A Game-Changer: The DG-16 ruck

We have been talking about this ruck in other threads, but wanted to start one just for this ruck, because I think there's is some truly ground-breaking work going on here.  For those of you that are interesting in long range patrolling, for security purposes, the subject comes up of how you intend to carry your load out.  When we talk about military applications, it's usually a choice between a short back ruck and "battle belt" system, or, a long back ruck and chest rig (possibly PC) system.  A good example of the former is a Large ALICE, with battle belt and suspenders, and the latter would be a MR 6500, with a chest rig and/or a plate carrier.  

And there have been some interesting developments in both categories.  For example, combining an upgraded ALICE bag, with a DE 1606 frame, and a custom suspension (such as a DE "mountain" harness).  With a Brit style belt kit.  Or a MR ruck, with a Crye JPC, and custom micro chest rig.  

But then 22 Foxtrot introduced us to the Crossfire DG-16.  What they have done here is phenomenal.  Essentially they have figured out how to have both a short back and long back ruck, in the same package, by adjusting/modifying the suspension system, on a frame that acts like both an internal, and external; it has a nice "hollow", that will accept a back plate, or it will provide a nice air gap, ala ALICE.  

After having dabbled with this, on and off, for over 30 years, I took one look at this, and knew they had done it.  Someone finally figured out how to make a ruck, for military applications, that will not only work with belt kit, but also with chest rigs, AND body armor.   Done and dusted.  

I truly believe this will be a game-changer.  They have set the new standard for military ruck design.  I just pulled the trigger for their frame and suspension, in multicam.  Which is available for purchase, separately.  It will work with any ALICE compatible bag, although I plan on removing any ALICE sleeve and rigging it as they do their bags, via "Yib-Yab" tabs (as seen on Jarhead or Molle rucks).  Perhaps not necessary for all, but I want a more solid interface between bag, frame, and suspension.  

BTW their bag bears much resemblance to MR, and is a thing of beauty.  However, I am going in another direction, essentially keeping it as light as possible.  So I will be working on a new bag to complete my system.         

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Original Post

I don't think the ground-breaking and game-changing aspects of this frame end at .MIL applications.

I've been looking at the same frame, potentially for use in conjunction with a large, lightweight stuff sack and a compression panel (like the HPG/ALICE combination from the other thread), for use either on its own (long-back style) or riding above a belt kit (short back). Use case is general backpacking in the SE US, so the external frame is advantageous for sweat purposes and justifies the increased base weight. The modularity of the system looks like it would shine on extended outings with a long-ish hike in, followed by setting up camp for a few days and taking shorter hiking/fishing excursions from camp with just the belt kit.

I even think that the basic concept could have merit with the UL/through-hiking crowd by adapting  something like a ZPacks arc frame over a lightweight belt kit where durability and load capacity are less of a concern.

Anyway, looks like an awesome pack. Good work, Crossfire. I'm looking forward to both 22F and Diz's feedback on it once they have their chances to really shake it down.

I have spoken at length with Chris of Down Range Gear, about the spark of creativity in a design that makes you go Why did that take so long for someone to dream up?   This is one of those moments.

I am so far out fo the game now that it’s not even funny, but it makes me wish I was, just so I had an excuse to dabble with one of these.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I think this is going to prove to be the new standard for military rucks, although for me, this means as a long range reconnaissance ruck, in the 40-50 lb range.  If you typically over-load your ruck with sharp, pointy shit, as many teams are prone to do, then you might want to stick with a metal frame (sucks to be you).  But then again, I'd love to see a head to head test.  

But, for most armed civilians, if a LRRP-type mission becomes a requirement, then I think this frame and suspension will become the new gold std.

Padding.  Especially hip padding.  Yes this is a sore spot for me.  I too subscribe to the view that the less fat you have on you, the less padding you need to wrap around you.  Reading about Crossfire, and the designers they went to for this, I was impressed with the depth of their knowledge and experience (over 30 years working directly with the Aussie SAS).  They actually combine three layers of different materials into their padding system.  They have a hard plate, to keep everything from rolling up, and two different densities of foam, so the pad contours to you, but also supports the load.  So yes, it is a bit thicker than I normally like, but I like the thinking that went into it and am willing to give it a go.   

