Revolvers II

Wish I hadn't sold the S&W13 I went through the academy with.  Grips; I've always been fond of the Pachmayr's on my K&L frame square butts.  I used to go the T-grip way with my J & K round butt backups.  These days I'm a big fan of the VZ grips on both.

 

 

 

______________________

Hey y'all, watch this . . .

 

 Truckcop,

 What's the story on the two in the first pic. They look very nice.

 

 I thought about VZ's, I think they make them for a K square, but again, playing the grip game get's expensive, and really don't know if you like them or not, until it's to late. Kinda like holsters and boots.

 I played the grip game with 1911's, in the end USGI wood, or factory Colt rubber or Pach's were as good as anything, I guess.

 

 Anybody have any suggestions on holsters?

 I ordered a custom rig for my 586 from Jim Ryan, who said he could accommodate the adjustable front sight.

 Looking at perhaps a Lobo leather combat classic for the 3" M13, or maybe something from Jeffrey custom.

 

Bob

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 Truckcop,

 What's the story on the two in the first pic. They look very nice.

 

Bob

Top one started life as a 6" 686 I used for PPC.  My issued Smith 65 duty gun wasn't bulky or heavy enough for me so I sent the 686 to Andy Cannon for his "Street L" treatment.  Barrel shortened to 4" with integral comp, trigger job to double-action only, bead-blasted finish.  He did other mods (bobbed hammer, rounded butt) but I didn't take it that far.

 

The second gun is a 65, 3" round butt.  Except for the VZ's, all factory. 

______________________

Hey y'all, watch this . . .

Truckcop,

That model 65 with the shrouded ejector rod is pretty unique. You don't see many K Frames like that and especially not in a 3" gun. It makes for an even tougher carry gun. I wish my M65 came like that.

The 686 is also a sweet looking revolver. When I first saw it I tho

-------------------------
"Ignorance is a virus. Once it starts spreading, it can only be cured by reason. For the sake of humanity, we must be that cure."

 

 

 Thanks, I thought the 65 might have been a lady smith.

 Very nice, I'm gonna google andy cannon

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 

 Thanks, I thought the 65 might have been a lady smith.

 Very nice, I'm gonna google andy cannon

If I weren't so old and not secure in what's left of my manhood I'd say, No!  Not a LADYSMITH.  Not me!  But, you are correct sir.

Andy passed away a number of years ago.  Unfortunate.  He was a master.

______________________

Hey y'all, watch this . . .

Owned and sold:

2.5" M66

6" M28

6" M28, LNIB

4" M19

Current:

4" M19 w/ Hogues and Fed +P+ (wife gun)

6" blue GP100, w/ discontinued short ejector shroud (outdoorsy / hunting back up gun)

5.5" Single Six

 

Future:

2.5" M66 for sentimental reasons

3" or 4" GP100

 

If I could only have one wheel gun, I would go w/ the GP100. Lots of well thought out features, like a small hole in the front of the frame to depress the pilot bearing I presume if the gun is locked shut, off set notches. I carry it w/ 180 gr Buffalo bore. If you want to go the .357 route, it is built to handle it. Firing .38s in the GP is a joke in terms of contollability.

 

I wanted a Bisley Vaquero, but after playing with one, changed my mind.

Where to start....I won' t waste ban width on a list, but I have a few   revolvers.  I cut my teeth with them, and used them extensively during some very busy times in my young cop life.  I also shot a lot of speed steel with them.  Revolvers are awesome.  They are magnificent when run by someone who knows what they are doing.  They separate the hero's and zero's pretty quickly.   They have a bunch of benefits that are timeless.

 

First the good:

A retard can figure out the manual of arms, even from TV.  Their status is easy to determine even visually without touching the gun.  I think we had less administrative ND's with them because of being so easy to figure out if they were loaded or not, rather than the trigger.  

 

Their ammunition source is attached to the gun.  In some cases, this is good.  everything it needs to function properly is attached and can't come apart without some serious mechanical issues (I have a story about this...).  The ammunition also does not have to function the gun.  This gives a ton of latitude in what they will run on and loadings.  If revolvers were still popular LE guns, today's buckets for them would likely be amazing.

 

Trigger conducive to working under stress.  Not necessarily due to weight, but distance of travel and how the load up.  I like them for people management As well as carrying in ways I would never carry something like a Glock.  Much of the time driving these days, I have a revolver between the seat and the console or under my leg.....never with a Glock or similar.

