77 Grain 5.56mm

Have been reading some about the new 77 grain 5.56mm round being used in Iraq and Afghanistan. From what i see its quite a bit better than the standard round.

Is this a basic issue round, or something intended for the SDM. Is it readily available, in bulk, or is it a special order item?

All I needed to know about islam I learned on 9-11

Original Post
Readily avaiable dude, Federal and Black hills both load it and im sure other vendors do as well.

77Grain SMK's (NOT cheap).

"Stay angry my friends"-the most dangerous man in the world.

 

"All hat, not much cowboy" Big Sky Brewing Co.

 

" I am Godzilla, YOU are Japan" -Critical Bill

Mark 262 is a USSOCOM ammunition item. The Army G3 bought 300,000 rounds from SOCOM and sent it to Kuwait to arm the 3rd Infantry Division's Squad Designated Marksmen for their 2005-2006 rotation as part of a TRADOC Warfighter Experiment.

The Marines have a similar load (I think Mark 294).

It is NOT an Army-standard round.
I had the unpleasant task of eliminating 4 huge packs of dogs on FOB Summerall in Iraq 2004. It took 3 or more rds of ball ammo to take out a dog. Poked little .22 caliber holes in them and then they ran for 3 counties. I got to shooting them in the shoulder to keep them from running, then ran up and capped them in the head.

Got some 77gr SMK from an SF buddy in Balad and DAMN! No shit, one shot, one kill. I wacked 15 dogs with one round each. Never had a bullet exit the carcas. Average shot was 75-100 meters. Longest shot was 175 meters running.

Dogs ranged from 45 -150 pounds. One was so big it took two of us to load the carcas in the Gator to take it to the dump. They may not be pets but they aint starving either.
Carl or Terry blackhills ammo 605-348-5150.

MK 262 mod 0
AA53/NSN 1305-01-497-9996

MK 262mod 1
AA53/NSN 1305-01-507-7511

They can tell you what vendors have it or had recent shipments.
"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." "”George Washington
The only Mk262 I found was in a turn-in bin in '05. I got 100 rounds that way I passed off to the snipers. A buddy of mine worked the brigade ammo point this last time, he said he looked for some and never found any.

DocGKR said the Nosler 77 grain was better than the 77 grain SMK for terminal performance if you're going to handload up some Mk262 clone loads.
I understand that the military is highly restricted in the types of ammunition that it can use, and required legal authorization to utilize the SMK as a load in any rifle.

A few years ago, Federal offered a 55gr tactical/LE load with a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, with specially made boat tail bullets. This load offered improved performance against vehicle glass and doors (but does not come close to .308 in any load). A 77 gr version of this might be by far the best choice for the LE world. Does anyone offer such a load?

Live Free or Die

Try page 12 here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2). The Winchester 60 gr JSP Nosler Partition (Q3283) load is the current FBI .223 load; in addition to the Winchester product, Black Hills also does a very nice loading of the 60 gr Nosler Partition. The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also a good choice. Another option would be the Hornady 62 gr JSP TAP Barrier load, although it suffers a bit against glass compared to some of the other loads. The Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, the TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than a TBBC, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off. This phenomena has been documented by the FBI BRF, as well as being noted in our testing. We are also in the process of testing the new 64 gr Speer Gold Dot JSP and the new 62 gr Remington bonded JSP loads, as they show good promise. None of the .223 OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ is also not very good against glass. For military use, the M995 AP is the best choice for vehicles and glass.

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.
Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply.

Federal does not list any of the T loads in this year's catalog. Any ideas for a source? Is anyone loading that 77gr TBBC into a cartridge I can my hands on? I have some boxes of the 223T2...


I was being recruited out your way a few years ago. I knew then what I know now, I would have made a point to meet you.

Live Free or Die

My sniper section used it exclusively in Iraq in 2005. We scored a few first round incapacitating hits at 750m. It turned out to be the “golden bullet” for us. It is remarkably to get in country and it is very prized. We found it to penetrate well on must barriers and be very devastating on anything unfortunate enough to be in front of the bugger. I was corrected when I was talking about the expansion of the round, seems the round actually yaws after impact and the thin copper jacket ruptures and that is what causes the massive wound channel. Long story short, that round puts the bad guys down! Have a few mental pictures of some seriously pissed off has been live guys because of it. Best thing you can do is find some serious trade material and hunt for the SF dudes. The trade goods better be no SHIT good though! Get it if at all possible and make sure you rezero.

