I have been reading up on all the mods that 3 gunners do on their shotguns and I wondered what, if any, have application to a SD/combat shotgun.  Obviously, I  am not going to put a huge mag tube on it, but I wondered what the forum thought of back boring and lengthening the forcing cone.  It seems to me these would have application on the SC/Combat shotgun, but I didn't know if they cause malfunction problems in semi-autos.  I primarily shoot a M1S90, although I have some pumps and overunders.  

I also like the idea of the bigger safety and bolt release. But what about opening the loading port?   Seems like it might be problematic if I'm rolling around in the dirt. 

Thoughts?

Cole

cead mile failte

Original Post

Opening the loading port is a great mod (especially if you are going to load twins or quads), if you’re just going to stuff them in one at a time from the bottom I don’t know how much utility it would be. I don’t think it would have any effect on reliability during hard use.

If I was going to do up a full SD / work SG I’d open the port a bit, put on a reasonable length tube, make sure the bolt & safety were easy to manipulate, toss on a light & sling and go. (& It’d probably all be on a 1301T). 

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

Back boring and lengthening the forcing cone (in my opinion ) is no longer necessary if you are running Flight Control.  The patterns are outstanding (maybe too tight depending on your situation).

If your M1S90 has a forked lifter I would absolutely suggest a welded one, makes loading much easier and you won't pinch yourself anymore.

Extended tubes that don't extend past the muzzle are a good idea as they offer more capacity without any additional length.

Bigger safety and bolt release buttons are both good mods with no impact on reliability.

I probably wouldn't open up the loading port if it was just a HD gun as I'm guessing you won't be loading two/four at a time off your belt in that situation.

I agree with the above about adding a light and sling and would also add either fiber optic sight or red dot of some sort depending on your budget/needs.

Totally forgot about welding up the lifter...yes, do that. I believe Carbon Arms makes a part that attaches to your lifter with industrial adhesive that is cheap and basically does the same thing as welding it up if you want to give it a try without committing. 

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

Depends on the gun and a balance of needs.  I love the M1S90.  Having run and supported the gun for decades in LE SWAT service and my personal guns, I found leaving them alone is the best bet.  They will do everything you need for a HD/SD role without anything.  You won’t be 3 gun fast, but you will Be assessment speed fast for any real need.  I find they are not worth spending the money on.

On a newer platform, I bought a M2 3 gun model with all the mods done from Benelli.  I added a Nordic mag tube extension, sling/light mount, and a Aimpoint S1.  It is a very capable package and if there is any issues, it is still a full factory gun and not a gunsmith freakshow.  

The reality of 12 ga. use for actual practical HD/SD/LE use is you don’t need a lot, especially with some of the newer Semi Auto guns and premium packaged “tactical” pump guns.  3 gun is the NASCAR of our world.  Look at it in the same light.  Would a full boat off the track NASCAR be good for daily street use?  Fun yes, practical not really.  Are some great emerging technologies learned from those cars that filter down to your factory daily driver...absolutely.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

@CREYNOLDS

Enlarging of the loading port can range from mild to wild, and anything in between:

It might not be the best idea to have an extreme loading port mod. done on a duty gun, but a mildly enlarged and polished port would provide benefit without gear snagging the lifter or increased foreign debris entrance.  If you don't feel comfortable doing the work yourself then you could give MOA Precision LLC or Benny Hill (Triangle Shooting Sports) consideration, both offer less  "extreme" loading port modifications.


The TTI "AccuGuide" extended lifter or having your existing lifter welded and blended is also a great mod that will further enhance your shotguns handling.

1st Pic above;Welded & Blended                            -          2nd Pic above; TTI "AccuGuide"


The addition of a Matchsaverz or two (one on each side) is a easy addition that gives you a lot of bang for very little buck ($20-$26 part).



Fiber optic front sight, enlarged safety, enlarged bolt release, and enlarged charging handles are also good modifications. 

Anything that will enhance your ability to manipulate your weapon better allowing you to load/reload quicker, clear malfunctions quicker, and get on target quicker is just as applicable to combat or duty use as it is to competition provided you're not sacrificing reliability.



Semi-Relevant older thread:

https://www.lightfighter.net/to...li-options-for-3-gun

The Matchsaver type holder is one modification a couple of my guns are getting.  Mainly to get the empty gun reload done easier because I run a Aimpoint on several of my guns The interferes with going over the top.  