 

Very "sock drawer" reliable.  If you put a loaded revolver in a sock drawer that was functional when you put it there...you can almost guarantee you can grab it (or one one of the many hidden all over the house) anytime for the rest of your life and it will go bang If needed.

 

Grips and sizes can be easily fit to almost anyone, and a model can be found to fit any task from large to small that is reliable for any mission or task. 

 

I'll continue this post later.....more to follow

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Originally Posted by Doug Mitchell:

Truckcop, what's the sight system on that J frame? I need all the help I can get.

That is a 640 Pro.  It uses dovetailed Trijicon night sights.  The 640 Pro is popular for those dedicated revolver shooters who carry a 5 shot as a primary weapon.  Very shoot able for what it is, but they are heavy for the size.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Originally Posted by nyeti:
Originally Posted by Doug Mitchell:

Truckcop, what's the sight system on that J frame? I need all the help I can get.

That is a 640 Pro.  It uses dovetailed Trijicon night sights.  The 640 Pro is popular for those dedicated revolver who carry a 5 shot as a primary weapon.  Very shoot able for what it is, but they are heavy for the size.  

Yep, what he said.

______________________

Hey y'all, watch this . . .

Some additional from my initial post on this.

 

The revolver is very simple to teach.  I believe that simplicity helps during crisis deployment as well.  

 

Pat may want to weigh in on this, but I noted in general that I think that "competent" revolver shooters tended to not go into panic empty the gun mode when caught behind the curve on reaction shootings (surprise defensive shootings), versus those incidents where officers were deploying gun in hand ready for a fight (offensive).  Just an observation that may be limited to my little section of the world.  

 

I found revolvers to work well as improvised impact weapons.  While this should always be a "plan c" option, the Hebrew Hammer worked far better than any of my polymer framed guns when I needed to create some space in a physical altercation while I had a gun in hand.......and I do mean FAR better.  Equally, I also found them good for entangled deployment.  

 

Reliability was was far better from non-traditional carry modes....particularly from pockets and ankle carry.  

 

Blasty.  I like something that comes with its own flash bang that leaves the muzzle along with the bullet.  Some of my revolvers are down right frightening to be around.  Big bore magnum snubs in particular.  My shorty Ruger Sheriff's Vaquero with a black powder load in .45 Colt at 1000 fps. will literally light an opponent on fire within a couple of yards.  It was my old "door answering gun" for this reason alone.  

 

snake shot.....reason enough to have one while in certain parts of the country.  My S&W 296 is my back pocket snake shot gun in certain places.

 

More to follow as I think stuff up.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

A revolver in a serious caliber, .44 Mag, .480 Ruger, etc. can be much more compact than a comparable semi-auto.

This, along with it's ability to carry a broader variety of ammo makes it a good choice for a "woods gun".

Carried a M-29 many a mile, knowing I could face shoot big fauna with it and penetrate to the brain was comforting (my .338 Mag was much better but way to big to carry with all of the gear we had to bring along sometimes).

Backing up any firearm carried as a primary was a J-frame (usually 638 or 640).

Bad people respected the .44 Mag. and the mere presence may have helped calm some of them down.

It, the .44 Mag., with the right ammo could penetrate a motorcycle engine, ATV engine or snow mobile engine as our guys proved when some cretin's tried to run them down with snow machine's and ATV's.

Art

 

Adding some more stuff:

 

Something I came up with a couple years ago that I confirmed with Pat and some other folks with revolver time involving humans.  I picked this up with the LEM in my P30 and remembered it with my DA autos, but it really stood out with the revolvers.  You can see your trigger press.  During a crisis tactile feeling tends to go a little numb.  You can feel but things like the weight of a trigger or its feel don't register well.  What does go through the roof is visual perception.  You see with some amazing clarity and pick up a lot of minute details.  If you get your gun in front of your eye, you can actually see the hammer moving.  If it is moving smoothly it confirms you are pressing smoothly.  I find seeing that hammer moving smoothly in my peripheral vision is an indicator if I am going to fast.  

 

More to follow...

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Iv'e been carrying my trusty Model 10's in the streets of New York for over 35 years. I have never felt at a disadvantage and the round has done its job if I did mine. The only exception was the 158gr SWC's that failed to drop a polar bear but that's another story.

I am a revolver fan... I currently have a DAO GP100 4" and a security six 4" as well. I also have a 638 wearing Eagle secret service grips which is one of my favorite pocket/BUG set ups.  I did have a Gemini Custom SP101 at one time but that was a while ago... 