Qwa-Heatis (Adjective) kwa’-hee-tiss CORE MEANING: descriptive word used to indicate fucking something or someone up in an extreme yet surprising manner, but in a good way for you, not it/them so much. Used in a sentence; Damn son, you put the Qwa-Heatis on that Mother Fucker!

This is an unbelievable offer if you are there fellows…. Anyone listening, you need to jump on this ASAP! You can’t know what you are missing until you get it and smoke check some bugger eater with it! If it were me, I'd find a way to load up! M4Guru, you are a Great American for the offer, wish I were there to take you up on it.

Qwa-Heatis (Adjective) kwa’-hee-tiss CORE MEANING: descriptive word used to indicate fucking something or someone up in an extreme yet surprising manner, but in a good way for you, not it/them so much. Used in a sentence; Damn son, you put the Qwa-Heatis on that Mother Fucker!

quote:
Originally posted by XOGA:
I understand that the military is highly restricted in the types of ammunition that it can use, and required legal authorization to utilize the SMK as a load in any rifle.

A few years ago, Federal offered a 55gr tactical/LE load with a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, with specially made boat tail bullets. This load offered improved performance against vehicle glass and doors (but does not come close to .308 in any load). A 77 gr version of this might be by far the best choice for the LE world. Does anyone offer such a load?


I read the legal opinion many years ago when I was at AFSOC...the gist of it was that the hole in the tip of the bullet was a consequence of the manufacturing process (swaging?) and was not intended to produce, nor was it effective at producing, expansion upon impact. Therefore, the bullet was not a prohibited "dum-dum" bullet. I also read somewhere that Sierra figured out how to make the tip solid, but discovered this degraded the accuracy. Some benchresters use a tool to make the holes uniform, as they can get deformed.
quote:
Originally posted by Val Hallan:
quote:
Originally posted by XOGA:
I understand that the military is highly restricted in the types of ammunition that it can use, and required legal authorization to utilize the SMK as a load in any rifle.

A few years ago, Federal offered a 55gr tactical/LE load with a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, with specially made boat tail bullets. This load offered improved performance against vehicle glass and doors (but does not come close to .308 in any load). A 77 gr version of this might be by far the best choice for the LE world. Does anyone offer such a load?


I read the legal opinion many years ago when I was at AFSOC...the gist of it was that the hole in the tip of the bullet was a consequence of the manufacturing process (swaging?) and was not intended to produce, nor was it effective at producing, expansion upon impact. Therefore, the bullet was not a prohibited "dum-dum" bullet. I also read somewhere that Sierra figured out how to make the tip solid, but discovered this degraded the accuracy. Some benchresters use a tool to make the holes uniform, as they can get deformed.


I know of two uses of a hollow point, err open tip, in the MatchKing rifle round. The first is to move the center of gravity of the bullet back to reduce yaw and make the bullet more stable in flight. The second is to create better air flow around the front of the bullet and again improving stability in flight. They were definitely never meant to enhance expansion.
Good luck getting it Sir.

According to "dude" (Civi ammomanager at BAF) there are close to 550,000 rds of Mk262 (mod0 or mod1) available here in Afg. Just not to "guard" guys" because "ya'll don't shoot as much as the AC units so we aren't going to waste it on part timers..."

Thats the comments sent back via email on our request for Mk262.

I shoot more every damn year outta my own pocket than your average 101st Infantry Squad does with Govt ammo.

Jackasses....

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

quote:
Originally posted by Christopher Liu:
quote:
Originally posted by Val Hallan:
quote:
Originally posted by XOGA:
I understand that the military is highly restricted in the types of ammunition that it can use, and required legal authorization to utilize the SMK as a load in any rifle.