The key to the competition stuff is to match the components and mods to your actual needs and not the needs of someone trying to win a game that is very technology driven.  Much of what is on our cars today came out of the racing world.  Again, this is the same.  Some of this stuff can become very viable.  With that said, being street tested is critical to figure out what is really a positive rather than what we think may be a positive and then an unseen negative shows up.  Biggest point, we should be taking forward steps, but they need to be small steps for street stuff.  Also, return for investment.  A huge dollar investment for things to shave small increments of time may be worth it for a sport shooting gun that could be much better spent on a protection gun. 

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

I have an M1S90.  I fantasize about setting it up for 3 gun, but the reality is, if I do that, I'm doing it for fun, not to win.  And frankly, I think for my purposes, shooting the match with a defense oriented gun, in a tactically sound, not game driven manner, is the way I'll go.  The Taran carrier is useful because it eliminates the widely discussed issue of getting your thumb caught by that U notch when loading the magazine.  Some relief of the loading port also makes sense, but I won't go so far as the tubes and attachments.  I'll play around with some of the game loading techniques, probably two rounds at a time, not the four.  That's more my speed, but if I don't have a secure way of carrying stacked shells so I can grab them two at a time, I'll probably just work on old school, one round at a time.

The Matchsaver is a good idea for the Benelli.  If the bolt has locked open, it needs to be closed to start getting more rounds in the magazine.  I've been searching out a lot of videos and there is definite utility in being able to very quickly pull a shell back and drop it in the ejection port, hit the bolt release and then either shoot or load up the magazine.  I have an enlarged Taran safety and I'm planning on buying one of the Redneck tabs to "enlarge" the bolt release.  For those not familiar with that, it is an inexpensive piece of sheet steel.  One end fits under the rear edge of the handguard, it makes an S-bend up over the receiver and the other leg extends over the bolt release button.  From what I've seen, it appears to work well.  Just not as pretty as drilling and tapping the bolt release button and then installing an oversized button on top.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Thanks everyone for the feed back.  Although I have not shot 3 gun in a while, when I did it was with a stock M1S90, stock SIG226 and an iron sighted Colt 6920 (yes, it has been a while).  I used cover when reloading and didn't care about my scores.   My feeling was the same as many above.  It was training.  If I run 3 gun again, I will keep the same philosophy.  But I think I will mod out one of my Benelli's a little at a time.

 

cead mile failte

Focusing on improving individual skills & attributes to be successful and competitive in competition is how to properly gain benefit.  You need to look at the matches as performance based training, if you're going to purposefully handicap yourself and not take the competition seriously then you are getting ZERO out if it.

Might as well just stick to square range theatrics and ego stroking "gunfighter" fantasies if your goal is to maintain mediocrity rather than actually get better.

First, I never said anything about not taking it seriously.  Not sure where you got that from. Poor assumption on your part.   I'm a pretty competitive guy.    I'm not sure why you are insulting me either.   Dont consider myself a gun fighter and dont fanatsize about being in a gun fight.  I hope I'm never in one.  You've never met me and have no idea how I train.  I do the best I can and train as much as I can.  

Perhaps I should clarify and give some examples of my 3 gun experiences.  1st, most comps I ran at people did not use cover.  They ran around blind corners.  All they cared about was their time.  

I used cover, went slowly around corners, barriers etc. Did I load my SG as fast as I could? Of course.  Did i shoot as fast as I could?  Sure.  Did I work on my fundamentals while trying to get faster? Absolutely.  But I was not going to train myself to run blindly into oncoming fire.  If that is ego stroking, then I'm guilty.  

cead mile failte

Moderator hat on: deep breaths.  This is hardly a thread that should degenerate.  

Some folks use sport shooting as a means to shoot someone else’s set up so they aren’t stuck doing their normal square range stuff.  Often a good place to test gear.  Because you aren’t “playing the game” doesn’t mean you are lame.

on the other side.....if you can rap your head around the game part, pushing yourself past comfortable in a competitive atmosphere is a solid way to build technical performance skill.

Room for everyone in this.  There is the guy who shows up with their stock bargain basement Mossberg 500 and totally sucks and whines about “I am running my real gear and reality this and that”....it’s wrong.  Just as much as the total gamer who claims they are ready to dominate a street fight because they know how to play a shooting game well.  Wrong as well.  Outside of the extremes, middle ground is solid.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

CReynolds posted:

First, I never said anything about not taking it seriously.  Not sure where you got that from. 

Ahem...

CReynolds posted:

I used cover when reloading and didn't care about my scores.

 

CReynolds posted:

I'm not sure why you are insulting me either.