"Those who beat their swords to plowshares will plow for those who do not" "Old swordsmen get to be that way... by being very good"

As is my usual move, I find myself lusting over the awesome guns in here and wondering about acquiring one of my own.


My arsenal has most every time of common firearm in use except a revolver. 

 

I want to get something full size, not carry. I want to get something with some panaché, or history behind it (thinking something cool issued to legendary cops or something, or something with lineage in our military.) Not thinking antique or real old, but at least something I can look at and feel like it's got some sort of historical weight. Sorry if that's vague.

 

I also can't dump $1200 on another "fun" gun. Thinking in the $800 range. Help me Obi-Wan Lightfighters, you're my wallet's only hope. 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

 

 

 Model 10's were issued to NYPD for how long?

 Model 64's also, later the NY-1 package.

 Victory model .38's

 3" Model 13's were issued to FBI for a long time

 M1917's Colt & S&W are pretty cool.

 4" 586/686 are cool and versatile.

 Old school PPC type revolvers are just way cool

 

 Bob

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Model 10. The classic cop .38 still being made. Or a Model 19.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 

 Model 10's were issued to NYPD for how long?

 Model 64's also, later the NY-1 package.

 Victory model .38's

 3" Model 13's were issued to FBI for a long time

 M1917's Colt & S&W are pretty cool.

 4" 586/686 are cool and versatile.

 Old school PPC type revolvers are just way cool

 

 Bob

Bob, they were never *issued*.
You had to buy the gun from the Equipment Section, so none were marked in any special way.

Unsure when they started, but one Uncle when on the Job in 1946, and I shot his M&P.
It was authorized until maybe 1990.


They did authorize the M64 when they phased out the M10

 

 

 

 Pat, for as many times as you've said that, and others on the job I know have told me, I brain farted, I should've said authorized I guess.

 

 From my research, it looks like S&W marked some Model 64's NY-1 to indicate specs set forth by NYPD, I think they had some Ruger counterparts also. But no markings done by the Dept.

 

either way, I think those are some classic police revolvers, from the PD that is probably most identified with a revolver.....at least these days.

 

 My buddy, is asking his co-workers if any of them have an NY-1 they want to sell me..

 

Bob

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 

 Pat, for as many times as you've said that, and others on the job I know have told me, I brain farted, I should've said authorized I guess.

 

 From my research, it looks like S&W marked some Model 64's NY-1 to indicate specs set forth by NYPD, I think they had some Ruger counterparts also. But no markings done by the Dept.

 

either way, I think those are some classic police revolvers, from the PD that is probably most identified with a revolver.....at least these days.

 

 My buddy, is asking his co-workers if any of them have an NY-1 they want to sell me..

 

Bob

 The 64 NY-1 were DAO. They are around. I'm going to grab one when I can or just bob the hammer on my Model 10. Female patrol officers in the 70's carried 3 inch model 60's. I don't know when they also went to the model 10 or if it was ever required.There was also some Rugers and Colt Police Positives but I have no idea when they went away.

I have never in my life had any desire to own a revolver.  Until these damn threads started.  Then my local shop gets in a shitload of retired Puerto Rican State Police revolvers.  Now I have a 2" and 4" S&W 10-7.  Loving them so far.  Definitely more challenging then any of my semi autos. 

"A pirate is not the sort of a man who generally cares to pay his bills...and after a time the work of endeavoring to collect debts from pirates was given up."

          -Frank R. Stockton

The 3" square Butt was the policewomans (there is joke there someplace) until they became Police Officers in 1973,
Originally they wore skirts and very expensive hats and carried that 3" M36 in a JP service holster.
Eventually they went to pants and the 8 point had and M10.
The job had a bunch of those 3" M36 that they sold at under $50...

Re bobbed hammer.

If you managed to break your hammer (generally by dropping it) the Gunsmith would not replace it.
They just smoothed it out and returned it to you.

The M60 NY-1 guns were problematic and they sent the whole first batch back (as I remember it...)

Originally Posted by LobsterClaw207:

As is my usual move, I find myself lusting over the awesome guns in here and wondering about acquiring one of my own.


My arsenal has most every time of common firearm in use except a revolver. 

 

I want to get something full size, not carry. I want to get something with some panaché, or history behind it (thinking something cool issued to legendary cops or something, or something with lineage in our military.) Not thinking antique or real old, but at least something I can look at and feel like it's got some sort of historical weight. Sorry if that's vague.

