tracking round count, temperatures, recoil force, and anything else we find important in test. Make able to link up to software to track this and suggest maintenance not based on intervals but actual performance and environmental conditions. 
  • Make sensor pack removable or optional so people don't flip out and think it's the government satellites beaming messages into their brains. 
  • Place to add labels and/or barcodes on the gun and magazines.
  • Finish by polishing and/or plating all bearing surfaces. 
  • Magazines must not have protrusions out the back or side, or the front except for the floorplate (M&P and P7, looking at you). 
  • Magazines must have witness holes for each round. If holes, some Beretta .380s have holes in the back, for each and every round. But if plastic, how about a strip of clear along the back? My oil bottles have one. 
  • Cutouts in gripframe to allow removal of stuck magazines. 
  • Reduced felt recoil,  by using the best control of dwell time and frame flexing we can. A subframe as described above could theoretically be mounted into a gripframe in such a way as to help with this also. 

Yes, some things are wishlist, so conflict with each other, such as adding complexity, weight or bulk in opposition to other requirements. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Trajan Aurelius posted:

Integrated suppressor, recoil management system to eliminate felt recoil and muzzle flip.

White light, visible and infrared laser targeting module. 

Integrated HUD with target reticule for off-boreline sighting ability, i.e., around a barricade.

Smaller caliber than 9mm with a larger capacity magazine.  Something like a 4.7mm bullet with a powerful propellant like C4.  Target would be stopped by massive tissue disruption from a small projectile moving at 8-10K FPS.

Two stage trigger for single shot and multiple rounds.  Programmable for the number of rounds you want to shoot.

Camera to verify sight picture was on target.

Round counter for PMCS.

Piezoelectric powered electronics module and ignition system.  A capacitor would hold a charge to ignite the primer. 

 

 

Can be cleaned in the dishwasher.  Thank you Shoobie01.

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

“Do not leave the humans unsupervised.  Seriously.  Get a supply of safe animals for  the humans to bond with or they will make their own.  I mean, they will try to befriend anything they come across anyway, but without any permanent pets, they can get ... creative.  Don't even get me started on the time one of them taped a knife to one of our auto-cleaners and named it Stabby."  Bekka Tiddalk

 

jcustisredux posted:

It's interesting that the thread you linked appears to have been started for a similar reason that this one was.

 

As a .mil former infantry guy:

A mid sized to service sized semi auto (G19, G17, VP9, M&P, etc...).

reliable and field serviceable.  It's no use to me if it breaks easily or during training or routine use.  When it does break I want it to be fixable at the lowest echelon with the least amount of parts and specialized tools as possible.   

Light enough that it can be carried without negatively impacting movement or my primary weapon system and ammo. But, not too light that it impacts recoil management and/or follow up shots. 

Accurate enough with issue ammo that it can make effective hits out to 25M.  Doc Roberts and Pat have made comments on acceptable accuracy before, I'd say to use their standards.

A Doc Roberts approved load/caliber.  He has done the homework and gel tests to tell us what works and what doesn't.  I would not be opposed to skirting the edge of the laws of land warfare.  There must be sufficient quantities of train ammo to support my next item.

A good all hands training program to go with it.  All the wonder weapons in the world don't mean shit if the operator is untrained and has a bad habit of NDs.  We (US Army) don't provide consistent good training on handling handguns.  Some MOSs or Units have excellent handgun training programs (SOF, to an extent MPs)  but a lot don't really train at all.  My current unit's pistol training is the twice a year qual.  This needs to get fixed.  EST can supplement training, but we need to shoot rounds. 

Decent optics/robust sights, decent ergonomics, the ability to integrate lights lasers and other accessories.

I'd say the ability to change grip sizes based on individuals but we all know that the grips would wind up in tuff boxes in the arms room never to be issued or given to users and lost forever.   

A decent deployment kit that includes a decent cleaning kit, holsters (several different types), mag pouches, a weapons light etc. 

   

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I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

I have simple tastes. I'd like a 1911 that can fit 10 rounds of .45 in a narrow grip. I'm old school, have small hands and live in a state with a mag limit.

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It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.

The .45-70 is the only government I trust

 

Joined: 1/30/06 3:34 PM - Location:MA

I'd just like to be able to get my hands on the G17M.  That's pretty close to what I want in my little pea brain. But I like simple. 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

J,

Thanks, I thought it was discussed in the past..for all those with the snarky Shit...well...