Also, the belt is really segmented into three separate parts.  You have the center lumbar, then the side lumbars, then the side extensions, which are removable.  So if you just want a lumbar panel, ala ALICE, remove the side extension pads, and either tape up the waist belt (my preference) or use it without any side padding.  You could then adjust the lumbar panel (up) for use with a belt kit.  

Or, use the complete belt system, adjusting the lumbar pad (down), and use it as a hip belt.  Now you can run a chest rig or PC.

The shoulder straps are equally as well though out.  They have the thickness and width to handle the weight of a fully loaded ruck.  They connect to the frame and bag much like an internal frame ruck, which means you pretty much get the best of both worlds here.  It rides like an internal but with the extra strength of the external.  

The frame itself I find intriguing.  They tried to match the "spring" or torsion rate to the human body, so it works with you to carry the load.  Not too stiff, but not too soft either.  It's supposed to be matched to how you articulate when hiking.   Much like the harness, it too is supposed to contour and move with you, but also support the weight.

So we shall see.  But confidence is high that this system will be the shit.   That pic doesn't do it justice.  Check out the You-Tube  review by that bushcraft dude.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz, I am in the same boat.  Strongly considering picking up the frame for use with my old ALICE (still my favorite pack to hump to this day, for all the reasons elucidated throughout the various threads you've opened recently).

Will wait eagerly for your assessment of this combination before I move forward, but I think it's going to be the cat's ass.  I don't see myself retrofitting the new-fangled attachment tabs to my pack for mounting though - do you see any issues with slipping the Crossfire frame in the sleeve like you would a normal ALICE frame?

--Dave

 

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally."

Too bad they don't make one in Multicam for us yanks. 

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

Diz,

I’m glad you’re onto this one mate. 

It saves me looking like I’m astroturfing

 

I’ve been playing with the DG-16 for about 12months now. I haven’t published the review yet because I’m doing some work for Crossfire to get samples of the DG-16 into American hands to gain some exposure - which means I don’t want them to go straight to my review. 

 

It’s my humble opinion that the DG-16 will be the premium combat pack on the market. 

You’ve hit on Crossfire’s design philosophy: they’re very technical boys with a wealth of experience in load carriage and the outdoors. They’re not military, but that’s why they sit down and listen to some of their friends who are. I’ve had a relationship with them for a long time now.

 

I’m very pleased and proud as punch to say I’ve played a small part in some of the design feedback on this one, offering end-user experience about certain design usage and requirements by troops out there. 

 

As you’ve noted, the frame is amazing. I honestly think it’ll make the DEI item obsolete.

The harness is amazing. It’s actually something like a 5-layer ablative design that will still enable you to get home with all your gear should it fail. 

That philosophy is endemic throughout the design: it’s engineered to get home after failure. The team behind Crossfire envisaged a shot-up bomber (something they remember from their youth ) limping home with battle damage. 

 

The material isn’t coated. Each individual strand is encapsulated with a proprietary chemical. This gives massive abrasion resistance and increased performance for water resistance.

 

Design points:

Crossfire did have a strategic relationship with Mystery Ranch a few years ago. It’s now dissolved, and I’m not prepared to discuss that any more - as an independent consultant to Crossfire and still on friendly terms with Mystery Ranch, it’s none of business and something I don’t wish to get caught up in. 

 

Most of the design points for the pack have come from over 30 years of end-user feedback and the last 15 years of deployments for us in the ADF in Afghan and Iraq.

You should compare and contrast with the officially issued pack through Diggerworks and DMO, which can be seen here:

https://www.lightfighter.net/t...a-large-assault-pack

 

I’m in the process of final editing for the DG-16 review. So fire a way with any questions you may have. 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

HomoSepian posted:

Too bad they don't make one in Multicam for us yanks. 

Mate, 

I’ve mentioned it to them before. 

The big problem is getting the material in minimum order sizes when you’re a small company. 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

drh2687 posted:

Diz, I am in the same boat.  Strongly considering picking up the frame for use with my old ALICE (still my favorite pack to hump to this day, for all the reasons elucidated throughout the various threads you've opened recently).

Will wait eagerly for your assessment of this combination before I move forward, but I think it's going to be the cat's ass.  I don't see myself retrofitting the new-fangled attachment tabs to my pack for mounting though - do you see any issues with slipping the Crossfire frame in the sleeve like you would a normal ALICE frame?

