Tagged With "Armor express"

Topic

Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

georgiaditchdoc ·
I’ve been doing some research lately, and not finding any answers, about the use of personally purchased body armor vs department issued. I was asked a question about benefits and workers compensation in regards to this question. The officer that asked the question wanted to know if benefits or workers compensation could be denied or reduced to an officer/family if they choose to wear their personally purchased body armor. I know a number of people choose or have to buy their own rifle...
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

K.O.A.M. ·
From a purely legal standpoint, I would start by analyzing as to whether the personally owned armor would have somehow contributed to causing the injury or the severity of the injury. I would then see if the issued armor could be shown to have prevented the injury or reduced its severity. If one could show that the issued armor was somehow superior to the personally owned and would have prevented or reduced the severity of the injury, I think it would be a potential problem when it comes to...
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

gb88 ·
Our policy states we are authorized to wear department issued or our own equivalent armor.
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

steveg2 ·
First issue is whether the issue was due to armor failure. Or if the issued armor covers that part of the body. Say a Team Wendy helmet fails, ere you even issued a helmet?
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

georgiaditchdoc ·
Thanks for the answers thus far. Just to clarify in case I wasn't clear in the initial post. There has not been an incident that I am aware of or involved in with this inquiry. An officer who wanted to beef up his protection was referred to the HR person with the question. HR told him there would be no benefits, or a reduction in benefits, if he used his own armor regardless if the rating was higher or not. In this particular instance, officers are issued level II soft armor and level III or...
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

JW104 ·
It sounds like HR is guessing, or passing bad info. Remember all of the bullshit going around about how SGL I would not pay benefits if you didn't have a seatbelt on, or if you smoke, or other such nonsense? Have them cite a specific regulation, rule, law or policy that says that in writing, not just some HR person's interpretation. If they can produce that, ask for a copy. Then let them know you were going to run it by your civil attorneys and union to look at recourse for them not allowing...
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

JW104 ·
I forgot to add, don't forget to out the HR person as the one who started this whole mess.
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

exSquid ·
I would think that HR is the wrong source to answer this question. I would ask your legal department. The fact is that if you are denied benefits, you or your estate are going to end up addressing it in court, therefore I would think that legal would have a better understanding of the issue. x/S
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

jw917 ·
Sounds like the Legal unit, Training/Firearms unit, and Quartermaster/Supply unit need to get together to recommend a formal standpoint or policy. In my department, we are only issued level 2 soft armor (albeit nice, certified level 2 armor) except for specialized units such as SWAT. Our training unit is pretty good and has been advocating for guys to be prepared with plates, carriers, etc. So, although there is no formal policy, to my knowledge, the accepted, official standpoint is you are...
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

Erick ·
OhMyMuthaFuckingGawd, do we ever frikkin' need a Snopes for Command Staff. Forrest Whittaker eye? I now have two. Maybe, just maybe, if an agency has a mandatory wear policy covering a very specific make/model maybe they might be able to get away with this. When I read the OP, my very first thought was the SGLI / IBA drama from mid-2000s. That died out pretty quick. There were, however, justifiable concerns about troops ditching armor that would stop frag being replaced with Level II...
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Re: Personally Owned Body Armor vs Department Issue

georgiaditchdoc ·
Thanks to all for the ideas, the insight and the responses thus far. They are all greatly appreciated.
Topic

Best Lvl II SBA for new Carrier?

kykamo ·
Hey guys, Iv learned a lot about body armour reading these forums, but it has also lead to more confusion. I'm looking to get a new carrier and want the lightest and best rated lvl II sba to go with it. There's not much talk about some of these newer armors and was hoping to get some good clarification from your knowledge and experience with the companies. The armours in question: Armor Express Razor Safariland Hardwire Point Blank Alpha Elite I dont know exactly which carrier im going with...
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Re: Best Lvl II SBA for new Carrier?