What I had wanted to discuss was specific features, not necessarily platforms..that are preferred or not by the individual poster/member and why.

Trying to stick with what is generally available and some what in financial reach of a middle class guy, or agency.

Not a wish list of shit that doesn't exist.

IE: thumb safety

 Modular grip

Adjustable sights

Red dot compatible

Mag well

Trigger action

Not to concerned about a caliber discussion, as the gun should be built for the cartridge.

At work and on phone...so can't add much right now, but will give my thoughts asap.

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

For me, the Glock 19 is a good starting point for discussion

  • (relatively) compact, light, and easy to carry; no sharp edges
  • good trigger
  • good-enough cartridge
  • good-sized magazine capacity
  • very reliable
  • easy to strip, clean, and maintain
  • wide variety of aftermarket sights available (I use the factory tritium sights and they're fine, though)
  • rail for mounting a light if desired

I'm not a brand loyalist, but it's a pretty hard-to-beat package. I haven't seen anything on the market yet that makes me want to drop it and switch.

In all seriousness, this is my list for a fighting pistol that I would carry in an exposed duty holster:

-9mm - I have no problems with the caliber.  Works as well as any pistol round, allows high capacity. More bullets equals better. Good ammo helps this a lot.  I have what i think is good ammo.  

- polymer frame, striker fired - doesn't rust, makes for less expensive pistols, flexes, which seems to me to reduce felt recoil, and is durable as shit. I've never needed a second strike capability, so could give two shits less about that.  If it doesn't go bang, tap and rack, not keep trying to pull the trigger on a possibly non-existent round, since you likely didn't load the gun.

- Low bore axis - i cannot say enough how important I think this is.  The muzzle flip on any sig compared to any Glock of the same caliber is notably different.  So is the balance. The caveat is the pistol with a lower bore axis needs a small beavertail, or it cuts my hand.  I have big fat hands.

- Make everything as narrow as possible while maintaining capacity.  Don't have a bunch of crap sticking out to catch on stuff or to cut me (but still allow cycling of the slide using a belt and the sights).  Super extended mag and slide releases are dumb for duty gun - I've seen them in real life cause real problems on more than one occasion.  I'll lose a few tenths of a second on reload speed to keep the mag I have in the gun firmly in place until I want it out.  

- some slight beveling of the mag well.  The current G4 glocks don't accept the little grip plug thingy that smooths out the mag insertion.  In a hurry, I tend to hang up the mag on the back of the well. I don't want a full-blown competition mag well, but something mild from the factory would be nice.

- larger, more high vis sights than the factory Glock night sights, but not as huge and sharp as the trijicon HD razors/edward scissorhands.  I like the concept, just make it a little shorter and less sharp. A happy medium is there somewhere. Tritium sights are a must.  

- I don't care for the electronic optical sights on a pistol so far.  They don't help me yet, and the juice isn't worth the squeeze to me.  A lot of added cost, a dramatic change in holster type, and just one more thing to break.  In the rain, they get rainy - I have yet to have my simple pistol sights get full of water and the lens fogged up.  This may be the sight of the future, but for something I carry in the holster the negatives right now outweigh the positives.  Keep it simple.  

- If I were to have an added sight, a switchable green/IR laser built into the guide rod would be nice.  No added bulk, no holster swap.  Win-win.  Except it would cost more.  Lose.  

- I want a smaller weapon mounted light.  Narrower specifically.  But still easy to use, and that plenty of holsters are available for.  Lighter, too.  200-300 lumens is enough for most work.  I'd give up a few lumens for more compact, lighter, and easier to carry as long as it's durable.  

Some more stuff but I'm gotta go do work.  

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

I think that Silencerco? pistol that was being designed (last year?) is on the right track... A pistol with the ability to integrate a light, laser, RDS, silencer, magazine well & with a modular grip that is user servisable for general maintenance will be the future and the next big step in a duty gun. A compatible version where you could drop a fire control group into a smaller version with the ability to delete any of thoes features for off duty or CCW would put it over the top. Think AR-15 modularity brought to the sidearm. 

Or just a railed 9mm 2011 platform that is perfectly reliable at the price point of a Glock...that'd work too. 

-Joined: 8/13/2010         
-Location: Southern Arizona 

Combat handgun means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

I don't think of a combat handgun as necessarily being of a size that makes it easily-concealed.