Mate, 

shouldn’t be any problem with that. 

It’s ALICE compatible, because the ADF went with a warmed over and fucked up ALICE variant for their latest pack.

Crossfire has always had a weather eye to aftermarket sales for us poor bastards that get lumped with shit gear by the ADF. 

 

Once I get the DG-16 review published, I’ll be doing an article for mating the frame to other packbags. 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

22F posted:
 

I’ve been playing with the DG-16 for about 12months now. I haven’t published the review yet because I’m doing some work for Crossfire to get samples of the DG-16 into American hands to gain some exposure - which means I don’t want them to go straight to my review. 

 

Dubai is a third of the distance to the U.S.   And if you want to measure performance in the heat, it’s 104 deg here today; feels like 115.

Just sayin’.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

22F posted:
HomoSepian posted:

Too bad they don't make one in Multicam for us yanks. 

Mate, 

I’ve mentioned it to them before. 

The big problem is getting the material in minimum order sizes when you’re a small company. 

Use your connections & get a fair idea of what min/max solution for a run of Multicam DG16 would be.

See if the minimum number required seems achievable extrapolated from interest expressed here or or not.

If achievable, decide if Crossfire wish to deal directly, via a trusted contact or via a dealer in USA...say someone with form in bulk deals.

Decide how it is to progress (20%, 50% down or 100% up front purchase etc)

Take samples to SHOT as 'in production' chum & see who/what bites.  Ensure someone more presentable than you is available to model it.

jcustisredux posted:
22F posted:
 

I’ve been playing with the DG-16 for about 12months now. I haven’t published the review yet because I’m doing some work for Crossfire to get samples of the DG-16 into American hands to gain some exposure - which means I don’t want them to go straight to my review. 

 

Dubai is a third of the distance to the U.S.   And if you want to measure performance in the heat, it’s 104 deg here today; feels like 115.

Just sayin’.

Only 104? You lucky SOB. It usually drops that low around midnight here.

 

 

runningwolf posted:
jcustisredux posted:
22F posted:
 

I’ve been playing with the DG-16 for about 12months now. I haven’t published the review yet because I’m doing some work for Crossfire to get samples of the DG-16 into American hands to gain some exposure - which means I don’t want them to go straight to my review. 

 

Dubai is a third of the distance to the U.S.   And if you want to measure performance in the heat, it’s 104 deg here today; feels like 115.

Just sayin’.

Only 104? You lucky SOB. It usually drops that low around midnight here.

 

You guys going to play 'Yorkshiremen'?

You guys crack me up.  

Yeah you know, if they did come out with a MC bag, I'd have to get it, just for drill.   But I understand why they haven't.

Yeah it looks like it will work with most any ALICE compatible bag, but, I think if you do add the tabs it will really lock into the frames potential.  As a side note, one of the wear points for ALICE in hard use has been the frame sleeve.  So much weight is concentrated there.  I used to hand tack the ruck/frame junctures with waxed cord to reinforce this area.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

You guys crack me up.  

Yeah you know, if they did come out with a MC bag, I'd have to get it, just for drill.   But I understand why they haven't.

 

Still, it would be interesting to know what the critical number would be for Crossfire.

I have one of their earlier packs: I could never convince myself to buy a Nice frame for it (cost, conflict with webbing & these days I don't do much heavy packing)...but the Crossfire frame is just affordable.

I didn't want to get into biz practices, but it seemed that local dealers would be the way to go for some of this stuff, like MC. Get them to buy however many themselves, it's on them to sell them off. 

I've had to help folks repair sleeve pockets on the ALICE Med, repeatedly. And some other bits that like to tear out. The pack body is not especially cleverly structured, so backing with binding tape (or sometimes, with other webbing) is common when I am doing machine repairs at least.

I've had a few old timers say that if it tears, it's your fault for overloading. Because, you know, always blame the individual soldier for the load they are given. 

 

Fount this, which seems impossibly useful for comparison of many of the old school packs: 

The Med Alice always seems tiny when configured like this. The one I don't even use anymore in the corner of my basement is hanging with a shelter half rolled underneath it. That always feels like part of the pack's volume to me as a result.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Hey nice visual.  And I've humped all that shit!

