I've noticed that Lightfighter is sorely lacking in the 3rd Line department. There's been a lot of focus on the 1st and 2nd line, but it's not often somebody posts about their packs and what's inside. There's been a little bit of talk of patrol packs in Afghanistan, especially with the recent thread about Standard Afghan 72hr loads, but that's only one specific AO.

This was prompted not only by some recent thread, but a recent field exercise where I realised halfway through we'd all packed a horrendously large amount of shit for what was only really 24 hours in the field during good weather. Seeing as how a lot of my exercises are in the space of 24-72 hours, I've decided that I don't need a lot of the extra weight on my back. Wish I could start with my own stuff, but I'm just a junior infantry Reservist and I've still got a shit tonne to learn.

I'd really like to hear from others. What about CONUS, Europe and other temperate areas? We hear a lot about the Middle East - what about different AOs? Surely throwing down with a woobie isn't quite going to cut it in temperate US, or does it?

I know there are plenty of dudes here who carry rucksacks. What's in it and how are you using it in the field?

- Mac
Original Post
I'm in northern Europe, and I've found that what is commonly referred to as a 3-day pack (RAID, Eagle A-III etc) is way to small to pack what I need for 3 days, as the cold weather gear takes up so much space, not to mention that I often have to carry radios.

I'll get back to you on what we usually pack for our adventures even though I'm no longer in a unit that has to hump shit over LRRP-distances by foot, current unit travels by wheeled soft skin.

Oden! Guide our ships, Our axes, spears and swords. Guide us through storms that whip And in brutal war

Working on your 72-hour load is also a good way to exercise your bail-out // evacuation plan.

In light of the lessons learned from Katrina and the lessons that need to be re-learned after Sandy, one of the is "exercise your bail-out plan." If you have kids, you can call it 'camping'.

Something I am working on is a 24-hour, three-day and 10 day plan. In California, the most dangerous event would be a devastating earthquake, then wildfires, then wildings // riots. We have the occasional industrial accident but life-threatening events are very localized in impact as in the Burlingame Gas Leak & Explosion. A major consideration is that my wife has major, chronic medical conditions. Basically, we can't run. It changes the way you plan.

I know this isn't the original intent of McYogi's post, but it has merit for others besides serving Soldiers.

 

 

 

 

....

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

 

When violence is the local language, be fluent.

 

“Governments may think and say as they like, but force cannot be eliminated, and it is the only real and unanswerable power. We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.“   Lt. General Paul Carton de Wiart, British Army

 

HH6 actually just brought this up to me the other day right before the elections. "We need more camping/survival gear." So after my happy dance is over I ask her what she meant. She said that she and I are covered (we both have bug out bags, and several pre stocked Rubbermaid containers ready to throw into the SUV)..."but what about James"(my now 4 month old son) she says?

That tossed a giant wrench in my plans. I was almost shocked at myself for not having thought of the little dude, and already having supplies for him long before his arrival into the world. So now commences the search and long nights of research on a "baby 72hr kit". Were good on food as all he wants is boob ( who can blame him )
Will update with pics if this thread is still alive and kicking after my prep is done

"A river runs through it" is a load of shit!

So HDLS the theory of relativity applies

Mac, in the last 12 years of soldiering, I've cut my load by sticking with a Goretex bivvy bag, poncho liner, and a sleep shirt. It has taken me down to 30 deg farenheitin both training and combat conditions (where situations did not permit two-man shelters).

I could have added a lightweight tarp to deal with precipitation, as I imagine you must. This fit all temperate areas I 've been in.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Gentleman, I use that term loosely. Let us get this thread back on track here. I think Mcyogi is referring to Military type adventures.
In the 22 years (15 infantry) my rucksack was weened down to the following.
Winter packing list
64 pattern Ruck sack
Valise
Sleeping bag outer
Bivi bag
Poncho liner/woobie
poncho
Thermarest
Norge sweater
2 pairs of wool socks (CF issue ones rock)
36hrs of rations/poogie bait
Stove with fuel/canteen cup
Spare gloves x 2
Long under wear top
Thermos
I was told a rule if you are not wearing it when you go to sleep you brought to much. Old school skills such as using your parka as a under pad between you and your sleeping pad are being lost. Strings on for mitts etc. Or such sage words of advice when standing around you should have a slight chill, because if you have to run away you won't have time to take it off. If you cold move.

