A Game-Changer: The DG-16 ruck

Diz posted:

Also, having the lightweight polymer frame makes a huge difference regardless of bag type.  So the overall weight savings of the DG-16 is significant, especially if you can use it in lieu of the alum frame.  

 

Do you suppose carbon-fiber vs polymer-frame accounts for the weight difference between the MR 6500 and the DG-16?   They're 9.9lbs and 10.6lbs, respectively.

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

Not so much the frames, but more likely the suspensions. The DG-16 suspension is probably lighter than a Futura and doesn't need "bolsters".  The carbon fiber is probably lighter than the polymer frame, but more closed-cell foam and other materials are used in the suspension and padding.

Not only lighter, but cooler on your back (without BA).  With BA, a nice space for it, instead of all the padding and bolsters on the sides.  There's your weight savings.     

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Yeah you of all people should be taking advantage of this upgrade.   You're actually rucking for a living.   I will test the frame and suspension on various ALICE compatible systems and let you know how they mesh.  My thinking is a smaller frame sleeve, like the FILBE will work the best.  Sometimes the sleeve will interfere with top load stab straps, but I'm sure we can work around it.  

Just got my 500d MC in and am working on my new bag.  Will probably use a small, un-padded sleeve, with plenty of space for top loader adjustment (the frame has three slots per side).  Just enough to hold the corners in place.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Update: Frame and suspension has arrived!

Just wanted to give you my initial impressions.  The stock pictures don't do it justice.  This is a beautiful, well made rig.   My overall impression upon initial inspection is very good.  Technically, as well as visually, the stitching and construction is superb.  It reminds me of the best the semi-custom production from Eagle, LBT, and Paraclete, before the pressures of war production gave way to mediocre, mass-produced gear.   In other words, as a parachute rigger and long-time stitch bitch, it is the shit.  

Some more initial impressions.  The frame is light weight but stout.  Compared to a DEI 1606, it just feels sturdier, denser, more robust.  You get the impression that this just isn't another molded polymer frame; something has been mixed together here, and it's very good.  I love the rectangular layout, vs the DEI hour glass design.  It puts all the attachment points for suspension and bag on the perimeter where they need to be.  As we previously discussed, we can now use the multiple slot points to hang a bag equipped with tabs, versus the ALICE sleeve.   I am going to design a bag around this frame, but if you want to run an ALICE sleeve, it will work, but you will probably have to run the top load straps at their most inboard setting (out of three) which is probably no big deal (unless you are some big-necked MMA dude).

The harness is a thing of beauty.  The one thing that came to mind, when I first looked at it, was this was made by someone who has humped a ruck.  The design is simply a thing of beauty.  It is wide across the shoulders and down the pec, but then is tailored to stay out of your pits (that numb arm thing).  You can feel the various densities of the layers that work together to give you comfort and support.  

It is surprisingly adjustable as well.   The shoulder harness can be set at three different heights.  I have it on the shortest setting, which positions it nicely for a short back ruck, sitting on a belt kit.   Compared to a typical ALICE/DEI frame, I'd say it feels about an inch or so higher on the back.  For reference I have a 17" lumbar measurement, from neck "hump", to base of spine/top of belt.

The hip belt is another work of art.  It is thickly padded, but doesn't act like it.  A  very good balance between comfort and support.  It seems to "mold" into you, for lack of better term, instead of just compressing the padding.  It too has three settings for height.  I have it in the middle setting, which actually lines it up with the frame bottom, and clears the belt kit nicely.

Some odds n ends.  Although it will adjust out for a long back ruck with full hipbelt, I think it's strong suit will be as a short back, with lumbar pad, and belt kit.  It looks to me to be optimized for this role.  Although actual field testing will tell,  it looks to be the perfect "jungle" ops ruck in this config.  This is not to say you can't adjust for wear with a full hip belt and chest rig/BA, which I also plan on doing, but rather is optimized for someone who spends at least half the year in hot, muggy climates.  Which is right up my alley.