Yeah on the ALICE sleeve, I'd wager 80-90% of the weight is hanging on that sleeve, with the rest on the bottom straps.   I think where they're going with all these tabs we're seeing (FILBE, Molle, and now Crossfire) is that now the weight will be more evenly distributed, over the perimeter of the frame, vs hanging straight down from the top.  So if I was an engineer, I'd tell you how the force vectors are now evenly distributed over the surface area of the frame or some such shit.

So yeah I can see when you're rucking the damn thing, the weight now rests on these tab junctures, and maybe flows with you, if that's the way to say it, rather than hanging straight down, like a sack of shit, which just shifts around as you move.  

So for me, I think adding the tabs is going to be the way to go.  By removing the ALICE sleeve, you are making the weight spread out onto the tabs.  So even if it's sideways, or upside down, the frame is still working. Or maybe more practical, at a 30-45 deg angle on uneven terrain, the tabs are still tying in the weight to the frame, vs the traditional ALICE sleeve, which is only working through a very narrow range of near vertical.  

So yeah that may be a key piece in getting the cross-over from internal to external frame.  Especially if you're doing more than "just" road-marching on smooth asphalt.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

22F -  Thanks for the info on pack compatibility.  Will look forward to your review and article.  That's fucking awesome that they have built this thing keeping all those aspects in mind.

Also excellent points on the value of the tab attachments - particularly the non-vertical-usage aspect which I hadn't considered.  I've never blown out an ALICE sleeve either, nor have I ever had any of mine begin to exhibit stitching failure after heavy use, so I figured for a regular guy that doesn't have the ability or inclination to start bar-tacking attachment tabs it would be good enough.

All this force vector talk has me rethinking that though.  Seems silly to have a space age frame and handicap it by attaching it in a way it's not designed.

 

 

--Dave

 

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally."

Yeah but that's the beauty of the thing; for GP use, you can probably get away with the ALICE sleeve.  For more hard core shit, the tabs come into play.  I'd love to see this frame go head-to-head with the TT welded alum frame.  Which just so happens to be what one of my buds runs.  So we can make that happen.  When the boat gets here with me kit.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

It has shipped!  

Some thoughts.  The Crossfire bag does look fantastic.  I mean it's everything I always wanted.  I'm fucking torn here.  My latest "initiative" is to lighten up my kit as much as possible.  This has become the watch-word in certain circles.  But that bag is exactly what I would have wanted maybe a year or two ago.  Arggh.  Maybe 22F can weigh in here on strength and capability vs weight.  Tell me why you would use this bag as is, instead of trying to lighten it up.  Not trying to put you on the spot, I'm just curious as to what the design theory was.  Because I really want this fucking bag!  If they decide to do a limited run in MC, let me know.     

On the ALICE sleeve.  Yeah I hear this a lot.  One guy has never had any issues.  The next guy shows me where then damn thing had some wear.  A couple of things.  ALICE rucks were made by several vendors over the years.  I would imagine you have QC variation over the years, as well as within batches.  So you could get one on the good side of the tolerance, or you could get one that was marginal.  Also, guys have different ideas of what hard use is.  One may be rucking on roads or trails; one may be busting bush overland.  Then you have guys who jump out of airplanes with them, and are famous for fucking them up.  So what do you say.  Well, I think it usually holds up well, in light to moderate use, but has some breakdown when subjected to extreme use.   Since these are individual user-defined terms, of course this may vary.  But.  If you look at the junctures, where the sleeve is sewn into the bag, at the lower, outside points, this is where I have seen wear, nylon vs aluminum.  Also the top, outside points of the sleeve, towards the bag, have popped some stitches; this is why the later bags were reinforced here with a layer of 1" webbing, sewn across the sleeve back and bag.   These 4 point were reinforced with 2 turns of "Supertack", tied off with a surgeon's knot (paragear.com).

So yeah, you can roll with or without the sleeve here, based on your experience and preference.   I happen to think the tabs just make more sense, but that's just me.  Got nothin' to back that up yet.         

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Been really thinking about the bag design.  For me, it's a couple of things.  First, the threat level drives the way in which you access your kit.  If enemy contact is likely or even possible, you really don't want to be doing a big bag dump when someone calls out "contact front".  So it's nice to have a bag where you can get at stuff, quickly, one thing at a time.  And if needed, break contact quickly, with minimum fuss (and still have your rucksack).   Secondly, after some time in the bush, fatigue sets in and complex shit becomes a chore.  So a bag that's easy to work out of reduces your workload, especially when tired, hungry, hot/cold, and half-sick.