Insulting you!? 
No, not at all man, I was just speaking plainly to you and giving the explanation you asked for.

If you feel or felt insulted/offended, I can assure you that it was entirely unintentional.

CReynolds posted:

I used cover, went slowly around corners, barriers etc. Did I load my SG as fast as I could? Of course.  Did i shoot as fast as I could?  Sure.  Did I work on my fundamentals while trying to get faster? Absolutely.  But I was not going to train myself to run blindly into oncoming fire.  If that is ego stroking, then I'm guilty.  

By moving like a snail and pretending that the stage is a tactical training scenario you show that you don't actually take competition or training very seriously.  You appear to be hung up on misinformation or a misunderstanding of the the over used axiom "train like you fight".  Most of tactimmy's that bring range theatrics into competitions are permanently stuck in a state of mediocrity while conning themselves into thinking that their horrible performance in competition is irrelevant because being good in competitions will get them "killed on the streets"  

Perhaps you are not another tactical-timmy type.  But your posts above give a strong impression to suggest otherwise.  Competition isn't a tactically flawed game that builds dangerous training scars, no matter how many people claim otherwise it'll never be true. 

Dagga Boy posted:

Some folks use sport shooting as a means to shoot someone else’s set up so they aren’t stuck doing their normal square range stuff.  Often a good place to test gear.  Because you aren’t “playing the game” doesn’t mean you are lame.

Nothing wrong with folks that just want to do it for shits & giggles or playing around with new gear.  While not lame, it is unfortunate though when someone shows up to a competition event and clearly gets nothing tangible out it.  If they have no drive to restructure their training and improve performance they are basically just wasting time & money.

Dagga Boy posted:
on the other side.....if you can rap your head around the game part, pushing yourself past comfortable in a competitive atmosphere is a solid way to build technical performance skill.


Room for everyone in this.  There is the guy who shows up with their stock bargain basement Mossberg 500 and totally sucks and whines about “I am running my real gear and reality this and that”....it’s wrong.  Just as much as the total gamer who claims they are ready to dominate a street fight because they know how to play a shooting game well.  Wrong as well.  Outside of the extremes, middle ground is solid.  

Yes, 3-Gun/USPSA competitions are just games.

But they are games where you are shooting your firearm(s) at targets, under time, where you need to combine both speed & accuracy to score well and have a chance at being competitive.  You must discern and discriminate between “shoot” and “no-shoots” targets. You've got to move quickly from position to position working with and/or around barriers and obstacles. You'll will often need to fire from awkward positions and/or while off-balance.  You will need to learn and make use of a variety of skills while find solutions to ambiguous situations within your skill level, such as; shot calling, quick reloads, rapid target transitions, fast split times, quick malfunctions clearance, etc., etc..
All of this occurs while you're competing against peers in your division, in your class, and in your category... this all directly translates to physical and mental performance (good or bad) while under pressure.  Learning how to compartmentalize and control yourself under competition induced stress leads to better mental management and physical performance.  Shooting to win in competitions, and training to win in competitions will make you better shooter, and make your survival odds in a gunfight better... not worse.

Sorry Mustache 6, I most disagree with you more than I agree. 

Competition is good.  It provides stress and assists in learning to cope and perform.  However, you fight the way you train.  Most shooting competitions today, because time is the critical factor, eliminate defensive, "tactical" shooting.  First, the course of fire is known and then gamed out for reloads and target shooting order to reduce your overall time.  Yes, there are shooting boxes at barricades, but shooters don't shoot with the absolute minimum of exposed body, instead they lean as far as possible and necessary to engage multiple targets as quickly as possible, not engaging the first visible target while remaining behind cover from the others.  Shotguns get barrels and magazine extensions leaving them longer than a Mosin Nagant 1891 with fixed bayonet.  The mods, adaptations and ammo carriage for reloads are used only in the match environment.  I could go on for half a page on the handguns and rifles as well. 

I freely admit that there are game generated solutions that have gone mainstream in the shooting world, including defensive use.  The RMR on handguns is an example.  45 deg offset backup sights on an AR are another.  And yes, there are divisions where you can use actual practical guns, holsters and other gear.  But if you run the match with a game mentality in regards to how you shoot the stages, you may win the competition, but you aren't doing yourselves any favors when the targets shoot back.  If you've got friends with a similar mindset, you can compare your scores to them for competition value, but you will never place against those who put time as the prime consideration.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Has there ever been a documented instance of someone doing something they learned/got in the habit of in competition that got them injured or killed in a real gun fight?