Summer packing list
64 Rucksack
Bivi bag
Poncho liner/woobie
3/4 length thermarest
Norge sweater (hey its Canada, I've been on EX in the summer and its snowed)
spare CBT pants
3x spare socks
Stove/Fuel/canteen cup
36 hrs ration/poogie bait
spare gloves
touque
2 litre water bottle
The remainder of your equipment is kept in your pockets, webbing etc.

I was taught the rule survive out of your pockets, fight out of your webbing and live out of your rucksack. The above list is assembled for a 48-72 hr EX. anything longer you need to revaluate your load out and support chain. IE change of clothes/rations/water.
R711 OUT

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

quote:
Originally posted by R711:
Gentleman, I use that term loosely. Let us get this thread back on track here. I think Mcyogi is referring to Military type adventures..
R711 OUT


I resemble that remark. And secondly after further review of origional post I agree. My mind lately is full of diapers, wipes, baby clothes and other things...clearly I need more bacon in life to steer me back on track. Will post my packing list after dealing with crying dude.

"A river runs through it" is a load of shit!

So HDLS the theory of relativity applies

I'm largely with SHAGGY on pack capacity and duration. The RAID is not a 3-day bag if you have to hoof your own chow and water for three days in addition to clothing and mission-essential equipment (as opposed to drawing it from a vehicle). H2O alone for 72 hrs can get you into ruck territory quick, depending on temp. It's modular and all, but it may be easier to use a 45 liter pack and work from there.

A generic 72 hrs load (carried in pack only) for me would look like:

Thermarest
Bivvy bag
Poncho liner
Tarp for shelter use
Line and stake pins (I have a Catoma one-man but it isn't versatile enough)
Two pairs socks
One t-shirt and PT shorts
One sleep shirt
Wet Wx top
Wpns cleaning gear with a small bottle CLP
1L Nalgene in a sidesaddle carrier
Nalgene cup
Alcohol stove and 6 oz fuel (having a hot brew and warm water to shave is my one field indulgence)
3 MRE rations (with a few extra energy bars tossed in, but I don't assume I'll have access to my body fuel of choice)
3L bladder with water
Hygiene kit
Quick dry towel
Boo boo components from my IFAK
100' paracord
Small fold of rigger's tape

This still leaves room for a mission-essential item like 100 rds of belted ammo, an APERS mine, biometric or surveillance device, BA5590 battery, 60mm mortar round, or C2 tool.

This loadout is totally configurable based on environment. For example, I might drop the tarp and staking gear if operating in an urban environment. I might drop the thermarest and look for a way to max out on ammo if the fighting is in an urban area as well, or shed a lot more if it's hot enough to need 4-5 liters a day and i need to cover all three days, so it's hard to develop a baseline that works for all seasons, and all reasons.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I'm going to work on this load list tonight, but first I would like som input.

We use a 4-layer system for defining loads:

1st line: Uniform, boots, gloves, head gear

2nd line: Webbing, body armor, helmet, weapon

3rd line: The official name is "Assault Pack", but it's actually a 35L 3-day pack design.

4th line: Ruck, a 125 Liter external frame pack

Kit carried up to and including 3rd line should last 24 hours, 4th line 72 hours.

I'm thinking that for regular infantry guys, the 125 liter pack is too much. The 35L pack is to small, however, if we are bringing along sleeping bags, and too big for an assault pack.

Any suggestions on ideal ruck size for regular infantry?

I'm thinking 60-80 liter range, and an assault pack in the 15-20 liter range, that can easily clip on to the ruck.

It's not about surviving, it's about winning.

I think the right bag, carried the right way, can be rigged to a 45L just fine.

The issue is getting the pack to integrate with armor. That's always the core issue, and why direct-to-armor small packs do so well.