 

I also can't dump $1200 on another "fun" gun. Thinking in the $800 range. Help me Obi-Wan Lightfighters, you're my wallet's only hope. 

 

You really can't go wrong with a K-frame Smith.  I'm partial to the Model 19 (blue) or Model 66 (stainless) in .357.  They are out there for enough under your budget that you can find wood grips, leather, speedloaders, and a couple of boxes of ammo if you shop well.

 

Model 10s, 64s, etc are also exceptionally cool. 

 

"Speed's fine, but accuracy is final" - Bill Jordan

Originally Posted by LobsterClaw207:

As is my usual move, I find myself lusting over the awesome guns in here and wondering about acquiring one of my own.


My arsenal has most every time of common firearm in use except a revolver. 

 

I want to get something full size, not carry. I want to get something with some panaché, or history behind it (thinking something cool issued to legendary cops or something, or something with lineage in our military.) Not thinking antique or real old, but at least something I can look at and feel like it's got some sort of historical weight. Sorry if that's vague.

 

I also can't dump $1200 on another "fun" gun. Thinking in the $800 range. Help me Obi-Wan Lightfighters, you're my wallet's only hope. 

There are the "run of the mill" guns, some fictional ones, and some expensive, but still duty guns.

 

My personal opinion.

First, I prefer S&W, followed closely by Ruger.  Colt is not on my list.  The K and L frames are probably the most versatile and universal sizes.  Grips are available to fit most any hand, especially if it has a round butt.  The L-Frames are beefier than a K, but with the same grip.  They were made to handle .357 mag all day long.  A 4" Model 19 K-Frame is probably one of the nicest handling revolvers you'll ever get.  They are light enough to carry comfortably all day long, not too big, look good, etc.  They are not as strong as a Ruger and if you feed them a heavy diet of .357mag, you will eventually destroy it.  If you stick to .38 most of the time, they wll do fine.  The fixed sight K frames in .38spl were long time police staples.  They were also issued to flight crews post WWII and a number of them were parkerized and issued during WWII.

 

Probably the premier old S&W would be a WW1 vintage M1917 in .45acp.  That would be cool.

 

The large frame Smiths are the N Frames, made in .357mag, .41mag, .44mag, .45acp, and in rare variants, .44spl, .45 Colt, and 10mm.  For "fictional" guns, check out the Indiana Jones movies and look for a 1930's Triple Lock.  Or Dirty Harry and a blued Model 29 6".  Sledgehammer had a 6" stainless Model 629.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Originally Posted by Gunner:

I have never in my life had any desire to own a revolver.  Until these damn threads started.  Then my local shop gets in a shitload of retired Puerto Rican State Police revolvers.  Now I have a 2" and 4" S&W 10-7.  Loving them so far.  Definitely more challenging then any of my semi autos. 

 

No shit. That's where I'm at, never knew I needed one until checking out these threads.

 

Thanks for the responses, I've got a good idea what to look for now. 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

The 3" square Butt was the policewomans (there is joke there someplace) until they became Police Officers in 1973,
Originally they wore skirts and very expensive hats and carried that 3" M36 in a JP service holster.
Eventually they went to pants and the 8 point had and M10.
The job had a bunch of those 3" M36 that they sold at under $50...

 

 They may have been the chic gun, but my 3" M36 is neat little gun.

 I paid a $100 for mine a few years ago, in less then stellar condition.

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Had to throw in my two cents on this one.  I'm not a revolver guy, but I think everyone should have a few.  I currently own 3: a 4" smith 66 no dash, a 4" model 15-3 I just picked up last week for $375, and a ruger LCR.  I shoot revolvers well, and really like the things.  I am teaching some guys at my PD how to shoot the PPC course for an upcoming firarms instructor school.  The first 2 phases are the "marksmanship phase" and you have to shoot the PPC course before going on to the combat pistol phases (3 more weeks).  You can shoot a revolver or semi in the marksmanship phase, and most choose the wheel gun.  When I went through the school the wheel un was a requirement.  While somewhat outdated, I look at having to spend 2 weeks shooting a revolver as some of the best training I ever got.  I believe it made me a much better auto pistol shooter.  