SFF ·
Going on 4 yrs with my PB Alpha Elite L2 and like it a lot. Regarding "armor express". I think Doc said it best . . . "Why would any agency exercising due diligence or any sane person purchase a vest from Armor Express--the company apparently founded by some of the same venal corporate executives who lied about Zylon and who had no moral issues previously selling defective armor to LE and mil while at the old Second Chance???" https://www.lightfighter.net/t...vest-failure-lawsuit
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Re: Best Lvl II SBA for new Carrier?

Erick ·
Might I suggest getting the best soft armor package for your needs and then select a carrier from those available for that cut? Rather than the other way around. As for the options mentioned - am very familiar and comfortable with the PB offering, have seen & have a little info on Safariland's product. Armor Express? OhHellNo!
Topic

Side Armor for Crye JPC

MedicAJ ·
Anyone have experience running the Crye Long Side Armor Pouches for soft armor on the JPC? Does it have any effect on pouch placement on the outside of the cummerbund? Any pics would be helpful. Thanks! Andy
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Re: Side Armor for Crye JPC

PlasticMag ·
Yep, done it. No impact to pouches other than to make weaving them in tighter due to the cummerbund construction style. I ended up modifying some Eagle cummerbunds for myself and others for better soft armor integration.
Topic

Too much armor?

Skaster03 ·
Said no one ever. So, I've been saving for a personal set of armored plates for some time. With the added boost from last year's tax return, I've finally tipped over the point and I'm ready to buy. I've poured over the forums here, paying special attention here: http://www.lightfighter.net/to...-officers-start-here and here: http://www.lightfighter.net/to...and-testing-on-vests and especially here: http://www.lightfighter.net/to...ii-patrol-armor-test . Before we dive into gear, I should...
Topic

Looking for a MOLLE carrier suitable for uniform use

LawDogRD10 ·
I need a little help finding a MOLLE armor carrier suitable for uniform use. I'm a K9 handler now and have the leeway to wear one. The one I'm using has some shortcomings and I need to find one that fits my needs and looks decent. Here's what I'm using now. It's got some old panels crammed into it. My current Second Chance panels won't fit in it and it only holds large plates and not my 5x8 trauma plate. Looks like shit with my collar either smashed under it or it sticks way out. L-R is an...
Topic

Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

SFF ·
Disclaimer, I use and advocate modern ceramic plates. Looking for materials, references, photos, etc. regarding injuries to users of steel plate armor from spall, projectiles that impacted at less than right angles and deflected into the user, etc. Already searched here and elsewhere and not seeing much, but I think that such things often may not make into the public domain due to HIPPA, etc. Much appreciated.
Topic

Footwear Armor

Dr. Steven King ·
Aloha, One of the main area's of trauma for puncture and blast wounds is the feet and lower legs and pelvic area. If you know of any existing armored boot or orthotic systems that can help protect these high risk...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

vectorsc ·
There are videos of the ar500 spall guard being shot and the results dont seem that tragic. Their buildup coating is paxcon, which was related to Line-X . If you have been in an MRAP you have seen this same shit. i usually buy ceramic anyway. More comfort in the modern skinny ass plate carriers. https://youtu.be/ZxkJM1elAyc
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

LobsterClaw207 ·
This is a timely topic as some of us at work were discussing the same thing. My (also unscientific opinion) having seen steel targets shot, is that the projectile stands a large(r?) chance of richocheting upward into the bottom of my face/neck, or downward into my legs and penis. None of which I want.
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

SFF ·
My problem with the anti-spall/frag coatings is that while they may work OK when it's only 1 or 2 shots, but when the bullets come at you in MULTIPLES, they probably don't work so well. Count yourself lucky if it's only 1 or 2 shots. I don't count on luck . . . . Case in point - watch the video of the Dallas officer who was murdered when using the pillar for cover and was flanked . . .
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

vectorsc ·
I took an m193 in the plate in back once. Right over the kidney, from about 50 yds. I deleted half of this post because the rest of it could have been lawyered into some bullshit about violating a post lawsuit NDA. I don't think I'm going to take many rounds on the plate if I do get nailed. I would think most of them would be non-center of mass hits and a lucky one or few in the plate protected area. The backface deformation on my early ceramic plate was intense and frankly I think it was on...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