A sleeping bag for your application in Norway, is a different concern, but a bag for a temperate climate would be easy on a 45L pack.

I think we need to be careful with trying to strap on the kitchen sink when talking about dismounted infantry ops, whether we're talking conventional high order fighting, or COIN work.
A bag doesn't need to be carried by each infantryman. At the most, 50% should carry one forward, while the remainder are moved by the company logistics element and brought forward only once the units transition to assembly area security or return to a rear area.

It's not going to be comfortable to try to sleep with only a bivvy bag, poncho liner, and sleep shirt at 32 degrees, but I don't think we should be stripped down to our underwear in the complete sleep system if we're in a dismounted fight with ANY enemy. It's for that reason that we need to keep the bulk of our comfort gear off our backs, and force some echelon to perform logistics and mobility operations like they should.

That's real lightfighter work...

ETA: I recommend Nick Vaux's Take That Hill for the most modern account of a dismounted slog over an extended period of time and distance although definitely not under temperate conditions.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Mac, what was the horrendous amount of unecessary kit that was packed? Are you talking six pairs of socks and undershirts, or equipment more appropriate to "camping" and not fighting?

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

No worries.

Agreed on all points. Ounces become pounds...pounds hurt.

As much as I like baselines, tailoring the load based on METT-TS&L is a thinking man's game.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Some interesting points here, but what really interests me is the 72 hr plus area. In my line of work, stepping off on a 72 hr op assumes that we have moved to, and secured, an operating base/location, from which we may need to mount ops for a period of 30 days with rations, water, ammo and radio batteries being the only resupply items ( we would conduct the initial theatre entry with 3 x days of these items).

Consequently, the large pack and its contents become the enablers to make this happen. Throw in the fact that 50% of the pack doesn't belong to you (it belongs to Higher for the carriage of mission-essential equipment), everything carried needs to be scrutinised for its combat/life support value.

As as been previously mentioned, analysing the METL should drive kit packing, but there are some core elements I always have in my large pack:

Tarp/poncho/hootchie - The ability to put up overhead shelter from the elements should not be underestimated. Ever tried giving an orders group in inclement weather in a bivvy bag? Same same for personal administration. Bivvy bags are good, but they have their limitations.

One set of combat uniform - Wet/dry drills all the way. Sleep in the dry kit, put the wet kit back on in the morning. You can keep going like this for weeks.

Thin merino wool undershirt ( warm layer for temperature drops/sleeping)

Rain jacket - self-explanatory.

Small wash/personal admin kit (wash/shave kit, spare boot laces, sewing kit, boo-boo kit).

Metal canteen cup.

3 litre Source hydration bladder.

6 litre Ortlieb water bladder.

Sleep system (either poncho liner or lightweight sleeping bag, depending on location/time of year).

3/4 length inflatable sleep mat.

With all the above, plus mission essential equipment as required, all I need is rations, water, bullets and batteries to conduct sustained operations.

All the above is predicated on operations in the South-West Pacific.
I suppose I need to get around to owning a 3/4 air mat eventually.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

quote:
Originally posted by McYogi:
quote:
Originally posted by jcustisredux:
I suppose I need to get around to owning a 3/4 air mat eventually.

Isn't it as simple as taking to it with a knife?

Might be a bit hard to inflate after that though... Wink

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joined February 7, 2006                  Location: West Coast

quote:
Originally posted by McYogi:
quote:
Originally posted by Awwbugman:
quote:
Originally posted by McYogi:
quote:
Originally posted by jcustisredux:
I suppose I need to get around to owning a 3/4 air mat eventually.

Isn't it as simple as taking to it with a knife?

Might be a bit hard to inflate after that though... Wink


Foam mats are the way to go. That shits modular with the right tools, and I thought that was all the rage these days Razz


Air mats are all kinds of FAIL for mil ops. They can/will get holes. Valve freezes up. The don't properly insulate you from conductive cooling. You can't easily trim/modify them.

Also, I suggest not rolling you matt but instead folding it like an accordian.
quote:
Originally posted by jcustisredux:
I think the right bag, carried the right way, can be rigged a a 45L just fine.

