Semiauto .308 rifles for LE snipers

Hit me. What's the good word? When people ask me, my answer is basically "Larue OBR"... but I don't really know. 

 

Typical L/E sniper, what .308 semiautomatic rifle are you using? 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

Original Post

Not LE, or a sniper...  But do own a couple LMT MWS rifles, which is a combat proven system used as a DMR for the MOD.

My 2 copies have been flawless and both of my 6.5CM barrels are sub moa.  I have 2 chrome lined 308 barrels (14.5" pinned and a 16") that hover around 1.1-1.5 MOA with match/hand loads.  I do have a 18" SS match barrel in 308, but haven't had a chance to test it for groups.  The biggest positive is the switch barrel system and going from 308 to 6.5CM, 260 REM, 243, 338 Federal (would be a sweet Moose load) etc.  The negative is that they are HEAVY.  

I used to own a Knight's SR25 ECC and it was the softest shooting AR10 rifle I've ever shot, but could never get it sub MOA, and ended selling if for MSRP to buy the LMT rifles.  The latest KAC rifles being released are very tempting with their lower price points.  

Other vetted names: Larue (as you mentioned), Knights SR25, HK 417, and I have heard good things about Mega Arms.  I have one of their AR10 lowers and it matches up pretty well with my LMT upper.  

 

Thanks homes. I'm curious about the barrel switch capability, what is the benefit of that over just swapping an upper receiver out? Only needing one optic (don't the barrel swaps require re-zeroing anyway, so removing and remounting the optic isn't that awful of a task?)

We only run .308, so we wouldn't really need that feature, but it's good to know about.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

One of the guys on my team had a LMT MWS that he could never get to hold much under 2 moa with our 168 Hornady Tap ammo.

I have a JP LRP 07 that does ok but chasing tiny groups with it is frustrating.  I attended an FBI enhanced sniper course with it and could not pass the final qual.  I was told they have only had one gas gun pass that particular qual.

Im not ready to completely abandon bolt guns.

___________________
He would have went on livin, but he made one fatal slip, when he tried to match the Ranger with the big iron on his hip.

Don't wish it were easier; wish you were better

I heard the gold standard  for a precision .308 AR is the GAP 10?  Saw a lot of high speed guys using it at a LR precision class.  Every range report I've seen is sub-MOA.  I would have sprung for one if I wasn't already heavily invested in another .308 AR.

http://www.lightfighter.net/to...obr-long-56k-warning

Not much has changed since I posted that. Life happened and the test setups I had intended to run haven't happened. I need a lot more data on the gun. There was another thread where some things were discussed regarding first round POI. I have a feeling that how the first round is loaded, possibly even which side of the magazine the first round comes from, will effect the POI for that round.

I did swap out the Atlas bi-pod for a Harris on a GG&G interface, which I personally prefer.

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"A pistol is what you carry when you do not expect a problem. If you expect a problem you can't avoid, and you are not taking a long gun, you are not very smart." - DM

 

Joined: 04Nov2007         Location: Indiana

About LaRue Firearm Accuracy:
LaRue accuracy is known world-wide. The accuracy of each LaRue Rifle is proven at our 100-yard tunnel using match-grade ammunition. No LaRue firearm can leave the facility unless it obtains accuracy of less-than 1 MOA (1.047 at 100 Yards. Each firearm ships with a copy of a 3-round group obtained from that actual firearm. While we guarantee the rifle is capable of sub-MOA accuracy, we can not guarantee the end-user will be able to shoot sub-MOA…since we have no control over shooting proficiency, familiarity with the system, ammunition choice, environmental factors, etc. LaRue firearms are precision instruments that require discipline, training, proper ammunition and maintenance to yield the best results.

(taken from their 7.62 OBR website)

IN NEED OF A GUN WHEN I CAN'T reach for 911 

Our guys who use semi-auto's have LWRC REPR's....can't really provide much more info because I'm not a sniper but from what I understand there are better platforms out there for sure.  

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

I'll bring all of my shoes and my glasses....so I have them 

Our county guys have 3 copies of the OBR.  If you don't mind shooting only the 175gr FGMM, they're great.  Problem is, we shoot Hornady or Black Hills 168gr AMAX for terminal ballistics reasons.  It hates that stuff.  It knocks off the tips while cycling (seen this too many times to count) and accuracy is nowhere near what would be expected.  I built a DPMS pattern gun just out of parts I chose that was much better than the OBR accuracy-wise, and ran without issue.  I sold it because it was so damned heavy, and I didn't want to qual every time with two rifles.

I don't want to bash the OBR - just a heads up in case you used a certain type of ammo like we do.  

The only other gas gun I saw stretched out much was a DPMS SASS at a LE sniper school I put on.  It broke on day two of shooting.  We got it fixed and back into service - and the guy passed - but it didn't give me a warm fuzzy.  Lastly a friend has a DRMO KAC that he can't get to run at all.  Big giant POS, even though it looks great.  

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

We purchased LMT rifles last year for our suppressor testing & research work.