JF ·
Sorry no data, but unless there's something to reliably capture the fragments/projectile then they are going to strike something in a 360 degree area around the impact. I like this video to show new instructors about the safety considerations when setting up a steel range sessions. https://www.youtubedotcom/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

Sinister ·
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_jacket http://history.amedd.army.mil/...blstcs/chapter11.htm https://books.google.com/books...20wounds&f=false http://history.amedd.army.mil/...cs/wwii/woundblstcs/ http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/688122.pdf http://ww2f.com/threads/questi...ng-body-armor.15223/ https://books.google.com/books...20wounds&f=false
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

SFF ·
Relating to this, if you look at videos in which bad guys engage officers, they rapid fire (Dallas being only 1 such incident) and all those rounds, should they hit steel, create a lot of spall. Further, in reality, angles of fire are not 90 degrees, so after those bullets hit steel, they are likely to leave as a more or less intact projectile, with significant wounding/fatality potential.
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

Trajan Aurelius ·
This has been a known issue since the intersection of armor and bullets, only the degree has changed. The IJN Battleship Musashi had a spall liner inside each of its 18.1 inch three gun turrets and I am sure this was a wide spread practice in the Imperial Japanese Navy. The liner was made of 9 mm think silk to absorb spall. In the Vietnam War, helicopter crew were issued ceramic "chicken plates" with a ballistic nylon cover to capture spall from the shattered ceramic plates. There are a...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

shoobe01 ·
Cool video. But let's be clear, the fragments that come off a plate even without ricochet are moderately unpleasant. They eat away at concrete and metal over time. Softer materials (fabrics, chipboard) handle them better I guess because they are fast but very lightweight, but I wouldn't want my head in the way. I have heard many, many anecdotal stories, and over the years seen a handful of autoposy diagrams and AAR photos of serious ricochets from steel rifle and trauma plates. But I cannot...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

shoobe01 ·
Question (not challenge): I thought spall liners were to stop spall. Spall being the armor itself turning into secondary projectiles from deformation or penetration by a projectile, explosive force, or other mechanical effect. And I thought I had seen in detail (somewere, probably a book I cannot search with google!) that spall protective materials may or may not be useful to protect against ricochet, as they are designed/selected to protect against fragments forming in contact with the...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

Trajan Aurelius ·
Shoobe, I see the spall problem and the ricochet problem as very similar; the ricochet is the primary projectile; spall is a secondary projectile. Spall liners, inside turrets of any size, capture spall. Ricochets and spall from steel body armor plates can both be contained by a ballistic covering. Both are moving fast enough to cause injury. This is how chicken plates work(ed). Bullets would penetrate the carrier and ballistic covering, slowing it a bit, and hit the ceramic plate beneath...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

TheTick ·
SFF- Are you trying to convince someone to not get them? If so, how about videos of XM193 hitting steel plates? There's a lot and I've found them most effective in getting people to reconsider Couple spalling with the fact that XM193 cruises straight through and it's a no-go.
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

SFF ·
Many of the AR500 company's plates they can cover with a rubber-like substance to catch spall (frag) from the bullet striking the plate. This adds thickness (about 1/4") and weight. But how well does it protect the user from spall/frag?
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

SFF ·
Yes. Going to show vids and maybe also put some cardboard around some (rifle grade) steel targets that we have to show what happens.
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

Linz ·
Or you wear armour to defeat the spall from the plate: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL23774/
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

MWL ·
There is a company up here that sells AR500 armour made with some sort of special process and then covered with a coating that is supposed to catch all the spall from multiple rounds. They are S&J Hardware. Regards. Mark
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

lowlight ·
Most of the ar500 coatings are just spray on bedliner.
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