Tom and R. Moran had a good list, but I'd expand that to add:

-Oversized trigger guard to allow for shooting with thicker gloves

-Lanyard hole that is unobtrusive if not used.  I've had pistols launch from a number of holsters under field conditions and the only thing preventing deadlining damage was a lanyard.

-Decocker

-Minimum of 15 round capacity

-Front serrations were something I considered, but if  the manual of arms that I train to has me dancing between brass checks at the front and stoppage clearance at the back, I don't want to confuse the muscle memory when I need immediate action to resolve a problem.  Does anyone have an argument FOR serrations at the front of the slide?

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...with liberty and justice FOR ALL.  

 

Mad respect for Brando and the perseverance in his current fight.

jcustisredux posted:

 Does anyone have an argument FOR serrations at the front of the slide?

Economy of motion when racking the slide.

All slide manipulations should be performed from the front of the slide with the support hand using the slingshot method (i.e. with the pistol turned 90 degrees to the deck).

The purpose of manipulating from the front is so when you are done manipulating the slide the support hand ends up just in front of and at the side of the grip to facilitate a very fast two handed grip.  In contrast, if you manipulate from the rear (either slingshot or over the top), the support hands ends up to the rear of the pistol which means now your support hand has a longer distance to travel to secure the two handed grip.

This is not a big deal when doing administrative manipulations, but it is a big deal and cuts down time when performing immediate action or remedial action to clear a stoppage.

Love, Loyalty, Life, Leadership

 

LOCATION:  The Sixth Borough (Miami)

 

EDC Pistol Training LLC

www.edcpt.com

Agree that (while I don't prefer front manipulations anymore) it's not an invalid method. Modern cocking serration styles don't have to chew up your leg/holster either, so I see no downside to including them except a tiny cost in more machine time. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Bluemonday posted:
jcustisredux posted:

 Does anyone have an argument FOR serrations at the front of the slide?

 

This is not a big deal when doing administrative manipulations, but it is a big deal and cuts down time when performing immediate action or remedial action to clear a stoppage.

What steps does your remedial action method consist of?

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...with liberty and justice FOR ALL.  

 

Mad respect for Brando and the perseverance in his current fight.

This derail might be better for another thread but I've been working the all from the front manipulations since seeing the Proctor video. It's not much faster for me but I've found it is significantly smoother and has a much better economy of motion. There is something to it...

-Joined: 8/13/2010         
-Location: Southern Arizona 

jcustisredux posted:
Bluemonday posted:
jcustisredux posted:

 Does anyone have an argument FOR serrations at the front of the slide?

 

This is not a big deal when doing administrative manipulations, but it is a big deal and cuts down time when performing immediate action or remedial action to clear a stoppage.

What steps does your remedial action method consist of?

Immediate action = TRB.  Racking from the front facilities faster recovery to two handed grip.

Remedial action = Could be any of the commonly taught methods, it really doesn't matter because like with TRB above your hand still recovers to two handed grip faster when racking from the front.  For me, I use rip, load, rack, bang.

Love, Loyalty, Life, Leadership

 

LOCATION:  The Sixth Borough (Miami)

 

EDC Pistol Training LLC

www.edcpt.com

I won't profess to know what is needed for a DUTY gun.  But if I could have a 2011 that had reliable and durable mags, I'd be a happy camper.  1911 ergos, large capacity, hammer fired, thumb safety, grip safety, easy trigger, takes a light, the slide has enough room for a RDS.  Modular grip and trigger shoe allow for some customization for the user.  

I broke this down to categories:

Service handgun for general issue

-Accuracy requirement is 2" at 25 yards with commonly available premium duty ammunition from a machine rest.

-Weapon must reliably cycle all current configurations of viable duty and quality training ammunition.

-Metal components must be treated with highly corrosion resistant chemical process. A process that interacts at the molecular level is prefered to one which acts simply through mechanical adhesion.

-Total loaded weight under 30 oz without light or laser.

Slide

-Radiused at muzzle end to facilitate reholstering. There should not be a definite shoulder which would discourage use of the muzzle to cycle the slide using one hand. Feature example is G34/35.

-I could care less about including a loaded chamber indicator, I learned to press check long ago.

-Slide should not be any wider than a 1911 slide, and thinner yet would be better.

-Slide should be fully enclosed to prevent debris from impeding function. This precludes exposed hammer designs.