The issue is getting the pack to integrate with armor. That's always the core issue, and why direct-to-armor small packs do so well.

A sleeping bag for your application in Norway, is a different concern, but a bag for a temperate climate would be easy on a 45L pack.

I think we need to be careful with trying to strap on the kitchen sink when talking about dismounted infantry ops, whether we're talking conventional high order fighting, or COIN work.
A bag doesn't need to be carried by each infantryman. At the most, 50% should carry one forward, while the remainder are moved by the company logistics element and brought forward only once the units transition to assembly area security or return to a rear area.

It's not going to be comfortable to try to sleep with only a bivvy bag, poncho liner, and sleep shirt at 32 degrees, but I don't think we should be stripped down to our underwear in the complete sleep system if we're in a dismounted fight with ANY enemy. It' for that reason that we need to keep the bulk of our comfort gear off our backs, and force some echelon to perform logistics and mobility operations like they should.

That's real lightfighter work...

ETA: I recommend Nick Vaux's Take That Hill for the most modern account of a dismounted slog over an extended period of time and distant, although definitely not under temperate conditions.


Agreed.

As for sleeping bags, we are moving to a 3-bag system; Carinthia Defence 1, Carinthia Defence 4 and Carinthia Defence 6.

http://www.military-sleeping-b...leeping-systems.html

Different units will be issued different sleeping bags, in either the 1 and 4 combo or the 1 and 6 combo (mostly recon units).

Tha idea is to use the 1 for warm weather ops, the 4 for cold weather ops, and the 1 and 4 for extrem cold weather.

I also think a lot of prep, plus proper training and field discipline, will cancel out the need for the proverbial kitchen sink. I find that a baseline is good, but most people don't look past the tips of their nose when doing mission prep.

Proper mission analysis based on METT-TC, with the resulting tailored load is the way to go.

I am actually doing an article for the Army military academy magazine on this issue, overloading soldiers.

If only we could start issuing bivvy bags for every man, instead of always relying on tents.

Going to post my summer and winter loads soon, just need to refine them a bit more.

It's not about surviving, it's about winning.

quote:
I am actually doing an article for the Army military academy magazine on this issue, overloading soldiers.


If you'd be kind enough to translate it, I would like to read it when you finish.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I'd like to read it as well.


For the hygeine kit, I've started carrying a very small(1/4 oz I think) dropper bottle full of Dr. Bronner's soap in place of shaving cream and tooth paste. It cuts down on bulk big time and works really well. The only hygeine bits I take are a razor(and I only take that because we have to shave) toothbrush, tiny bottle of soap, and baby wipes.

Another thing I've started implementing again is spread loading gear. 2 in a team bring their tarp, the other 2 bring their etool, etc etc.

I was checking out a packing list made by one of the senior guys in my Co and he had an extra utility top and bottom, and boots in the intermediate(72hr) packing list.
When I asked why they were included for such a short duration, his response was "Why not? They're just going to go on the vehicle anyways"
He saw the light when I presented the idea of having to do dismounted ops, and the scouts missions.

72 hr op load for me:
The most difficult part of this type of load for me is the pack I put it in. The issued assault pack is no where near big enough to support 3 days of kit, and the main bag is just way too big.
I'm picking up a medium ALICE today as I think it is the right size for missions of 3-5 days

poncho(tarp) and liner
Bivy bag, depending on the weather and mission
sleeping mat, depending on the mission this is spread load
long sleeve merino top
spare merino socks x1 and I keep an extra thick cotton pair for sleeping
foot care kit
hygeine kit
camo paint
beanie
duct tape folded around an old credit card
550 cord in pre cut lengths
jetboil or a small alchohol stove and tin foil
coffee and fein packets
gore tex top and bottom, weather dependant
chow
water
mission essentials
The whole shaving in the field practice is just stupid, particularly in winter. You have a natural layer of fat on your skin. By shaving you remove that fat, and you become more susceptible to frost injuries.

I'll try to translate the article when I have time. Going on an FTX next week, so I'll se if I have time tomorrow or monday.

