Question on SBR application

I've searched around but didn't find the answer I was looking for.  I finally got the gun trust paperwork all in line and am getting ready to submit my application to SBR one of my AR lowers.  As I'm thinking about it, I was wondering if I could also put an AK on there that I was thinking about chopping down too?  For me, the getting the prints done is the biggest hassle; I fully expect to pay the fees for each rifle.  Was just wondering if I submit for both at the same time if I can save the PITA of getting 4 fingerprint cards done.  Or is it 2 fingerprint cards + application fee for each rifle/item regardless.

Thanks

"These are the rules. Everybody fights, nobody quits. If you don't do your job I'll kill you myself."

 

Joined: 04/01/2004     Location:  Twin Cities, MN

Original Post

2 cards per form. 2 guns = 4 cards. 

Be prepaired for them to be approved at different times. They will not be processed together. 

Do you have anyone else on the trust?  They need two cards per item as well.

“Be safe... drunk posting on some forums is almost as dangerous as drunk driving.”  - David Reeves

Yes, I do have another on the trust which doubles the hassle.  Co-trustee happens to be the wife so I figured if I could get away with one set of cards for 2 guns, that maybe I could sneak an extra one past her  I figured the answer to the question wouldn't go the way I hoped.  Thanks though.

"These are the rules. Everybody fights, nobody quits. If you don't do your job I'll kill you myself."

 

Joined: 04/01/2004     Location:  Twin Cities, MN

My understanding of current trust practice is that one gets the form approved with only one trustee (hence two cards), and then adds trustees once the stamp comes back. That could have changed, though. As with all things trust-related, my advice is to find a lawyer (not the forum kind) who does this stuff and ask him. Shouldn't be expensive or take much time.

I suppose technically you could do it that way, but striking and then re-adding trustees just to facilitate an NFA application seems legally tenuous to me.

For Form 1 on a trust: in addition to one Form 1 (which should print with 3 copies: ATF copy, ATF duplicate, and CLEO copy), every trustee needs a Form 23, also known as the Responsible Person Questionnaire. 2x print cards and 1 photo per trustee go to ATF. In this scenario do not answer the background questions on the Form 1 itself—the RPQ for each trustee satisfies that requirement. In addition to mailing your CLEO the appropriate copy of the Form 1, you must also mail your CLEO a copy of the RPQ (but no photo or prints).

If you download the Form 1 and the Form 23 from ATF and use Adobe it will auto-fill repetitive fields on multiple pages.

Re: prints...you can order print cards, Form FD-258, for free (I don’t have the address handy) and order a Sirchie ink pad and print yourselves. In this case, where the FD-258 says “signature of official taking fingerprints” you should write “self”—I just confirmed this on the phone with ATF NFA Branch last week.

You must also include a full copy of your trust, with all schedules, in the package you send to ATF.

Clear as mud? ;-)

I'm tracking everything you're saying.  I put to co-trustee on there for a reason.  I should have known better than to think the government would make things easy.

"These are the rules. Everybody fights, nobody quits. If you don't do your job I'll kill you myself."

 

Joined: 04/01/2004     Location:  Twin Cities, MN

Question:  Up to this point everything that needs stamps has been through a trust. 

If I register subsequent purchases to myself, aside from paying the tax a second time, would transferring to the trust be any easier than if I originally registered the item through the trust?  In other words any way to avoid the fingerprint cards, etc. for all each time?

All my kids are on my trust and I foresee problems actually rounding them up to get fingerprint cards, etc.

Removing them from the trust and then adding them back onto the trust after the stamp is received seems legally sketchy.

Thanks.

DLehr posted:

Question:  Up to this point everything that needs stamps has been through a trust. 

If I register subsequent purchases to myself, aside from paying the tax a second time, would transferring to the trust be any easier than if I originally registered the item through the trust?  In other words any way to avoid the fingerprint cards, etc. for all each time?

All my kids are on my trust and I foresee problems actually rounding them up to get fingerprint cards, etc.

Removing them from the trust and then adding them back onto the trust after the stamp is received seems legally sketchy.

Thanks.

You’ll go through he whole process all over again. The leg work will be on you to get all the prints. There’s no way to get around that anymore. The 2016 41F/P changes eliminated that entirely as it was precisely how people were getting around the fingerprints issue. In return we no longer need CLEO sign off on anything. 

The question becomes how often do your kids shoot your NFA stuff without you present?  If it’s not often or they have sufficient SBRs etc now missing out on one or two specific items might now be worth it. 

“Be safe... drunk posting on some forums is almost as dangerous as drunk driving.”  - David Reeves

And regarding the Trust issue (and by extension if a Company owned the item(s)), is it not only responsible parties -- that is, trustees -- who need to prints?  If your kids were beneficiaries (but had not say in the operation of the trust itself legally), they'd be able to possess the items, but not add/remove items? In much the same way that arguably any employee of Do Cool Shit, LLC could use/possess items in the performance of his duties, but only certain enumerated people can make purchasing decisions.  (I can use any of my company's computer equipment, but I am not the one signing or issuing purchase orders; senior managers do that.