 

I like shooting and carrying the revolver in certain situations.  With with light wadcutter .38s, it's like shooting a heavy .22 pistol.  Relatively quiet and very little recoil.  Plus, if I'm going out hunting or some such activity, I like to be able to load up the 66 with heavy .357 loads and feel confident I can poke holes in whatever I might run into locally.  My wife's "house gun" is one of the Smiths loaded with modern hollow points. She finds it much easier to load and shoot than any of my other handguns.  

 

When I was teaching the younsters to shoot, they started with .22s, worked their way up to the revolver, and now my son shoots a G19 very competently.  He still has a soft spot for the 66.  

 

I use a simple Fobus holster for shooting the PPC course on the range along with safariland comp 2 speed loaders.  Both are basic, but work.  I've always fought with grips, and have yet to find the grail on that.  I think that's a never ending battle.  

 

Basically, revolers are cool, still useful, and I wish I had money to buy more and shoot more.  

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Originally Posted by LobsterClaw207:
Originally Posted by Gunner:

I have never in my life had any desire to own a revolver.  Until these damn threads started.  Then my local shop gets in a shitload of retired Puerto Rican State Police revolvers.  Now I have a 2" and 4" S&W 10-7.  Loving them so far.  Definitely more challenging then any of my semi autos. 

 

No shit. That's where I'm at, never knew I needed one until checking out these threads.

 

Thanks for the responses, I've got a good idea what to look for now. 

A good used, not collector grade K38 (M14 in its variants) should run well inside your budget. It's the 6" target version of the classic K frame. Hard to go wrong. Load it with .38 wadcutters from Black Hills and you will have too much fun and some good practice. Hand load some .38-44 equivalent 160-170 grain SWCs and you can do a lot with it. A late model K frame will handle that load ok - probably better than your hands will. It's considerably more stout than any +P load, especially modern ones. If you really want to be able to load .357s in it for some reason, the 6" M19/M66 should shoot just as well, but they are harder to find at a decent price. 

 

Another great choice is a later model 25 (more precisely, a 25-2). It's a 6" N frame target revolver in 45ACP. Works best with moon clips. You can also load up some stout stuff in 45AR cases with heavy SWCs and it will do for anything short of Moose. You do have to watch for the chamber mouth dimensions, but there are a ton of strings on the S&W forum about the issues. Earlier ones, up to the end of the pinned barrel era (82-ish) tend to have oversize chamber mouths and many shoot like shit. Likewise the ones in 45 Colt. Should be .452; some are big as .457 or .458.

 

M28s (Highway Patrolman) are getting up there, damned near to M27 prices sometimes, since it is basically the same gun with a plain finish and less handwork. I doubt you want a Triple Lock (.44 Hand Ejector First Model) as they are collector's items in good shape, and not near as hardy as later model N frames due to the lack of heat treating.

 

If you come to a decision, I belong to the S&W forum and try to keep current, so I can look for shit and send you info. There is a guy selling his customized L frame (almost like an M65 on steroids) that is pretty neat looking.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

I always have had a couple revolvers around. I like shooting them and since I reload .38spcl it's not that bad on my wallet to shoot a bunch. These are my two most recent purchases. I have a model 64 incoming. 

 

S&W model 28-2 4" Highway Patrolman in .357. Shooting.38's in it is very pleasurable and .357 magnums is not bad at all. I shoot way more.38's through it though. It was purchased through gunbroker recently under $500. I changed out the S&W grips for a set of VZ grips in blacK. These are the ones with the grippy diamonds.

 

The next one is a S&W 544 in 44-40. It is the Texas Sesquicentennial model. I've got the matching box, but the other stuff that it came with is missing. It has not been fired, but I did dry fire it a time or two and it has a very nice trigger. It may be on the chopping block as I need a new scope for a bolt gun. 

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LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 

 

 M1917's Colt & S&W are pretty cool.

 

 

 Bob

 

These are what I would pursue.

 

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“The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of “loyalty” and “duty.” Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute – get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed.”

- Robert A. Heinlein

 

Joined: 4/22/09          Location: WI

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

I have a 1917 Smith.

And a 1909 Colt New Service, .45 Colt.



 

Got any pics? 

 

We need a "drooling" emoticon to go with pics of cool guns!

 

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“The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of “loyalty” and “duty.” Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute – get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed.”

- Robert A. Heinlein

 

Joined: 4/22/09          Location: WI

Not Pat, but here is my 1909 Canadian Northwest Mounted Police Colt that is in .45 Colt (Canadians rechambered them from .455 Eley).  Shown with its holster.  If this one could talk.......

 

 

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image

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

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