MAC19D ·
FWIW, last summer one of the students in a class I was teaching had some new steel plate armor. He wanted to shoot them and "see what happens".... ok, it was his idea. I know I have accidentally left a can of paint sitting in front of steel targets, and already know what inevitably happens. Highly unscientific testing followed. There was some kind of a coating on the steel, almost looked like the stuff used as bed liner in the back of my truck. Shot it with some Black Hills 77 grain OTM ammo...
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

shoobe01 ·
While I have seen some legit rubbery coating with fibers under that look like spall coating inside armored vehicles, most plate coatings I see are like this. Often even come from the factory with corners chipped off. Unless I missed something about the material properties, spall shields seem like they should not be brittle.
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Re: Injuries associated to steel plate armor?

M. Wilson ·
Put a watermelon (or balloons) above the plate on a stick/support to act as an unscientific analog for their melon and then shoot the plate. Then point out how soft and squishy the underside of ____________'s jaw/neck is and wait for the light bulb to flicker to life. You can also use poster board cut into a 4" wide strip however long and duct tape to build a "frame" (like a cake pan) perpendicular around the edge of the plate to act as a witness card to show that the bullet frags don't just...
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Re: Footwear Armor

Wild_Willie ·
Spider Boots - https://www.med-eng.com/Produc...rotectionSystem.aspx I have actually played around with these a fair bit. A person can RUN in these!
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Re: Footwear Armor

Grayman ·
I'm kind of surprised no one makes a boot with a frag rated insole..... A set of Gaiters with even minor ballistic protection could help with frag/shrapnel injury. Maybe youve got yourself a million $ idea here..
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Re: Footwear Armor

standeasy ·
http://www.aigis.co.uk/anti-mine-boots http://www.securityprousa.com/newblprbomib.html http://www.centurion-usa.com/C...ive_Combat_boot.html http://www.blastboxers.com/
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Re: Footwear Armor

roso ·
Bfrboots.com have been around for a while, and their products seem focused on this issue. No first hand impression beyond seeing these at some booth a while back.
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Re: Footwear Armor

Dr. Steven King ·
Originally Posted by roso: Bfrboots.com have been around for a while, and their products seem focused on this issue. No first hand impression beyond seeing these at some booth a while back. https://www.bfrboots.com/english/html/bfr_boots.html
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Re: Too much armor?

XTCBX ·
Cough, Strandhögg cough cough Strandhögg... https://www.lightfighter.net/to...-strandho-gg-finally
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Re: Too much armor?

Lightfighter ·
Of the choices you posted, the best bet is the Blue Force Gear Plateminus. The large will fit your 10x12 plates, though you will have a little bit of extra 'height' in the plate pocket. A choice you did not list, from a quality and price standpoint is the ATS Aegis plate carrier. And they make it sized specifically to fit 10x12 plates. https://nelsonuniform.com/coll...r?variant=1178660061
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Re: Too much armor?

Jason M ·
The Shellback Banshee fits my AMI TAC3S like it was made for them.
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Re: Too much armor?

SPDSNYPR ·
I'll say it. Too much armor. That shit gets heavy when you wear it too long. Too much shit on armor too. Your back will be ruined in no time. I have the Banshee PC, and have used it for years. I like it. Goes over a slick carrier great too if you want soft armor. If not, inside a stand-alone set of plates fits fine (I'm pretty sure mine has the 10x12s, but it's at work). The older I get, the less shit I "need". 1 rifle mag, 1 pistol mag, a radio, a TQ, and a really bad attitude are it. The...
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Re: Too much armor?

Dev L ·
You buy armor to fit you, then a carrier to fit the armor. What size are you? I am also a Detective in Texas, with similar needs etc. I had to look and make sure your post was not an old post I forgot I wrote or by one of my friends at another department, lol. What part of Texas do you live in and what type of vehicle will your armor be stored in? West Texas can get super hot or cold but it is dry and North Texas will be far less humid and hot than the coast. Some carriers are considerably...
 
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