It's not about surviving, it's about winning.

quote:
The issued assault pack is no where near big enough to support 3 days of kit, and the main bag is just way too big.


I've intended to get down to Supply to check one of those out, but always end up disengaged. How does that beast integrate with a SPC? I like the form of the compartments, but the shoulder straps look like they still suck.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

It's not too bad if you keep the back of the SPC slick, but it still sucks sir.

As soon as you put a bladder in there, the capacity is pretty limited. And the back bows out to make it ride awkwardly on the back plate.

What we need is something like the army's new assault pack with the DEI frame, the Spec Ops recon ruck ultra, or the good ole med ALICE IMO.
Yes, medium ALICE seems to do the trick if you aren't goin to drop coin on the others you mentioned.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

First off, The new ruck system is Wayy better than the ILBE. But touching on that other thread about carrying just gear essential forward from the ORP or just for a 24 hour mission, the new assault pack is big enough to carry just what you need for essential gear. The main ruck however is huge. So the problem is that for a 72 hour type mission, there is still nothing there that is issued. You go with the assault pack, and it ends up all gypsy rigged with shit hanging off it and unsecured. You want a little more capacity and go with the main ruck and you have a big floppy used condom on your back. Another thing that is a product of that is that If you chose the former, you may bring too little and become a liability, and if you prefer the latter you may overpack and negate the purpose of having an assault pack. The Army has it right with that medium ruck to compliment the MOLLE system. It does create a logistical issue I could see for the guys at Quantico to purchase a 3 pack system and most "make do" Marines can do just fine with what we have and be happy the Marine Corps got us something new. I end up using my MR SATL for those 72 hr ops, but I have a different mission than traditional grunts.
Call me old school but I think the medium ALICE is optimal in the role discussed here.

I wish someone made a 64 pattern ruck out of light weight material and for less than the price of Drop Zone's version.

"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!" -Lt. Gen. Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

I agree, and it can be cinched down to work as an assault pack as well. I think the overly bulky frame is the only limiting factor for the medium ALICE.

As far as the new assault pack is concerned, it is a vast improvement over the old jansport. But it is definitely in assault pack size. Leaving the gap as atrocity mentioned.
Another issue with the USMC pack system is the carrying of mission essentials. If you're doing LP/OP, recon, or ambush ops there is a lot of stuff that goes along with those missions. And the assault pack isn't up to those tasks IMO.

I'm dropping off my med ALICE today to get some repairs and mods done. And I'll probably send it to TT when they do their Christmas sale to get the ALICE web replaced with MOLLE.
quote:
Originally posted by Vet Medic:
Call me old school but I think the medium ALICE is optimal in the role discussed here.

I wish someone made a 64 pattern ruck out of light weight material and for less than the price of Drop Zone's version.


Have you looked at the different 64 packs that CP Gear has?
http://www.cpgear.com/store/pack.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Location: Canada

Good discussion.

There are a couple of ‘depends’ considerations before addressing load for 72 hrs.

-Mission METT-TC, i.e. disaster at home, disaster abroad, raid, winter, summer, third world, risk assessment
-Cross loads with team.

For 72 hours I am not carrying anything but the mission essential gear and the bare essentials. Additional equipment may be brought based off the, what happens if things go bad scenario? What happens if you’re out there for 96+ hours? If you are separated, how do you contact friendly lines? Cold? Is it projected to rain (barometer on watch)?

-72hr stripped rations and water
-water purification tablets or water purification pump
-gortex bivy cover with poncho liner
-reduced footprint thermal mat
-Weapon cleaning kit, CLP
-Hatchet or machete
-towel
-550 cord, lighter, fish hooks
-strobe, firefly w/battery, IR chems, signal mirror, whistle
-2 socks, 2 shirts, cammo stick.
-headlamp, light
-TP
-I’m assuming GPS or compass and map are worn and on person.

“There are two types of Rangers in the Army. Smart and strong. You’re going to be strong!” –1SG Roy Hunt “Which side are we on? We’re on the side of the demons, chief. We’re evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I’m surprised you didn’t know that.” COL Tigh

MikeL

Good looking out, I thought I had googled all the options.