With regards to .308 Win, we bought an LM8 MWS with 13.5", 16" and 20" barrels. Chromed lined, not the SS match barrels.

Accuracy at 100 meters with the factory bird cage flash hiders was c. 1.1-1.5 MOA with Lapua 167gr factory ammo. Really consistant shooting.

With our BoreLock flash hiders and suppressors the accuracy at 100 meters has been c. 0.9-1.5 MOA.

Been 100% reliable as well. Much rounds to be shot through them, but our experiences are very positive and mirror the reputation their products have.

In addition to the UK MoD contract earlier, they have now been chosen as service weapons in a number of countries, including some of our customer countries.

Couple of the best 100 m groups from the testing:

Prototype SL series, lower pressure suppressor  + LMT LM8 MWS .308 Win 20" with 167gr Scenar




jet-Z COMPACT-BL suppressor + LMT LM8 MWS .308 Win 20" with 167gr Scenar
( Suppressor removed between every shot  )

Is it just me, or does it seem like 308 AR platforms are an enigma, compared to 5.56 versions of the design? Or are we demanding more accuracy from them for a "precision" setup, so the problems show up more starkly?

 

I'm just curious why it seems easy these days to find a top quality 5.56 rifle, but far harder to choose a .308 of the same design.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:     Lobster emoticonMAINELobster emoticon

I don't know what the deal is with .308 ARs. My OBR is a total clusterfuck with some ammo, but around 0.8MOA with 168gr AMAX and 0.7MOA with 180gr Nosler Accubonds loaded by Black Hills. Meanwhile on Planet DOCINAK, 155AMAX is great. Over on planet SPDSNYPR, AMAX is no-go across the board.

To those two specifically, how long are your barrels and what kind of buffer/spring setup are you running? I'm 16" with a carbine buffer system using a Heavybuffers XH and the factory Sprinco Red. That Sprinco Red has been swapped out with a Wolff XP, but I have zero rounds out with this configuration.

I believe something is fucked up on a fundamental level when how you chamber the first round has an obvious effect on where it will end up. Charging handle or bolt release? Top round on right or left? - These things shouldn't matter, at least not to the degree that they do.

______________

"A pistol is what you carry when you do not expect a problem. If you expect a problem you can't avoid, and you are not taking a long gun, you are not very smart." - DM

 

Joined: 04Nov2007         Location: Indiana

Following for the info. Our agency recently acquired 2 Larue PredatOBR in 308 for sniper roles. One has glass carried over from a 556 that will change the other is still naked. Waiting on decision makers to decide..... A few rounds will go down on Monday. I'll report back and keep updating as necessary

My OBR is sub-moa with most match ammo I have tried. I have only shot 168 and 175 through it, in Black Hills, Federal and Corbon - with the 175 118LR being its favorite. I am not a sniper on our team, but the OBR performed without issue at GPS Defense for me.

Our team just bought a couple of Nemo .308's that seem to be universally loved by the guys I have talked to. Not sure on dtails beyond that.

"Fuck your mom in her dirty whore mouth, you felching, obdurate, acerbic, petulant little enfranchised fucking twit. How's that for vocabulary, motherfucker?" ~ 5.56 Grave

 

Joined: 10-14-2003                                        Location: Indiana, USA

Twist rates?

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I have been running a 16" LaRue 7.62 OBR  with Nightforce 3.5-15x50 glass on our regional team.  When I do my part the weapon system shoots sub moa consistently.  We currently issue Federal 168 GMM (open air) and Federal 165 Bonded Soft Point (barrier).  One of the other snipers pushed for the 168 Hornady AMax.  We are awaiting shipment so I can't comment much on this. I was able to procure ten rounds of the 168 AMax.  It functioned flawlessly and shot same POA/POI as the Federal GMM within 100 yards. 

Initially, my OBR had problems with Federal 150 FMC and would not reliably eject same.  Never had problems with the GMM nor BSP,  just the FMC.  The staff at LaRue bent over backwards to address the problem.  They replaced the barrel and it has run like a sewing machine since with all ammunition.

As an aside, it is a very soft-shooting rifle. 

HTH.

Joe

 

 

 

 

 

 

LobsterClaw207 posted:

Thanks homes. I'm curious about the barrel switch capability, what is the benefit of that over just swapping an upper receiver out? Only needing one optic (don't the barrel swaps require re-zeroing anyway, so removing and remounting the optic isn't that awful of a task?)

We only run .308, so we wouldn't really need that feature, but it's good to know about.

For a LE only rifle, the barrel change option wouldn't be that big of a deal.  I don't see the legal department wanting a part time SWAT officer swapping from a 13.5" to a 20" 308 barrel to a 338 Federal barrel to put down a injured Moose.  

My zeros have been repeatable (across the MWS and MRP platforms), but not something I would risk a potential hostage's life on.  It would make it easy for armorers to convert the rifle from a patrol man's setup to a DMR/sniper setup etc.  

For a civilian it is great.  It allows me to have a 20" 6.5CM, 18" SS 308, or 338 Federal in the same platform.  It saves me money on optics and safe space.  