Traditionally, large military rucks would have external pockets, that made getting at stuff quick and easy, without opening up the main bag.  So you could break for noon chow, set up overhead cover, access cold/wet weather gear, etc.  all as individual tasks, without the rest of your kit laid out for CO's inspection.  The main bag would contain your spare base clothing, food and water supply, and other mission essential equipment, not needed on a regular basis.  You might not need access that but once a day, to plus up food and water (and maybe ammo), with your buddy covering you on watch.  Then it's all packed up for your watch, and of course stand-to in the morning.

Now, the sticky point is how much access do you want to the main bag.  Traditionally, the top loader with one big compartment and WP liner has been used.  Recently we've seen examples of zippered access to bottom sleep system compartments, and vertical side zips added.  These are good features to have, but at what cost?  Is the added accessibility worth the added weight and complexity to the build.  That's the question in my mind.  Each added feature to the ruck is added weight on the march.  I would be interested in hearing what you guys think.          

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

We have the bottom open zippers on the issue MOLLE ruck and I hate it. Good idea but the thing is a bitch to get zipped back up. More hassle then it’s worth half the time. Personally a medium ALICE with a MR top flap seems like a good idea. If I can’t fit what I need to get to quickly in a top flap or the externals I probably don’t need it as quick as I think I do or need it at all.

We could trim down so much crap if NCOs would just check their guys stuff to make sure they aren’t overloading themselves. They are too concerned with whether Pvt Snuffy is using the issued equipment set up per Brigade SOP when they should be asking “does this make sense? Is he gonna need this or is it just dead weight?” And then explaining that to PVT Snuffy so he can understand the reasoning instead of just thinking “Sarge is a real douche. I need my solar panel and battery bank on this LP/OP otherwise I’m gonna be bored with nothing to do.”

Shit.  I thought I was the only guy who packed a solar panel.  

Gotta keep that Bluetooth speaker Rockin’ For those road marches.

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

Oh don’t get me wrong there are times I definitely agree on taking electronics to keep guys entertained. Usually how it works with my company is we will go to field for a week. Finish everything by day two and just set out there doing nothing the rest of the time because we aren’t allowed to go back. Or have the rest day then TLP day after every lane. Then there is the times when the only training is for the mounted guys but they drag us dismounts out there to torture us. Phones/ solar panels/ Nintendo Switch/ battery pack etc are a big morale boost. It’s when guys are dragging that stuff along and we have to hump everything that NCOs need to be conscious of and check their guys for unnecessary weight.

Bottom compartment zippers are old school. The pack I had in the 80s had them, and was again a rip off of whatever the base high-speed model had. 

They worked great, were easy to zip up, and had the extra feature of a removable divider between main and lower compartment. Want something larger? Need to clean it? Need to stuff your body in an emergency? Okay, now just a big tube. Also, just a big tube so if you hate the lower zippers, ignore it.

Now... they did DESIGN THIS IN. A huge number of (mostly US Mil issue) packs with this feature just do not work. It can take 10 minutes to get a CFP-90 or FILBE lower zipper closed. You cannot just toss zippers onto things and expect it to work. You also cannot rely on the zipper for structure, so need webbing with SRs to run across it. When I overloaded my well-designed packs, the zippers were hard to close; then I just tightened the straps, to take the load off the closure. Easy. But, only on packs designed right. 

The LCS-84 copied this part well, and a number of things were pretty well designed, actually. So, it's a big top-loading tube, right? But, the distribution of load to structure is such that you can unzip or unroll the two big compartments while it's worn. A OPFOR we once did an advance recon and (not my choice) kept the rucks on (and I carried a fucking SAW) the whole time. So, if we find something and my camera is needed, I stand there while someone unclips the top and gets it out of my ruck. Need the big tape measure (I always carry all the nerd stuff, yeah), well it's by my bivy so don't unclip, just unzip and root around. Fine. Works great. 

A recent and different example: The GGG UL Assault Pack I got for my trip is updated. Two zippers for the second compartment. Both access the same area, but reduces rooting around to find stuff so nothing I put there was accessible/deep but left/right and I could get to everything instantly. I like that idea a LOT also and would love to see it more. 