-Field and detail stripping of the slide should not require movement of the sights.

-Firing pin or firing pin channel should be fluted to prevent hydraulic lock when the gun is immersed in fluid. 

-Compact, Full size and extended slides should all utilize a common travel distance which allows the use of a common length recoil spring assembly and also allows any size frame to be used with any length of slide or barrel combination.

-Striker block should feature a polished dome shape to smooth trigger function.

-Provision for mounting a RMR is desirable, along with a cover when the mounting boss is unused. Industry should standardize on a single configuration of mounting hole size, spacing, screw diameter, recoil boss configuration and overall inset dimension for both male and female sides of the RMR sight.

-Slide should feature heavy textured areas on both sides of the slide, both near the front and rear to accommodate various cycling and emergency techniques.

Sights

-Should provide a clean square or "u" sight picture.

-Should not utilize the so called "three dot" scheme.

-May include a tritium, brass or fiber optic insert in the front sight.

-Front and rear should be dovetailed into the slide with a focus on strength when choosing dovetail angles and dimensions.

-Rear sight should feature a ledge perpendicular to the plane of the slide to facilitate one handing cycling of the slide.

-Standard rear height sight should extend .25" above the plane of the slide.

-Rear sight should feature rounded outside corners to lower wear and tear on clothing and seat belts. The 10-8 Shield sight is a good example of this feature.

-Standard and suppressor height sights should be available from the factory.

-Sights should be factory regulated such that common premium duty loads impact exactly at the top of the front sight at 25 yards.  Alternate height front sights should be available from the factory to adjust POA/POI in 1" increments at 25 yards. Each height front sight should be stamped or marked with it relative height.

-Slide should feature continuous planes on either side of the sight dovetail slots, so that the sights can be consistently mechanically centered with a common micrometer.

Frame

-Magazine capacity should be 13 or more rounds of .40 or 9mm ammunition.

-Frame should be made of polymer ,and feature heavy and useful texturing on the grip areas. Such texturing should not extend  under the trigger guard where it would chafe on the knuckle of the middle finger during firing. This area should be molded as smoothly as possible.

-A slight beavertail is desirable to prevent slide bit while wearing gloves or for ham handed shooters.

-Ambidextrous magazine release controls are desirable, but not critical.

-Trigger guard should be sized to allow the use of gloves while operating the trigger.

-Trigger guard should be under cut at the rear to allow the highest grip possible.

-Slide, barrel and frame should be designed such that the bore centerline is a close to the firing hand as is possible.

-Should feature an integral hole for a lanyard hook or girth hitched lanyard near the bottom rear of the grip, positioned in such away as to avoid interference with magazine insertion.

-Should feature a common interface that will accommodate the addition of weapon mounted light (WML) and/or laser.

-A frame mounted laser option is desirable, especially if it can be designed in such a way as to use common power from the battery of the WML.

-Grip frame cutouts to facilitate stripping of stuck magazines are desirable. 

-LOP should be adjustable via either grip inserts or trigger shoes. Length of grip is more important than width of grip, but length and width should be kept at bare minimums on the base frame. 

-Slide release lever should be positioned such that the average shooter will not inadvertently ride it using a thumbs forward grip.

-Field stripping is ideally accomplished using no tools.

-Detail stripping is ideally accomplished using nothing more than a single pin punch.

-Different length grip frames are desirable. I.E. compact and fullsize. Reference the Glock 19/17 ratio for a working example.

-Grip shape should be such that a fully loaded handgun will naturally stay in the shooters hand with a relaxed grip.

Trigger

-Should feature a safety bar in the center.  

-Ideal travel is less than .2" with no pre-travel.

-Reset distance should match trigger travel distance.

-Ideal pull weight is 3-4 lbs.

-Trigger action should be smooth and continuous, with no impression of stacking or roller coaster type action. The feeling should be that of two oiled pieces of glass sliding by each other.

Magazine

-Should have enough internal capacity to hold stated capacity plus a half round. This ensures that the fully loaded magazine is easily seated during a slide forward reload. 

-Floor plate should not extend more than 3/16" past the sides, front or rear of the magazine box.

-Floorplate should be easily removable with the armors punch.  Routine disassembly of the magazine must not adversely affect the structural integrity of any magazine component. An excellent bad example is the Glock magazine.

-Magazine body must have witness holes for every round on the rear of the mag body.