"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!" -Lt. Gen. Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

Just a heads up, I don't know if they have changed where they get their buckles and other plastic parts, but I have had to replace every single one on the hip pad and shoulder straps that I have from there. Its not the bag I know, but from what I can see on the first picture of that Cadpat 64 bag, they are the same flimsy light green pieces of monkey shit.

The pads are comfortable, if they would just stay put, and not crack when its -3, or when I god forbid have more than 40 Lb in my ruck. Absolute SHIT plastic. I replaced all of them already, now it rides nice, but it was a pain in the dick to do.

---------------
"Roger Wilco Over and Out"

 

Joined: 5 Sep 06  Location: Canadian LO Desk..

senorlechero, did I read your post correctly? You are using Dr. Bronner's soap as a toothpaste?

Never used it myself checking it out, does it work for that?

A war is not history until the last veteran dies; until then it is current events.

For the Jungle:
greater than 3 days

flak
Kevlar
Bivy
Isomat
Day pack(preferably a little larger than the marpat issued one)
3 pair of socks
hygene gear
Enough food for your stay(if you didn't get resupply we would bring mains and more food)
camel back
Nalgenes
canteens(it was hot and if you didn't get resupply for three days you needed it all)
no canteen covers cups or stands
Tarp
poncho liner
one Etool per team of four(pretty much only used for pooping)
everything else was personal preference
Flip flops
Bungee cords
knife
compass

Every where I went you couldn't keep your feet dry so I wore wet socks almost all the time and kept flip flops on when we were in camp so my feet would dry, I also wore really long socks so I could use them to peel leaches off when removing them sounds stupid but it worked well. I went commando all the time and I didn't wear a skivy shirt I only wore a boonie cover unless we were in vehicles which was rare. I used the bungees to keep my kevlar on my pack when not in use. I wore jungle boots with vents because they dried out the fastest and pushed the water out while you walked. These are just the things I did in six months of sledging around south east asia. It worked well for me. I am from Michigan and will post later about my winter and temperate climate adventures. also ETA that I toted a 240b so I wanted to be relatively light
quote:
Originally posted by linked308:
senorlechero, did I read your post correctly? You are using Dr. Bronner's soap as a toothpaste?

Never used it myself checking it out, does it work for that?



Yea, it works ok for toothpaste. I use it backpacking for about everything - soap, shampoo, toothpaste, cleaning cooking stuff, whatever. (Using more than just a tiny bit as toothpaste does leave a bit of a weird aftertaste though)
quote:
Originally posted by linked308:
senorlechero, did I read your post correctly? You are using Dr. Bronner's soap as a toothpaste?

Never used it myself checking it out, does it work for that?


Yep, it's one less thing I need to bring out to field with me and it works fine. It's not a replacement for a true fluoride toothpaste, but for short durations it's fine. And it works great as a shaving soap, and I have a very thick, coarse beard.

Another thing you can do, if you can't stomach the soap, I'd put drops of toothpaste on a thin sheet of wax paper and dry it out in the oven.
Ok, so the local sew shop I went to wanted $60 to add fastex buckles to my med ALICE, I said in no uncertain terms screw that and did it myself.

Took all of 10 minutes, dremeled off the old hardware and on went repair buckles. If I can scrounge up a tan flight bag I plan on shoe gooing that to high wear areas.

Do any of you know if Spec Ops H.U.M.P. will work with a DEI frame? The space the Alice Frames creates behind your back is pretty appealing for water storage, and I'd like to keep it and get a lighter frame, without spending $70 of TTs fight light frame.
SL,

I modded my Medium Alice the same way, I also replaced all the PITA metal ladder locks with plastic ones.

As far as the DE frames go on my AC frame there is less room between the frame, waist pad and my back. I like to use that same space for holding items so I have gone back to an ALICE frame. Currently I am using bungie and a Large Kifaru Pull out to organize stuff in the lower frame area.