From: https://firearmusernetwork.com.../02/context-matters/

People competing in NASCAR have no trouble driving on regular roads or making right turns. People working with tigers in zoos have no trouble interacting with house cats. Surgeons have no troubles cutting their food at the dinner table. Practical shooting competitors have no trouble figuring out that they shouldn’t stand in doorways when someone is shooting back at them.

Those concerned would be served well by understanding how habits are actually formed. Habits are context-dependent, meaning different habits are readily formed for different contexts. Studying a bit about learning theory will explain this. On the other hand, I suspect such study isn’t going to really be something many are interested in, considering the castigations against outstanding competitive shooters for not doing something completely irrelevant to what their goals are at the time.

Indeed, under pressure you rely on the habits you have practiced and trained. Good thing we can contextualize those things, otherwise the fact that you normally walk through a doorway with no cover would always take over and you’d get killed. Consider the vast majority of doorways you have gone through in your life where you simply opened the door and walked through. If you want to argue that isn’t.

 

I have on anecdotal example of reversion to what was practiced rather than what was desired causing a problem.  No deaths.  I shot Glocks for years.  Got a yen to shoot my Browning HP again.  First stage of a match, drew, sights on target, no shot.  I forgot to take off the safety.  Call it just me if you'd like, but the instructors that I've trusted have all said that under stress, you revert to what you have practiced.  And if your primary practice is game tactics, I think you've got a potential problem.  The fact is, unless you are LE or you frequent the high target availability part of town and activities, you will probably never get in a gunfight.  So you'll never have an opportunity to test game experience vs. reality.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

3 gun shotgun now, is like open class pistol of the 2000s. No actual application to real world use. Guys are gluing shells together, running tube magazines that protrude one foot in front of the muzzle, etc.

Depending on your platform, an extended safety can be great. I think that side saddles are a good idea, especially the velcro ones, since it makes it easy to select the ammo you are running around with. If you are going to do a lot of loading, a welded tab/lift/carrier can be a good idea, but there are a lot that come out of the box with that taken care of now. Probably the number one thing to understand with shotguns is that we're learning that ALL buckshot loads are poor performers, and slugs are where it is at for terminal performance. The buckshot just doesn't result in blood loss like you would expect, given the number of pellets. Slugs put big holes in things.

 

Perhaps you are not another tactical-timmy type.  But your posts above give a strong impression to suggest otherwise.  Competition isn't a tactically flawed game that builds dangerous training scars, no matter how many people claim otherwise it'll never be true. 

There was a time where a good portion of my life was devoted to competition shooting - 3 gun, USPSA, IDPA, etc. I would vehemently disagree with your last point. Competition breeds horrendous tactics and habits. It is just offset by increased speed and capability, so we assume we are on the right track. Sport holsters? Huge extended mag releases? Stages in which you already know the target layout? Only shooting a target two times? Fault lines? Emphasis on racing the clock?

The value in competition is in forcing you to learn to solve problems with a gun in your hand, to work to gain a competitive advantage through mastery of fine motor skills, and in developing a greater capacity for accuracy and speed. The rest of it - the jerseys, the cleats, the guns that hover on the ragged edge of reliability, the pantomimes, the emphasis on rushing from target to target, the 30 round courses of fire...

Most competition shooting has as much to do with self defense as golf. And like golf, it is fun, expensive, and a great way to spend a Sunday.

Competition shooting is a game. It involves marksmanship at speed, economy of motion, looking at a situation and coming up with a plan for it then executing your plan.

Competition shooting has nothing to do with tactics (although I believe all the things I listed could probably come in handy in a “tactical” type situation).

My 3 gun gear is very close to my duty gear with exception to my shotgun (I don’t carry one at work and the one I use at matches looks very much like the 21” 1301 DOCGKR has posted but without a red dot & depending on the match / division I add on a longer tube).

What does all this mean? Nothing really. But any trigger time is a good thing in my book...

 

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

Come on, the stroking my ego comment surely was intended to be insulting.  