-Any magazine surface coating must withstand 1000 cycles through the weapon without flaking, peeling or deteriorating.

-Magazine springs must be stainless steel.

Longeye,

I like your list.  I have one, possibly two disagreements.  The safety bar in the center of the trigger.  I think the Glock inspired trigger safety is one of the most useless and misleading scams ever foisted on the shooting public.  It has carried over to every striker fired handgun in one form or another.  To actually function as a safety, it requires that whatever intrudes into the trigger guard must only engage the outer edge of the trigger, but not the center safety.  For the M&P, it must engage the upper half of the trigger, not the lower.  Other than possibly a loose shirt getting caught while holstering, I have to manufacture bizarre, low probability scenarios to come up with something where that "safety" might actually be useful.  I think, this is not known fact, that Glock decided the Austrian Army would consider his pistol to be unsafe if it was obvious that his striker FCG was the equivalent of a cocked, single-action 1911 or Browning Hi-Power without a safety or a decocker.

I think that the trigger "safety" creates a psychological acceptance that it is a safety, even when you tell people that there if you press the trigger, it will go bang.  There is nothing else there, so keep your finger away from the trigger and use a holster that protects the trigger guard.  That is good advice for any gun, but to look at it from yet another angle, it is the equivalent of putting your cocked DA handgun in the holster without a decocker.

For that reason, I'd add a requirement for a single sided, user replaceable thumb safety that could be put on the other side of the gun for a left handed shooter.  

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Agree that safe-triggers are safety sugarpills (and have tried some scenarios: shirt in the holster can engage the safety features, fire the gun), but: 

  • I have seen SO many safeties come out of holsters not engaged. Holster not holding it in engagement it bumps off, bumped off on draw stroke way early, etc. etc. It sometimes seems similarly more propaganda than function. 
  • It seems to be that much harder to train around proper thumb safety usage than not. 

But maybe that's just me. Would love to hear thoughts on this. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Bluemonday posted:
jcustisredux posted:
Bluemonday posted:
jcustisredux posted:

 Does anyone have an argument FOR serrations at the front of the slide?

 

This is not a big deal when doing administrative manipulations, but it is a big deal and cuts down time when performing immediate action or remedial action to clear a stoppage.

What steps does your remedial action method consist of?

Immediate action = TRB.  Racking from the front facilities faster recovery to two handed grip.

Remedial action = Could be any of the commonly taught methods, it really doesn't matter because like with TRB above your hand still recovers to two handed grip faster when racking from the front.  For me, I use rip, load, rack, bang.

Do you accomplish this with slick slides, or ones with forward or mid-slide (ala Proctor) serrations?

Call me old-fashioned just untrained, but I watched his video and tried the technique.  The principle makes sense from a raw range of motion perspective, but throw in wet, sweaty, or bloody hands and fingers on a Glock-esque slad-sided slide, and I have hairs standing up on the back of my neck.

But enough derail.

--------
...with liberty and justice FOR ALL.  

 

Mad respect for Brando and the perseverance in his current fight.

The trigger bar safety is part of the drop safety function.

In any case, it is twice as many safeties as a double action revolver has, and without the exposed hammer.

The shirt/trigger entanglement possibility is there I suppose, but every case I have read about that a Glock fired down someone's leg will reholstering, the shooters finger was on the trigger. I have not yet seen a shirt jump into a trigger guard in a way that will function the trigger and its associated safety bar, short of contrived scenarios. Not saying that it has not or cannot happen, just that I have not run across the AAR of it.

I have more often observed pistols get presented without disengaging the safety or in the case of the 1911, failing to grip the pistol correctly and having the grip safety fail to release.

The bottomline is that brains are the ultimate safety.

 

For a duty handgun:

- Glock style slide but slightly taller, somewhere between a Glock and a Sig P229

- Sig E2 grip

- Barrel/slide length slightly longer then the current G17 so that it's flush with a TLR-1/Surefire (somewhere between the G17/22 and G34/35)

- Front cocking serations

- Red trinium or other front sight, solid black rear sight with a clean square notch

- ambi controls to facilitate strong/weak hang manipulation, maybe even a Walther style mag release

I'd be ecstatic if a Glock 19's guts  and mag could be squeezed  into the exterior of a Colt  Commander without changing the grip's dimensions.   For me nothing feels better than the 1911 frame.   Most importantly I like the overall  thinness and  nothing blocky .  JM Browning  had a way of trimming away everything that wasn't gun.