Or am I misunderstanding?

Joined: 30 May 2003                  Location: SE PA

And this is why I suggest people skip the trust unless there is a compelling reason to do so: Adversarial local CLEO, potential need for HH6 to transport/use NFA items while you are on deployment, owning a firearms training company with multiple partners/employees (why wouldn't you just get a CIII, Type 07 at that point), etc. Outside of that, the trust is more hassle than just doing individual forms.

I've asked many of these same questions and never gotten a serious answer (read: one on ATF letterhead or perhaps from a reputable law firm).

My big one was, what stops me from removing all trustees except myself, applying for and getting the stamp, and then adding the trustees back?

It is my understanding also, that kids or wives don't need to be on the trust unless they are transporting your NFA items solo to/from the range or possessing them somewhere. If I go to the grocery store and my SBR is in my closet or safe or wherever, my wife and every other person in my house isn't illegally possessing it. So really the only need for trustees is those who will actually possess NFA items away from another trustee.

 

But of course, I'm always open to learn if I'm wrong. 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

LobsterClaw207 posted:

I've asked many of these same questions and never gotten a serious answer (read: one on ATF letterhead or perhaps from a reputable law firm).

My big one was, what stops me from removing all trustees except myself, applying for and getting the stamp, and then adding the trustees back?

It is my understanding also, that kids or wives don't need to be on the trust unless they are transporting your NFA items solo to/from the range or possessing them somewhere. If I go to the grocery store and my SBR is in my closet or safe or wherever, my wife and every other person in my house isn't illegally possessing it. So really the only need for trustees is those who will actually possess NFA items away from another trustee.

 

But of course, I'm always open to learn if I'm wrong. 

My motivation was to make sure things didn't get too sporty if something happened to me.

I'm with DLEHR, that was my sole intent with using my wife as the co-trustee.  Would she likely ever use the SBR without me around, probably not.  However, if I step off the curb and get mowed down by some asshole cabbie on a cellphone, I wanted NFA items to be the least of her concerns.

"These are the rules. Everybody fights, nobody quits. If you don't do your job I'll kill you myself."

 

Joined: 04/01/2004     Location:  Twin Cities, MN

LightScout posted:

I'm with DLEHR, that was my sole intent with using my wife as the co-trustee.  Would she likely ever use the SBR without me around, probably not.  However, if I step off the curb and get mowed down by some asshole cabbie on a cellphone, I wanted NFA items to be the least of her concerns.

Transfer after death is taken into account by NFA. You don’t need a trust for that. 

“Be safe... drunk posting on some forums is almost as dangerous as drunk driving.”  - David Reeves

Background: I am a deal lawyer. I'd like to think I'm good at my job. People pay me good money for this stuff, and I work regularly in a heavily regulated area. I do not claim any particular specialization in the NFA or in estate planning, though I have drafted more than my fair share of wills, revocable trusts, powers of attorney, and related documents for friends and acquaintences. I also have one NFA item on a trust, though that trust predates the 41F changes so the comparison is like apples to pears (closer than an orange, but still not the same).

The one thing that a trust definitely does better than anything else is take care of transfers post-death. While the NFA allows for a tax-free transfer of an NFA firearm to an immediate heir, and shelters a personal representative/executor from having to have its own tax stamp, there is still a form submitted to the ATF and they still have to issue a stamp. In other words, it's still a "transfer" within the meaning of the NFA, it's just a tax-exempt transfer.

With a trust, the stamp is issued to the entity, which is (in most modern jurisdictions) functionally immortal. As long as there is a trustee, a beneficiary, and some property held by the trust, it still exists -- so there is never a "transfer" and there never again needs to be a stamp.

I'll leave the questions of NFA consequences for someone else, but as a matter of trust law it is absolutely permissible (given appropriate language in the trust document) for a trustee to change the trust after formation. The 41F changes just made it so that the ATF has to sign off on the initial people responsible for the firearm -- but that change has no effect on the near thousand years of trust law that came before it.

As an aside, my personal read on the "constructive possession" issues to which Lobsterclaw alluded is that no, HH6 is not in illegal possession of an NFA firearm just from being in the house with your SBR. I would note, however, that there is a darned good argument to be made the other direction should someone ever decide to do so. One of the reasons I went the trust route was so that I could feel good about the wife knowing the combination to the safe without unintentionally committing a felony.

As I said before, this is a legal issue that requires a much more formal looking-into than can be had on an open forum. From the comments in this thread, it sounds like it's really an estate planning issue. NFA firearms are definitely a class of property that deserve special consideration in this regard, and I highly recommend that you find a good estate planning lawyer to talk through this with.

Add Reply

Likes (0)
Copyright Lightfighter Tactical Forum 2002-2016
×
×
×
×
×