The suspension make use of tabs throughout.  Even the sternum strap uses them to attach to the shoulder harness.  So a torn strap is easily replaceable, or, you could change out for an extended strap for use with BA, like the Jarhead rucks.  This is not to say the stock strap won't extend far enough for BA; it probably will, just that you can add another one if needed.  

The top load stab straps are fully adjustable, top to bottom.  This is an oft-neglected adjustment which can really make a huge difference in comfort.  Not only is it adjustable in three positions, as it relates to your neck and shoulders,  but also where the "tangent" point is, as the lower strap meets the shoulder pad.

There are no bottom load stab straps, yet.  I plan on making some that will run from the lumbar pad to the belt kit itself.  I am hoping this mod will allow you to adjust the weight of the ruck somewhat- like an internal.  More on that later.  

There is also another panel, behind the mesh lumbar panel, which I believe is for use with BA.  If not please correct me.  I plan on removing it, to let the mesh panel give me the full effect.  

All in all, I am very please with my purchase.  The quality is just superb, on par with anything made in the states.  The payment and shipping was hassle free.  Mastercard was automatically converted to their currency without a hitch.  I ordered 19 July and it arrived, in NC, 27 July.  So just over a week from half-way around the globe.

More to come.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz,

Thanks for initial impressions. If possible, can you weigh it as shipped and as you intend to use it (after removing possibly superfluous bits you described), and then post for comparison, a DEI you have set up the way you prefer? I'm mainly curious what the positive "solidity" of the DG16 frame you mentioned might mean in ounces.

Second thing I'm curious about is how  best to and to what extent  it will optimize for long back, Alpine format. I love the idea of switching with the seasons and role.

-Von

I'll bet DIZis just unbearable on the radio  

If still not up on photo edit/host/posting to illustrate your points, just start emailing them to me (you have it in the PMs) and I'll post to whichever thread you until we work out a more final system. 

Want to see all the details of this thing!

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Ha you jokers are just jealous.  I threw a Jarhead FILBE on it for shits n giggles.  Fits pretty good.  Gonna load it up later and check it out.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Now you’re starting to see why I like and support Crossfire design philosophy Diz. 

 

That frame, and more so when the DG-16 pack bag is fitted, is designed to provide a “live” load, as opposed to a “static” load such as the ALICE.

 

 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

Yeah man, I am beginning to see the light on that aspect; having a little tension on the load, instead of just hanging down like a sack of shit.  Between the frame attachment tabs, and the compression straps, the ruck bag will be anchored solidly to the frame.  So this concept of combining an internal and external frame is starting to come into focus.  

After rucking an internal frame Bergen for a couple of years, I came to appreciate the better integration between bag, frame, and suspension.   If that can be carried forward to the load-carrying capability of the external frame, you have a new ball game.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Eh well, the frame and suspension are currently available in multicam, but alas, the bag in AUSCAM, khaki, or black.  I am going to show the shit out this frame and suspension, with the different bags you can hang on it, and hopefully some demand will be created for complete multicam systems.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

The khaki is also not bad and would certainly work in a pinch.  Especially if you're like me and like to camo your own kit.

The Arcteryx  Khard and others, are nice rucks, but are long back internal designs.  I've used those as well, both an Arcteryx "Bravo" and the Brit Bergens.  I will talk about those more in the other thread on them.  Basically they work well for mountain or other cold weather work.  But for jungle or hot weather, I prefer the short back external design, of which the DG-16 is looking to be the king.    

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Mostly flat enamel paints.  Spray can for gross macro pattern stuff, and smaller bottles run through an airbrush for smaller pattern "mottling" and such.   There was some Israeli dude that posted some stuff a long time ago, that looked to me as the inspiration for multicam.  Big patterns in greens and browns, counterpointed with smaller dotted shapes of black and light tan.

But I haven't done it for a long time, since going to mostly OCP/MC stuff.     

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Sure man, I'm trying to keep them separated in different thread subjects here.  Check out the long back ruck thread for what you're looking at.

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

HomoSepian posted:

Too bad they don't make one in Multicam for us yanks. 

A little bird tells me that the new DG family will be available in OCP...