I'd keep the thumb safety.  It would make me feel better  reholstering and moving with gun in hand.

I like the pyramid shape of the Glock's mag and how it helps centering the magwell.

Bombproof adj. sights and not just as an afterthought.  I'd like a boss around the rear sight similar to the old Bren Ten for protection to for maybe front and rear.  Maybe a rotating system for front sight somewhat similar to the AR and the rear for windage. Variety of post and notch thickness to adjust for changing eyes. 

4 lb trigger that resets no farther than the breaking point.

 

Longeye posted:

The trigger bar safety is part of the drop safety function.

I don't follow, unless you are talking about something entering the trigger guard.  The striker block prevents movement of the striker unless the trigger bar moves to the rear and the camming surface releases the block.  I'm not privy to all of their testing, so I have to assume that for the trigger safety to function as part of the drop safety, the drop would have to be from sufficient height and striking directly on the back of the slide to generate enough momentum for the trigger bar to move to the rear, deactivate the striker block and trip the sear.

In any case, it is twice as many safeties as a double action revolver has, and without the exposed hammer.

Apples and oranges.  The DA revolver has a long DA trigger pull and an 8-13 lb pull weight.

The shirt/trigger entanglement possibility is there I suppose, but every case I have read about that a Glock fired down someone's leg will reholstering, the shooters finger was on the trigger. I have not yet seen a shirt jump into a trigger guard in a way that will function the trigger and its associated safety bar, short of contrived scenarios. Not saying that it has not or cannot happen, just that I have not run across the AAR of it.

I agree.  If it truly functions as part of the drop safety, it makes sense.  In this, it really doesn't.

I have more often observed pistols get presented without disengaging the safety or in the case of the 1911, failing to grip the pistol correctly and having the grip safety fail to release.

The bottomline is that brains are the ultimate safety.

And again, we agree.  From the origin of handguns, up until the mid-late 1800's, there were were no safeties because they had to be cocked manually.  Percussion revolvers introduced notches or pins between the charge holes to keep the hammer from inadvertently striking a cap if the gun was dropped.  When they changed to cartridges, the standard safety method against a drop was to leave one chamber unloaded and rest the hammer there.  Semi-autos resulted in a lot of different type of safety mechanisms.  Revolvers generally adopted a rebounding hammer or transfer bar to prevent accidents.  Other than a drop safety (if there was one), handling and using the gun safely seems to have had one common denominator.  A manual action to make the gun capable of firing (manual cocking or a deactivate a mechanical safety) or a relatively long, heavy double action trigger pull.

Striker fired guns eliminated those two safety concepts.  No manual operation other than pressing the trigger and a short, light trigger pull instead of a long DA pull.

I think the jury is still out on what works best with fallible human brains.  I'm still not convinced that a good mechanical safety isn't a good idea.  A good safety is one that is easily engaged or disengaged and that stays in position until you choose to move it.  For example, the M&P safety is in a good position, but it disengages too easily and is easily brushed to the off position. 

 

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

jcustisredux posted:
Bluemonday posted:
jcustisredux posted:
Bluemonday posted:
jcustisredux posted:

 Does anyone have an argument FOR serrations at the front of the slide?

 

This is not a big deal when doing administrative manipulations, but it is a big deal and cuts down time when performing immediate action or remedial action to clear a stoppage.

What steps does your remedial action method consist of?

Immediate action = TRB.  Racking from the front facilities faster recovery to two handed grip.

Remedial action = Could be any of the commonly taught methods, it really doesn't matter because like with TRB above your hand still recovers to two handed grip faster when racking from the front.  For me, I use rip, load, rack, bang.

Do you accomplish this with slick slides, or ones with forward or mid-slide (ala Proctor) serrations?

Call me old-fashioned just untrained, but I watched his video and tried the technique.  The principle makes sense from a raw range of motion perspective, but throw in wet, sweaty, or bloody hands and fingers on a Glock-esque slad-sided slide, and I have hairs standing up on the back of my neck.

But enough derail.

Slides with front serrations (and enough real estate; i.e. no sub-compacts)  such as the P320 or FNS-9 or a Glock with milled serrations.

I'm not familiar with what Frank Proctor does, just sharing with you a technique I learned that after getting over the initial shock has turned out to be a winner (I used to be an over the top rear Gunsite style slide racker).

