Proper wear of Hard Armor (with diagram)

Great post, Another vital tool to add to my toolbox. Something to keep in mind exspecially when out in the field.

"In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"

 

In memory of those who lived the good life and fought the good fight.

Good info!

What range are you using in MN?

Mikey

““To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.”” Carlos Castaneda

Nice range!

Mikey

““To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.”” Carlos Castaneda

Thanks, Panzer. Go Packers! Big Grin

------------------------------------------------------

* Eric

 

We must be able to apply the appropriate degree of force and discrimination, demonstrating a complete businesslike attention to detail; and if necessary, we must be able to kill with ruthless efficiency. -- MSG Paul Howe

 

Joined: 9/27/05              Location:  WI

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

 

Dear Panzerr,

thanks for the info, I had an experance which worked out a bit different to the above, don't know why. I was doing a unarmed combat course and managed to rupcher my diaphragm after a few blows. I carried on for 45 minutes (adrenalin, to dumb to know?) being assessed, a couple of days later when on my second trip to the hostipal they worked out what was wrong I was told 90% of my stomach was in my chest cavity. The point is i had a load of chest pain, but my breathing was not bad considering.  

Originally Posted by richard@assessedthreat.co.za:

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

 

Dear Panzerr,

thanks for the info, I had an experance which worked out a bit different to the above, don't know why. I was doing a unarmed combat course and managed to rupcher my diaphragm after a few blows. I carried on for 45 minutes (adrenalin, to dumb to know?) being assessed, a couple of days later when on my second trip to the hostipal they worked out what was wrong I was told 90% of my stomach was in my chest cavity. The point is i had a load of chest pain, but my breathing was not bad considering.  

 

Christ man, its tough to breath with your guts in your chest!

 

This is what is known as a traumatic hialtal hernia -where the stomach is pushed up through the opening in the diaphragm through which travels the esophagus and blood supply to the lower part of the body.  It's likely you were already living with a hiatal hernia and didn't realize it, only to have it traumatically exacerbated.  Symptoms of a hiatal hernia are similar to GERD and diagnosis is sketchy.  Your case is, of course, is taken to the extreme. It is very possible you may have some ongoing issues even after apparent reduction of the hernia.  

Originally Posted by panzerr:
Originally Posted by richard@assessedthreat.co.za:

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

 

Dear Panzerr,

thanks for the info, I had an experance which worked out a bit different to the above, don't know why. I was doing a unarmed combat course and managed to rupcher my diaphragm after a few blows. I carried on for 45 minutes (adrenalin, to dumb to know?) being assessed, a couple of days later when on my second trip to the hostipal they worked out what was wrong I was told 90% of my stomach was in my chest cavity. The point is i had a load of chest pain, but my breathing was not bad considering.  

 

Christ man, its tough to breath with your guts in your chest!

 

This is what is known as a traumatic hialtal hernia -where the stomach is pushed up through the opening in the diaphragm through which travels the esophagus and blood supply to the lower part of the body.  It's likely you were already living with a hiatal hernia and didn't realize it, only to have it traumatically exacerbated.  Symptoms of a hiatal hernia are similar to GERD and diagnosis is sketchy.  Your case is, of course, is taken to the extreme. It is very possible you may have some ongoing issues even after apparent reduction of the hernia.  

Ya Ive had better experiences in my life! It felt like I was having a frigging heart attack, I was operated on, they went in through my stomic and stitched the diaphragm back, It took a long time for the stomic area to feel good again, but its all good to go now.

Here is series of pictures that demonstrate the coverage differences of Large SAPI, Large BALCS, Large Velocity Systems VS13A for the Mayflower LPAAC and XL SAPI.

All pictures have the actual armor panels and plates flush at the top center. The extra material that you see sticking out is the environmental cover. I did not include plate backers in the pictures, as they are identical in size and shape to the corresponding plate size. You can clearly see how much extra coverage you get when jumping up from just a plate and backer to a full wrap system. Both systems have their place. Plate carriers offer superior thermal management and mobility at the expense of reduced frag and lIIA coverage. Full wrap gives you protection on the sides against LIIIA threats and frag, but insulates and depending on carrier design may limit ultimate mobility. Your choice between these two should reflect a look at your threat matrix, and your mindset going into the fight.