Dorsai posted:

Twist rates?

Was that ref the Nemos our team bought? If so, I have no idea. Just know they bought 2-3 and love them.

"Fuck your mom in her dirty whore mouth, you felching, obdurate, acerbic, petulant little enfranchised fucking twit. How's that for vocabulary, motherfucker?" ~ 5.56 Grave

 

Joined: 10-14-2003                                        Location: Indiana, USA

ipdb322 posted:
Dorsai posted:

Twist rates?

Was that ref the Nemos our team bought? If so, I have no idea. Just know they bought 2-3 and love them.

Do you know if they got the 16" Tango 8 MSP? Or the full size 20" SASS?  This thread is actually great timing because, while I'm not a sniper, we are sending guys to school soon and will be looking to get some more rifles and I believe looking to start shying away from the REPR.

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice

 

I'll bring all of my shoes and my glasses....so I have them 

We bought 3 Sig 716 DMRs for our team.  2 have gone back to Sig, yet to return.  One shot 3 MOA and the other shot cold bore 6+ inches low.  

I know that one other team in NC has sent Sig their rifles back.  Has anyone had any success with them?  

We really want a good SA to use based on rural ops.  

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke

 

"Gunfights don't happen only on bright, sunny days when cotton ball clouds drift across an impossibly blue sky with rivers of chocolate and trees that give beer....." - Pat Rogers

Tropleo posted:
ipdb322 posted:
Dorsai posted:

Twist rates?

Was that ref the Nemos our team bought? If so, I have no idea. Just know they bought 2-3 and love them.

Do you know if they got the 16" Tango 8 MSP? Or the full size 20" SASS?  This thread is actually great timing because, while I'm not a sniper, we are sending guys to school soon and will be looking to get some more rifles and I believe looking to start shying away from the REPR.

Just texted one of the guys. He said they got two .308's with 16" barrels, and a .300 win mag with 20" barrel.

"Fuck your mom in her dirty whore mouth, you felching, obdurate, acerbic, petulant little enfranchised fucking twit. How's that for vocabulary, motherfucker?" ~ 5.56 Grave

 

Joined: 10-14-2003                                        Location: Indiana, USA

FastSS posted:

I don't know what the deal is with .308 ARs. My OBR is a total clusterfuck with some ammo, but around 0.8MOA with 168gr AMAX and 0.7MOA with 180gr Nosler Accubonds loaded by Black Hills. Meanwhile on Planet DOCINAK, 155AMAX is great. Over on planet SPDSNYPR, AMAX is no-go across the board.

To those two specifically, how long are your barrels and what kind of buffer/spring setup are you running? I'm 16" with a carbine buffer system using a Heavybuffers XH and the factory Sprinco Red. That Sprinco Red has been swapped out with a Wolff XP, but I have zero rounds out with this configuration.

I believe something is fucked up on a fundamental level when how you chamber the first round has an obvious effect on where it will end up. Charging handle or bolt release? Top round on right or left? - These things shouldn't matter, at least not to the degree that they do.

i am running a stock 16" Larue OBR. what ever that entails. My ammo is hand loaded. i have shot MOA out to 600 yards with 155 Amax and  Sub .5MOA at 100 with the same (not all the time but I have repeated it). i have little factory ammo. I have some Remington 168 Match.. and it shoots it "ok". But with hand loads I have developed Sub MOA loads for 125, 155 and 169 Slugs... My scope is  either a 3x9 VXIII Leupold or a SS 20X.

I admit the "norm" for me is 3 touching or smaller followed by a "god fucking damn it" followed by back in the hole of the first 3.

The gene pool needs some chlorine.

 

Joined: 4/7/03   Location: Renton, WA 

Not sure where you are located but I have had excellent luck out of my 2 Gen1 GAP 10s one is a 23" 6 creed that i ran with much success in competitions and the other is an 18" 308 that, if you are close enough to pick it up, I'll let you run it a week or so to decide for yourself.

We had our Knight's Mk11 Mod 1's converted to SR-25 E2s and mounted Leupold Mark 6 3-18X optics on them.  Very impressed with the accuracy of the rifle.  They group sub MOA with AB39 and during an Accuracy 1st course last year we had them out to +1000 meters (quite a bit past what our operational requirements are).  We shot them against OBRs and they held their own to our satisfaction.   The gun is extremely light thanks to the key-mod rail, however we had to lock tight the picatinney rail attachments for the bi-pods and PEQ as the recoil loosened them up.  Also we initially had an issue with the suppressors working their way loose after 100 rds or so down range.  KAC got it sorted out by changing the thread pitch on the attachment point.  No issues with them anymore.    We were going to just shit can our Mk11's and buy OBRs straight up.  Kevin Boland and Jack Leuba assisted us with getting a trade in value and converting (cheaper than buying new rifles and we got to keep the serial numbers for the lowers and cans).  We don't regret it.  

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"Home Is Where You Drop Your Ruck"- Cyclops


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