One of our LE Department clients is looking for recommendations for .308 ammunition for use by their snipers.

They currently use the Sierra 168 gr Matchking for open air and Federal 165 gr Bonded SP for barrier/glass.

If anyone can assist with recommendations, you can either post here, or PM me.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

Original Post

Fuck no on the SMK.  That’s an almost guaranteed “through and through”.

Our guys are currently shooting 155 grain Hornady ELD or ELD-X (I forget which) out of their Ruger RPRs.  This includes for use through glass/barriers which helps with not having different rounds with different POI.

My now retired rifle always stacked 168 BH AMAX on top of each other when I was still in snipers.  We also fired the Fed 165 bonded-SP for barriers at the time.

I have come to love the AMAX/ELD family of projectile.  They’re not as accurate as the SMK over very long distance (relative to stateside LE engagements), but knock the snot out of what they hit.  You just have to play with the grains to see which one groups best out of your guns. 

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What is left when honor is lost?

I agree 100% on the SMK. When they asked me to supply them with ammunition, and I asked what they wanted, that's when I told them I would get some better recommendations.

The other reason was to get them a round that could be used for both if possible, as sometimes an open air shot becomes a barrier shot faster than you can change out the ammunition in your gun, and also to avoid having ammunition with different POI.

I have supplied Federal Fusion to at least one other department previously, and currently supply Winchester RA556B to a number of departments for their ERT and patrol carbines.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

Okay... I stand somewhat corrected.

They’re shooting 155 ELD for everything up to a hostage job in an auto.

For a barricade in an auto on up, they still have the 165 Bonded SP.  Dude said the ELD disintegrated through bank and locomotive glass. 

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What is left when honor is lost?

EDIT- to be clearer:  they’ll fire 155 ELD into a passenger car in a hostage job due to over-penetration concerns.  I it’s a barricade in a passenger car all the way up to barriers like bank or locomotive glass, they’ll switch to the 165 SP. 

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What is left when honor is lost?

I continue to be amazed that LE will pay consultants to provide information that is available FREE from the FBI.  All it takes is a letterhead request, signed by a Sgt., or higher.

Of course, what the FBI will not provide is a recommendation.   The information provided is data.  It is left up to the agency to determine what fits their mission.

For the record, I'm assuming that from the term "client" means the LE agency is paying for the consultation.  Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Buford Boone posted:

I continue to be amazed that LE will pay consultants to provide information that is available FREE from the FBI.  All it takes is a letterhead request, signed by a Sgt., or higher.

Of course, what the FBI will not provide is a recommendation.   The information provided is data.  It is left up to the agency to determine what fits their mission.

For the record, I'm assuming that from the term "client" means the LE agency is paying for the consultation.  Apologies if I'm mistaken.

They aren't paying us for the information, I do stuff like that for free for the LE departments up here.

They are clients, because we also source stuff for them and provide services such as inspecting and servicing their firearms (which they do pay for). Up here, being Canada, so will the FBI still provide the information to LE outside of the US, and if so, who do they contact?

Any information I can pass onto them would be appreciated.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

This is a small sample size, but our sniper element uses the Black Hills ELD-M 168gr for everything up to and including light glass. Past that, it’s Fed 168gr Bonded Tip (LE308TT2). The zero change between the two is minimal. The ELD-M isn’t quite as accurate as the match kings in our rifles, but in gel and through light glass, it’s performs much better. Black hills will send you the bare gel info on request. The matchking almost always sheds its jacket through glass, and you have two impacts on paper. The ELD-M in our testing did this much less, even though it isn’t a bonded core. It’s not perfect, but it’s better.

The FBI hasn’t done the ELD-M yet, but has done the similar AMAX (slightly different tip, very similar terminal performance. BTW - the ELD-M isn’t like swapping to a 6.5 creed at the ranges we shoot (vast majority under 100, but we shoot regularly out to 500 since we have the range that goes that far). BH is a little less expensive than the Hornady with the same bullet last I checked (last year at the beginning of the fiscal year). 

 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

TheTick is spot on with his advice. SMK (used in the long-venerated Federal Gold Medal Match) is a proven overpenetrator. It was designed for target shooting (which it excels at), not for terminal performance. The American Sniper Association is a vocal opponent of this round for LE use, and has a good deal of data on this which they could provide you.

We run the Hornady 168 AMAX TAP (now ELD) for open air, complemented by the Black Hills 180 grain Nosler Accubond for barrier work. In my experience, we have seen little to no POA/POI shift between the two rounds at distances under 200 yards, which is sufficient for our AO. The Black Hills has performed very well in training scenarios where we engaged through auto glass.  I have also heard good things about RUAG ammo for barrier work, but have no hands on experience with it. 

MWL posted:
Buford Boone posted:

I continue to be amazed that LE will pay consultants to provide information that is available FREE from the FBI.  All it takes is a letterhead request, signed by a Sgt., or higher.

Of course, what the FBI will not provide is a recommendation.   The information provided is data.  It is left up to the agency to determine what fits their mission.

For the record, I'm assuming that from the term "client" means the LE agency is paying for the consultation.  Apologies if I'm mistaken.

They aren't paying us for the information, I do stuff like that for free for the LE departments up here.

They are clients, because we also source stuff for them and provide services such as inspecting and servicing their firearms (which they do pay for). Up here, being Canada, so will the FBI still provide the information to LE outside of the US, and if so, who do they contact?

Any information I can pass onto them would be appreciated.

Regards.

Mark

Well, good on ya, MWL.

The procedure for a Canadian (or other outside U.S.) LE Agency lies with where the request is sent.

In the U.S., the request can go straight to the Ballistic Research Facility.  Outside the U.S., the request must go to the FBI LEGAT.  Basically, it is a letterhead request, signed by a Sgt., or higher which specifically mentions the information is requested for OFFICIAL USE ONLY and WILL NOT BE DISSEMINATED outside the requesting agency.

Provide that letter to the LEGAT and the LEGAT will obtain the CD and provide to the LE Agency.

Easy Day.

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