Love, Loyalty, Life, Leadership

 

LOCATION:  The Sixth Borough (Miami)

 

EDC Pistol Training LLC

www.edcpt.com

 

 OK, guys, lots of good stuff...I would however like to see some reasons behind your criteria...

IE: why 15 rounds? why xxx weight? why XXX width, etc....

What prompted this thread, was the 2.0 thread here on LFer, and other forums where it seems that many of the things people complain about are just personal preference...or fairly minor.

So...

 Combat gun...for the purpose of this thread, I am talking about an exposed duty type handgun for a patrol officer, swat/srt officer, Soldier, etc No real regard for conceal-ability.

Reliable...how reliable is reliable? Don't know where the .mil and Fed agencies get their numbers, but it's probably a good place to start.

Durability(which is different from reliability) Again, don't know where the above get their numbers, but they are probably a good start.

   Say, 30K rounds....assuming a sedate, for many of us, firing schedule of 500 rounds a month, that's 6K a year..that's 5 years..for a $500 gun...that's not too bad. Better if  the frame and slide can be salvaged and the gun rebuilt.

 

 Accuracy. I would agree with Longeye, mechanical accuracy of 2" at 25yds, should give the shooter the ability to make a head shot at 25yds accounting for shooter skill. 

For the gun it self, starting from the top..

Sights:

 I prefer adjustable sights.  Understanding that they may not be ideal for a general issue firearm, I could live with sights that are simpler to adjust at the user level. Start with witness marks on the rear sight and slide, so it's not hammer to the left, shoot...too far, hammer to the right, shoot..too far..and so on. I've also envisioned tiny dimples across the bottom of the dovetail, that a small set screw would contact.

Perhaps a front sight similar to the new Colt Cobra or other revolver sights, that can be easily replaced for style or height with a small set screw or detent.

A slot or flat, could be used to ensure the sight is centered and squared.

 I'm not likely to adopt a red dot sight on a handgun in the neat future, but they are the future...so provision for one should be provided. If there was an industry standard that would be a plus.

Barrel:

 I also like match barrels, but this will fall back to the accuracy requirement.  I've often thought of a sort of screw in muzzle bushing, that is removed for disassembly and can be replaced to account for wear.

Width of the slide, or over all gun, is what it is, and what ever is required to make the gun accurate, durable and reliable. Beveled at the muzzle for re-holstering would be GTG. I can live with out front cocking serrations, but since they really don't hurt anything, put them on. The serrations, front and back on the SD9 seem to work well for me.

Loaded chamber indicator..I don't really have a need for one, but if one is required by policy or law, as unobtrusive as possible. Long ago, my 1911 smith was cutting half moon LCI in 1911 barrels, and it's OK enough. Either that, or a slight protrusion on the external extractor should be more then sufficient.

Enclosed action/striker fired:

 In one of my first classes with Paul Howe he spoke about inserting by helo, and the rotor wash kicking up so much crud, that it would foul the area between the hammer and firing pin stop of a 1911, causing serious issues. Even though I was a big 1911 guy, that has always stuck with me.

Trigger action:

 A single consistent trigger pull from first shot to last. Whether its a true DAO, SA or single and half action...as long as it stays the same.

Now, perhaps I'm just not refined enough, or am just a mouth breather...but I have never really been tuned into shit like "candy cane break, glass rod break, etc etc..smooth, etc. For me, it's either long or short, light or heavy. Shortish and lightish, being my preference.

As an aside, I find it comical when people play one ups-manship in describing a bad pull..."it feels like a rusty file being drug across a broken glass strewn gravel parking lot while peeing with a case of the clap"...that's right up there with the 1911 aficionado ensuring you know that he had his smith set his trigger to be 4.25 pounds "crisp"....whatever..either way...almost any trigger can be slicked up to suit the shooter.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that it's much more important to learn to shoot with a good trigger then it is to have one, once you are proficient.

I stopped caring about reset awhile back.

Trigger shoe:

I would prefer something as close to a Videcki short trigger as possible, but that's not really going to happen outside a 1911. If it has to have a trigger mounted safety, I prefer the M&P style.

 I have had the Glock style, stand a bit proud of the trigger face...enough that it took a concerted effort to depress it, as if it were stuck on something. This of course leads to snatched trigger pulls. I've also found that for my smaller hands, that I may not get the best trigger finger placement, which leads me to pulling on the outside of the trigger, before the the safety is fully depressed and released....again leading to jerked shots. I have not had this issue with the hinged trigger of the M&P. If it could be made of aluminum to eliminate some of the spongy feel both the glock and smith have, that would be nice, but not an absolute necessity.