Gofaster,

Good info on the CP Gear stuff. I am not entirely sold on them but they are a viable option. I would love a 64 pack built out of standard ALICE nylon but they are hens teeth aparantly. For now, I shortened my medium ALICE a couple of inches similar to the CSAR rucks so I could get more frame at the bottom, I hook up a TT First responder bag there (ala the pictures of NAVSPECWAR dudes in the assault pack thread) with some other pouches for a light 3 day pack with a medical module, so far it is working.

"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!" -Lt. Gen. Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

Vet, that's what I figured with the DEI frame. I wonder why they didn't keep the ALICE profile? That space is great for a bladder, no more taking up a third of your main compartment with water.

I'm about to do some field ops in the 72hr time frame, so I've been going over mission planning and prep with my guys, I told them to pack what they thought they needed and bring it in tomorrow, should be interesting.
quote:
Nalgenes
canteens(it was hot and if you didn't get resupply for three days you needed it all)
no canteen covers cups or stands


Where do the Nalgene and canteens go? Loose in the pack?

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

quote:
The Army has it right with that medium ruck to compliment the MOLLE system. It does create a logistical issue I could see for the guys at Quantico to purchase a 3 pack system and most "make do" Marines can do just fine with what we have and be happy the Marine Corps got us something new.


I've slowly become convinced that the majority of infantry Marines do not need a large ruck. For what we tend to use the large MOLLE/ILBE/FILBE for most of the time, a seabag or kitbag with reinforced handles (and maybe a bit of compression) would suffice. I've said as much in the other big thread about redefining 2nd and 3rd line load carriage, but now I'm more certain that we only need tw o packs--assault and a 45 liter-sized setup.

The March Up was admittedly a mech fight for a number of reasons that might not hold true the next time, but the procurement folks need to look at what we did with the majority of the MOLLE rucks; straight onto lash-down points on the tracks, LAVs, and trucks. Once they were put there, they pretty much stayed there and even the Jansport bags saw limited use as well for whatever reason (maybe they were mostly filled with pogey bait Big Grin ).

We have got to adhere to our own doctrine, and follow the most likely situation where we'll orient on the urban centers in the littorals, and the LOCs that get us to them. We don't need a patrol/72 hr/3-day pack that's optimized for alpine terrain and sub-zero climates, or feels like a pillow on our back at the sake of durability. It needs to integrate comfortably with the current and future iterations of individual armor (while optimized to carry a oddball item or two like a radio) to reduce wear fatigue and increase individual comfort, and carry a defined weight limit.

If you're a Reconnaissance Man and need to hump the heavy loads, you should have a system optimized for your needs, in much the same way the battalions maintain wet suits, fins, etc. There isn't a need to use the supply system to maintain a model. Use unit funds to procure the pack that work best. It might even be a modernized large ALICE.

If you're a mortarman, you can use a ALICE pack and frame that requires very little modification to optimize for use.

If you're a sniper, your unit's funds can set you up with anything optimized for operations, much like a 0321.

If you're a radio operator or a JTAC, the basic patrol pack a regular infantryman should have avaable will already be built to accomplish your needs with radio carriage.

Javelin gunner?...yeah, it sucks no matter how you slice it.

The average infantryman would do just fine with a two pack system. The rest of the mental effort should be applied to working the logistics to support the infantry fight, even if it turns out to by wholly dismounted.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I would hope we don't have to learn new lessons.

When people say we're headed to the Far East/Asia, I imagine it creates images of lush, humid jungle, but I'd advise them that in any areas worth fighting over, jungle doesn't predominate. I don't see us fighting on Tinian and Saipan again. In areas where it does, it comes down to a question of whether the IDF/IED/SAF threat dictates wearing body armor despite the terrain and Wx effects. If the chain of command is risk averse, that's a different matter.


Water intake requirements might be higher, but you've got so many more ways to draw water that it's almost easy.

Some of my thoughts on loadout came out of my wet and cold visit to Shoalwater Bay during a Talisman Sabre rotation. That's about as dense veg as I see us fighting a conventional fight in the future. If somebody says we need to prep for the Abu Sayyaf Group, I'd laugh and tell them to simply support the Philippine Marines and Rangers, and stay out of the jungle. Wink

I think our presumed focus on Asia is misguided though, so I'm biased.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

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