 

The Large VS13A appears to offer similar coverage to a Large BALCS in terms of square inches. Notice the location of the coverage. The VS13A wing covers high under the armpit. The BALCS has similar wing area but positions it slightly lower on the body. There are valid reasons for both. The LG BALCS will back a XL plate but the LG VS13A is not quite long enough to support a XL plate.

 

First Picture, L to R: XL First Spear Strandhogg SAPI cut w/ XL SAPI and VS plate backers, Large Eagle Maritime CIRAS with LG soft BALCS and XL SAPI, Large Mayflower LPAAC with LG VS13A armor panels, and LG Velocity Systems PBZ Light weight SAPI shape plate.

Armor 023

  

 LG VS13A (gray) over a LG BALCS (blue)Armor 027

 

 

Large PBZ (SAPI equivalent in Multicam) over LG BALCS (blue) over LG VS13A (gray)

Armor 030

 LG PBZ  (Multicam SAPI equivalent) over XL SAPI (black) over LG BALCS (blue) over LG VS13A (gray)

Armor 031

 LG PBZ  (Multicam SAPI equivalent) over XL SAPI (black) over LG VS13A (gray) over LG BALCS (blue)Armor 032

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Thanks for this important info. Hadn't donned my PC in a while and just decided to check its fit. My rear plate was sitting way too low. Now it's properly adjusted.

____________________"Requiring the police to do and be everything for everyone at any time doesn’t make sense. If you expect cops to be able to stop bleeding; start hearts; change tires; calm the irrational; comfort the heartbroken; control schizophrenics when doctors can’t; straighten out unruly students when five teachers can’t; make life-and-death decisions in split seconds; learn city, state and federal case laws and be able to understand, remember and execute the intricacies of over 2,000 general orders in the blink of an eye while engaged in bizarrely chaotic and dangerous situations in the middle of the night …We may, as a society, be nuts." - Jim Glennon

  This is a picture of the Large VS PBZ (MultiCam SAPI equivalent shape and size) over a L/XL MBAV backer panel (black) over a Large VS13A panel. Again, the top center of the armor is flushed up. Notice that the L PBZ just covers the L/XL MBAV top to bottom. An XL SAPI would actually be longer than the MBAV backer and will NOT be adequately supported by soft armor in the rear.

DSC02616

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since this is a thread that includes those that know and it is regarding fit of Hard Armor, I have the following question:

 

If wearing an LE MOLLE vest - SBA with the option of wearing pouches on the vest to get stuff off the belt - directly in the spot where a plate would go when putting on a plate carrier - does the plate loose effectiveness if there are pouches and contents between the soft armor and plate? does it matter if the plate is designed as an ICW or SA plate? 

 

TIA

Boltgun

Originally Posted by LobsterClaw0351:

Wasn't there a thread on here about proper wear of a "drop leg" holster? I thought I remembered seeing one, figured this would be the place to ask.... 

Nah, you took a wrong turn and should have headed for the "secondary weapons forum".
But the proper wear of a drop leg holster seems to be: don't

 

I guess you'r thinking about this thread: http://www.lightfighter.net/to...h-a-drop-leg-holster

 

There is a ton of videos on Youtube to.

 

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The only good thing about being a ground pounder in the airforce is that the higher ups don't know what I'm supposed to do, nor what I'm allowed to do. - a reflection made by me

Originally Posted by Boltgun:

since this is a thread that includes those that know and it is regarding fit of Hard Armor, I have the following question:

 

If wearing an LE MOLLE vest - SBA with the option of wearing pouches on the vest to get stuff off the belt - directly in the spot where a plate would go when putting on a plate carrier - does the plate loose effectiveness if there are pouches and contents between the soft armor and plate? does it matter if the plate is designed as an ICW or SA plate? 