Thumb safety:

 Sometimes I think I'm the last guy on the internet that likes them. Never mind from a mechanical stand point..but from a human stand point. It is a deliberate step in the firing sequence..it is also some insurance while running, rolling, holstering,falling, tripping, stumbling etc.

Pic rail dust cover...kinda self explanatory

Trigger guard large enough for gloved hands, under cut.

Modular grip, with at least an option for small, medium and large...figuring the large can provide the beavertail. I would figure it wouldn't be to hard for grip makers to come up with any number of sizes.

Grip texture. The checkering on Glocks never did anything for me. Something like the Glock RTF texture would be better. It should be simpler to sand down an over aggressive grip, then try to sharpen one up. These days I've taken to bike inner tube..

No open gaps that lead to the trigger or slide function. I have seen Glocks get enough dirt and crud in the grip hollow that you needed two finger to pull the trigger.

Lower bore axis...I think the late Todd Green showed that low bore axis was not the end all of muzzle control and split times. I couldn't tell you what my split times are..other then slow...and don't really care. But, a low axis for me, just makes me feel in more control of the gun, even just handling it...so it doesn't feel like the slide is just teetering above my hand. Certainly some excellent shooting can and has been done with high bore axis guns though.

materials & construction.  Not an engineer...so...obviously polymer lower, and reasonably corrosion resistant slide and small parts. I can see where even the most minimal amount of maintenance can be an issue..think of troops in the field, or high op-tempo special operations types ...I think most guys, Soldiers, patrol officers, etc can manage wiping it down once a week. That's probably a hold over from being taught on wood and blued steel guns.

Dis-assembly/Assembly ...preferably not required to pull the trigger to accomplish. Tool-less would be a plus, but if the tool was made a part of the gun, that could be acceptable. Most don't know, Browning designed the 1911 to be detail stripped using its own parts as tools, including removing the grip screws. Most important is if a basic field stripping and maintenance, like spring changes, can be easily accomplished in the field or at the kitchen table or barracks hallway.

 

 Probably missing some points, but that's what I can think of right now. 

I'll say this, I don't see any gun as perfect..or even perfect for me. I look at any gun as a starting point. What is easily fixed or modded...a trigger can be cleaned up, sights changed, even a match barrel fit, much more easily then the LOP changed, or finger grooves deleted, etc.

Other things I don't prefer, but live with, again to get  some other features that may not be available in other guns.

Despite what HK used to tell us, it's all a compromise.

 

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

When I was a young man, I wanted hot women. Today, I'll settle for not crazy. Diminished but realistic expectations. Same view with respect to combat handguns...

I can get used to  just about any proven service caliber handgun with decent ergonomics, capacity, trigger, and accuracy. Doesn't matter if it's SA, DA/SA, Striker-Fired, or DAO. Doesn't matter if it's a heavy all-steel piece or a feather weight chunk of Tupperware.  

What I really want from a combat handgun are two things difficult to actually accomplish:

1. Reliability. It should go bang every time, in all environments. It should feed & eject anything, even small rocks.

2. Durability. It shouldn't mechanically fail in my hand and should deliver extraordinary service life & round count. 

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The moral high ground is sometimes just a head on a long pike... - Astronomy

 

A new Plt Ldr is like a first time new mother. The Plt Sgt is a lifelong midwife and nanny. It's your baby but he knows a lot about changing diapers and other ugly things. - Astronomy

For me: a Glock 19 with steel, hi viz sights and a longer trigger pull. 

My trigger experience is DA revolver, stock Glock, DA/SA M9 and SA auto. I've never messed with LEM type triggers and don't know if that is what I'm looking for or not.

Basically a smooth trigger pull that is manageable but a little more soldier/Marine proof than a stock Glock trigger. I'm working off the idea that better training will never happen and were going with something that is more ND safe without going to heavy triggers or DAO type lawyer stuff.

Rationale is based on ww2 style pistol employment. I'm thinking pistol toting whermacht enlisted and Colt 1903s mailed to Johnny by uncle Bob. A pistol that can be a holster gun for an MP, a platform for an SF guy but can also be stuck in a magazine pouch on a plate carrier.

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