A few years ago, Federal offered a 55gr tactical/LE load with a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, with specially made boat tail bullets. This load offered improved performance against vehicle glass and doors (but does not come close to .308 in any load). A 77 gr version of this might be by far the best choice for the LE world. Does anyone offer such a load?


I read the legal opinion many years ago when I was at AFSOC...the gist of it was that the hole in the tip of the bullet was a consequence of the manufacturing process (swaging?) and was not intended to produce, nor was it effective at producing, expansion upon impact. Therefore, the bullet was not a prohibited "dum-dum" bullet. I also read somewhere that Sierra figured out how to make the tip solid, but discovered this degraded the accuracy. Some benchresters use a tool to make the holes uniform, as they can get deformed.


I know of two uses of a hollow point, err open tip, in the MatchKing rifle round. The first is to move the center of gravity of the bullet back to reduce yaw and make the bullet more stable in flight. The second is to create better air flow around the front of the bullet and again improving stability in flight. They were definitely never meant to enhance expansion.


The legal opinion regarding the use of open-tip bullets can be found here Will try to find an authoritative copy from a .mil source later. Dr. Fackler's article referenced in the opinion is very interesting, particularly where he points out that European-manufactured 7.62x51mm ammunition could potentially be much more damaging than the much-maligned U.S. M193 bullet, as they used much thinner jackets than we do, and the bullets tend to shatter on impact (unlike typical U.S. 7.62 ball ammo) generating more damaging frag than the M193. I have heard Col (Dr.) Fackler is a figure of some controversy, but if anyone can provide a more scientific treatment of wound ballistics, I'd love to have a copy.
As for the ammo in Ammunition Supply Points, if it was SOCOM bought and paid-for ammo (Military Funding Program - 11/ Special Operations dollars) it's NOT for general distribution for anyone who shows up with a truck.

SOCOM doesn't buy bullets for the rest of the Army.

Conversely if it's an Army item and there's a valid requirement Army (by law) must provide it to USASOC units.

Mother Army has to buy every ammo and pyrotechnic device the service decides it must have by the guys who forecast (down to the battalion). The Army historically forecasts more pyro than it will ever use. A case of smoke grenades or a smoke pot costs a ridiculous amount. Every non-bullet item competes with each round of small arms ammo.

The G3 is squeezed between what the Army says it needs (including smoke, pyro, and flares) and what it actually issues and shoots (metric ass-loads of lead-and-copper small arms cartridges). Your small arms bullet demands compete with every rocket, missile, mortar, arty, tank, and cannon shell, and every smoke, flare, and simulator.

Army G3 then gets something like the numbers of 77-grainers that USASOC units shoot and says, "No way -- not if every ground unit will want it too." Until they're forced to, Mother Army won't buy it and SOCOM buys its own SF ammo.

The SOCOM dollar provides SOF units flexibility to buy something that Leg Army equipment doesn't provide -- armor, comms, bullets, Special operations-peculiar "Stuff."
Per the conversation with "dude", it (the pile at BAF) was not SOCOM property. It was just for "Active duty" units. I responded with "well, we sure aren't here on Drill fucking weekend" letting the chain of command work it. (or at least gonna try)

Dave

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

It is or was called AA53 at one point. That was the non molly non crimped 77 sierra. If you want it, it used to be the case that you needed to get that DODIC added to your ammo account. Now a days, you might be able to request it from the SPT platoon and see if they can get it from the ASP if you are down range. I would venture to say that there are not all that many regular units that would be asking for it and if a unit rotated back home with DMR's then there is a chance that there is still some around.
quote:
Originally posted by Val Hallan:

The legal opinion regarding the use of open-tip bullets can be found here Will try to find an authoritative copy from a .mil source later.


W. Hays Parks' M852 memo was reprinted in the Feb. 1991 issue of "The Army Lawyer". The Library of Congress has a copy of the issue online:

http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Mili..._Law/pdf/02-1991.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by M4Guru:
I have this stuff coming out my ears. Anyone in country right now is welcome to come pick some up (.mil only), no trade bait required.


Iraq or Afghhanistan?

I'm going to be in A in a few weeks and would love to get my hands on it (and find out how you got it)

All I needed to know about islam I learned on 9-11

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