 

TIA

Boltgun

Depending on the thickness of the pouches and contents, your plate fit is going to be pretty lousy. The best case is a carrier that supports both SBA and plate inside the carrier. In your scenario, the plate will work, but fit may be compromised, meaning vital coverage may not be optimal depending on how the pouches make the plate tilt. I would recommend running the front and back of your SBA carrier as slick as possible to get the plates in the auxiliary carrier to sit right.

 

Going up against a rifle, any plate- worn anyway- is going to be better than SBA alone.

Longeye, thanks for the reply...I understand fit will suck....will plate performance be an issue if not up against the SBA? I understand the aspect of angles opening up "chinks" in the armor context...nothing else though?

 

Boltgun

I'd also point out how long the front plate should be to cover all the vitals.  Ideally the plate would extend to the level of the belly button - the abdominal aorta divides into a left and right side, diverting from the midline at that level.

Having never donned a rifle plate, I can't speak to comfort/fitment issues with that level, but medically/ballistically, it would be a goal.

One day the Radical Jihadists are going to run into the wrong kind of Christian.

Race Bannon posted:

I'd also point out how long the front plate should be to cover all the vitals.  Ideally the plate would extend to the level of the belly button - the abdominal aorta divides into a left and right side, diverting from the midline at that level.

And that is one of the major reasons that I hate the generic 10x12 plate. It's coverage is not optimal unless you are a very small person. Even warrior sized people need and use bigger plates. SAPI Medium is the smallest size I recommend, and SAPI Large or XL is better for many people.

If "O" really wanted to do something positive for cops he would ban production of 10x12 plates, and propose a national standard shape and group of sizes for LE hard armor that mirrored the USGI one. The same could be done for SBA as well. Using the BALCS or Mayflower size grid would be optimal.

Race Bannon posted:

I'd also point out how long the front plate should be to cover all the vitals.  Ideally the plate would extend to the level of the belly button - the abdominal aorta divides into a left and right side, diverting from the midline at that level.

Having never donned a rifle plate, I can't speak to comfort/fitment issues with that level, but medically/ballistically, it would be a goal.

Indeed it would be ideal for maximal protection, as would a full level 4 face shield.  However a balance must be struck between protection and mobility and having a rigid rifle plate extend from the jugular notch to the bottom of the belly button will be problematic.  A plate of that size would limit forward flexion and if it were to extend from the jugular notch to the bottom of the belly button the plate would most likely be jammed into the shooter's throat on forward flexion.  

Wear your armor high, cover the heart and great vessels of the heart while still being able to move and shoot.  Worry about the rest later.

Would an abdominal soft armor carrier (i.e. nutsack flap) with a 6x6 MSAP plate cover the necessary vitals around the belly button while still offering flexibility?

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful."

It took me forever to find this article again, I should have bookmarked it years ago...  At any rate, great information!  I recently posted a video, for all the knuckle draggers that can't read...  I would have credited you in the video, but couldn't find it till after I shot it.  But I linked back to it in the text.

Thanks for sharing the information.  Too bad it hasn't reached the wider world, there is a lot of poorly set up armor out there...

https://kitbadger.com/plate-placement-for-body-armor/

Getting shot while wearing body armor sucks a lot less than getting shot without it.  It's still going to leave a mark.

Image may contain: one or more people and closeup

Sacramento Police Officer Tim Martin was shot on September , 2017.  This picture is from September 17, 2017.  Suspect assumed ambient temperature shortly afterward,

From his post on the book o' face:

"Some people think that body armor is like a magic shield that bullets ricochet from without harming the wearer. This is what it looks like 9 days after being shot with a .380 auto. The round hit me about an inch and a half from the bottom of my vest. At first I didn't know if it had hit my body armor. The proper term for it is bullet resistant, not bullet proof."

http://www.kcra*com/article/2-...d-pd-says-2/12193590

Wear your body armor.  Wear it right.  Don't change the way you wear it.  Change the way you approach the mission.

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

 

When violence is the local language, be fluent.

Trajan Aurelius posted:

Getting shot while wearing body armor sucks a lot less than getting shot without it.  It's still going to leave a mark.

Image may contain: one or more people and closeup

...



Wear your body armor.  Wear it right.  Don't change the way you wear it.  Change the way you approach the mission.

Thanks for posting, sharing this. 

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