And me not caring about my scores does not equate to not taking it seriously.  The difference is you think "it" is winning the comp, I think "it" is getting out and running my SG, reloading on the fly under some (simulated) stress, using cover,  and trying to shoot well while running the course.   You have a different goal than me.  I could care less about winning a 3gun comp, IDPA, or any other comp.  I don't do them enough and am too busy with family, sports, kids, and my business.   If that is not taking it seriously, so be it.

cead mile failte

Here is my $.02.  If the only training you do is competitions, than you are wrong.   If on the other hand, competition is an adjunct to more "realistic" training than it can be quite beneficial.  How many guys do you know that workout wearing kit?  Are you saying that lifting weights and running in shorts and sneakers is detrimental to your rucking with boots and utilities?  Of course not, it may not benefit it directly but tangentially it does.  I spent a week shooting pistol with Jerry Barnhart who we all know was a great competitive shooter with zero real world experience.  Many times throughout the week, Jerry reminded us that he was not teaching tactics because he didn't have the background to do so.  What he was teaching was the little competition tricks that could give us an advantage in either speed, accuracy, or follow up.  At the end of the week, I had refined my already decent pistol shooting just a little bit more.  As with most things in life, training needs to be approached holistically.

x/S

¿Si no nosotros, que quien?

Running with a ruck vs. without.  Unless HOW you have to run is different, running without one does not create a bad habit.  It is simply less resistance and may give you a false estimate of your capabilities.  In the last shotgun class I took, we were taught to keep the shotgun pointed in the general direction of the target and load with the support hand.  The idea being that you were faster to shoot if needed.  One of the competition loading techniques is to flip the shotgun belly side up, stock on top of your shooting shoulder and use your shooting hand to quickly shove shells in the magazine.  Where possible, by grabbing 2 in your hand at the same time, maybe even 4.  I've watched it being done and the shooter can, if necessary, flip it back around and start shooting as fast as the guy using his weak hand to load, and spend less time getting from empty mag to loaded mag.  That is an example where I think the competition field has something to teach the practical field.   I already mentioned bad tactics from a surviving standpoint. 

This is not a situation where all comp gear and "tactics" are good, or bad.  You need to make some educated and thoughtful analysis to decide what is good and useful, and what is just fast and impractical for the real world if you want to go home afterwards. 

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Hey Mark, want to know where I learned belly up loading...? LAPD D Platoon in 1989.  The gun was under the armpit, but this ain’t new.  It was contextual, and that is the key.  Larry Mudgett was death on taking a muzzle off downed bad guys.....however, middle of a fight and needing Ammo....be efficient.  The efficiency end is where we can learn a ton from the sport guys.  When to use these techniques on the combative side is what we learn from gun fighters.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Dorsai posted:

 One of the competition loading techniques is to flip the shotgun belly side up, stock on top of your shooting shoulder and use your shooting hand to quickly shove shells in the magazine.  Where possible, by grabbing 2 in your hand at the same time, maybe even 4.  I've watched it being done and the shooter can, if necessary, flip it back around and start shooting as fast as the guy using his weak hand to load, and spend less time getting from empty mag to loaded mag.  That is an example where I think the competition field has something to teach the practical field.   I already mentioned bad tactics from a surviving standpoint. 

I saw this technique a couple years ago from a fellow officer who also does competition.  He was lightning fast with his reloads, just doing 1 shell at a time.

It made me really think about shotgun reloads, and I started experimenting with it myself.  Lastly, I started teaching it to the younger, less experienced officers.  I've found that most really like it: it results in less rounds dropped on the ground, and it because it doesn't rely on small wrist muscles to hold up the shotgun, I find that it builds more confidence in said less experienced officer.

I think the key difference in this example is application.  At 15 yds, officers should either have cover to reload their shotgun/rifle, or transition to their pistol.  Competition techniques like this are valuable, but they need to be applied at the right time and under the right conditions.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Uncle Scotty was still teaching this down in LA.

“And I wouldn't be surprised if Uncle Scotty was still teaching this down in LA.”

Scotty is big on the “Metro Reload” off the side saddle based on lessons learned from the LA Riots.  Keep in mind when I learned the belly up, it was before side saddles existed.  It was efficient if the belt or butt cuffs that was the norm.  Think of current 3 gun and where the ammo is coming from.  Again, not much new, but we are building better wheels and tires rather than actually reinventing the wheel.  

What I like about working the belly up is the muzzle position  that is good for reloading during a fight where I may be stuffing myself into cover or in a group of other team members.  Again, topping up while covering a downed confirmed crook...gun up and off the saddle is the way to go.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Competition shooting is all about efficiency. Efficiency in a gunfight? Seems like a good thing, no? Transitioning from an empty long gun to a sidearm is a tactical decision, how to top off a shotgun while covering a BG is a tactical decision, how to reload a completely empty gun or top off a partially depleted gun with no immediate threat is a matter of efficiency. Tons of modern gunfighter techniques were born from and / or vetted in the competition world. It’s all about efficiency and economy of motion. 

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

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