 

Summary: Extra zippers are fine and can take the place of external pockets even but only if they are fine. Design it well to work smoothly, and admit the weight, structure, and waterproofness penalty.  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

runningwolf posted:

Oh don’t get me wrong there are times I definitely agree on taking electronics to keep guys entertained. Usually how it works with my company is we will go to field for a week. Finish everything by day two and just set out there doing nothing the rest of the time because we aren’t allowed to go back. Or have the rest day then TLP day after every lane. Then there is the times when the only training is for the mounted guys but they drag us dismounts out there to torture us. Phones/ solar panels/ Nintendo Switch/ battery pack etc are a big morale boost. It’s when guys are dragging that stuff along and we have to hump everything that NCOs need to be conscious of and check their guys for unnecessary weight.

Cards and cribbage boards in the last century and that was with nuclear power LOL

 

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

BTW, at the current exchange rate, that pack is only slightly over $500 US (plus shipping, of course).   That's a pretty attractive option.  What's the closest comparable MR pack... maybe the 6500, or the Blackjack 80? 

That's a several-hundred-dollar savings. 

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

Yeah that's a good point.  For a comparable system from MR you are easily in the 750 range. Even the TT MALICE upgrades are up there, with the welded alum frame.   First Spear, yeah you're also up there, as well as LBT.  So apples to apples, the price point is very attractive.  

So you can bitch about the price, but for state of the art, that's the going rate.  Yes I know some guys are gonna say they can get a surplus Large ALICE for 50 bucks.  But I can also get a Moison Nagant for about the same.  Depends on what you want to run.      

Even better, the frame and suspension, in multicam, is 227 US shipped.  So with the bag of your choice, you are getting a very good deal.

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

HomoSepian posted:

BTW, at the current exchange rate, that pack is only slightly over $500 US (plus shipping, of course).   That's a pretty attractive option.  What's the closest comparable MR pack... maybe the 6500, or the Blackjack 80? 

That's a several-hundred-dollar savings. 

Now, if you can get someone coming to (say) SHOT to bring it with them...

Yeah man I might just hit the Show again for a chance to see (and maybe hump?) the DG-16.   Maybe bore 22F with my ideas on bags.  "Crabstakes" at the SHOT Show!  Maybe a 10 mi hump for time.  Winner gets a DG-16.  Losers buy beer.        

Romeo Whiskey: Roger that, maybe I could send you a care pkg with some repair stuff.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Linz posted:

Now, if you can get someone coming to (say) SHOT to bring it with them...

I'm generally a Buy American sort of guy.

But I think of Aussies as kinda-sorta American.  They just talk funny.

EDIT:    and a million-and-one uses for the word "c*nt"

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

Well, I claim the Brits and Aussies myself.  Good troops.  I have more in common with soldiers of other countries than half the people in my own.  

I would rather buy from people I have things in common with than by geography.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

But back to the Ruck.  I gathered up a bunch of materials in my shop the other day.  If you take a Large ALICE, modified with external pouches, and compare it to a ruck with access zippers, the weight is pretty much a wash.  For instance, a LBT 2657, with 8 external pouches.  Compared to an ILBE with side zips, or FILBE with bottom zip.  The kicker is really the wrap-around Molle webbing.  I think if you can minimize that, as much as possible, then either method will work.  Just depends on which you prefer.  

Also, having the lightweight polymer frame makes a huge difference regardless of bag type.  So the overall weight savings of the DG-16 is significant, especially if you can use it in lieu of the alum frame.  

I'm going to experiment with using sewn on 1" loops on the bag, in lieu of molle for pouch attachment.  With tabs sewn to the corners of the pouches.  If they stay secure, which I'm pretty sure they will, you could save a lot of weight.  Gregory did this with loops and 1" flat metal buckles back in the day.  Kifaru did much the same, with the hardware reversed.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Also, having the lightweight polymer frame makes a huge difference regardless of bag type.  So the overall weight savings of the DG-16 is significant, especially if you can use it in lieu of the alum frame.  

 

Do you suppose carbon-fiber vs polymer-frame accounts for the weight difference between the MR 6500 and the DG-16?   They're 9.9lbs and 10.6lbs, respectively.

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

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