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

So a guy...let's call him uh...John....was bored and just reading through gear threads that he can barely understand.   But the one word he definately understands is MultiCam, being he once nearly cornered the world's supply of it for a time.

Say John was getting into some hiking (or rucking in the .mil vernacular) just for exercise and shits and giggles  and wanted one larger pack to compliment the smaller ones he has.  Well John and his Visa card decide that "hey, that Crossfire shit looks pretty neat, we should get some."

And that's how John has a Multicam frame inbound from Australia as we speak.  No shit, true story.

Now when he gets it, he will probably have to PM Diz and have him, in monosyllabic words, describe what to attach to this thing and how to do it.  BTW, this also means that as of 2205 hours, there are MC frames in stock.  If you are quick like a bunny, you might be able to score one.

One day I will make a rough total of how much $$$ this site has cost me since 2004.  Just this week is a $264 frame and a $1300 Randall.  I hope I can make it to the weekend so nobody post any more cool shit that I really have no use for .  I'm paying for a horse too so I appreciate your mercy lest you want to end up in the second volume of my book.

20180126_170733

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

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Diz posted:

Mostly flat enamel paints.  Spray can for gross macro pattern stuff, and smaller bottles run through an airbrush for smaller pattern "mottling" and such.   There was some Israeli dude that posted some stuff a long time ago, that looked to me as the inspiration for multicam.  Big patterns in greens and browns, counterpointed with smaller dotted shapes of black and light tan.

But I haven't done it for a long time, since going to mostly OCP/MC stuff.     

Had some good results with spray paint designed for vinyl car seat- touch up or total colour change

And did you notice how 22F casually slid in that notice that MC may soon be a possibility.  

As far as hanging an ALICE-compatible bag on here.  Yeah it will work; I've already fitted a FILBE, a LBT, a Molle 4000, and yes a Large ALICE.  They all will fit.  It's just a matter of whether the upper stab straps work for you in the middle or inboard position.  Out of the bunch, the FILBE fits the best, since the Jarhead "Yib-Yab" tabs happen to line up with the slots in the Crossfire frame, and the sleeve is cut back which fits better on the frame.  The legacy Large ALICE fits, but the sleeve is so long that it gets tight on the bottom due to the curvature of the frame.  If it was me, I'd op for a good after-market ruck, like the TT or LBT, which gives you OCP/MC camo, external pouches, and a better fit on the Crossfire frame.  

Or, better yet, I'd wait for a Crossfire bag in OCP/MC.

And, for those who haven't already ordered the frameset,  you may be able to order a complete DG-16 in MC very soon.  

  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

And did you notice how 22F casually slid in that notice that MC may soon be a possibility.  

As far as hanging an ALICE-compatible bag on here.  Yeah it will work; I've already fitted a FILBE, a LBT, a Molle 4000, and yes a Large ALICE.  They all will fit.  It's just a matter of whether the upper stab straps work for you in the middle or inboard position.  Out of the bunch, the FILBE fits the best, since the Jarhead "Yib-Yab" tabs happen to line up with the slots in the Crossfire frame, and the sleeve is cut back which fits better on the frame.  The legacy Large ALICE fits, but the sleeve is so long that it gets tight on the bottom due to the curvature of the frame.  If it was me, I'd op for a good after-market ruck, like the TT or LBT, which gives you OCP/MC camo, external pouches, and a better fit on the Crossfire frame.  

Or, better yet, I'd wait for a Crossfire bag in OCP/MC.

 

And, for those who haven't already ordered the frameset,  you may be able to order a complete DG-16 in MC very soon.  

  

Yeah, the only thing I understood was: "better yet, wait for a Crossfire bag in MC."

So that is what I shall do.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Fuckin-A skippy, I am doing the same thing.  Want to get my hands on the DG-16 bag to really get the full potential out of this system.  The FILBE comes close but with a top sleeve still being used, and only two side attachment points, it still falls short of the full potential of having a "live" load, as Crosssfire describes it, versus a "static" load; meaning the bag, frame, and suspension are joined together, to work as system that can move or twist with you, rather than just hanging off your back on a stiff frame.  This is a totally new concept for me that I've never considered.   

So for them to offer kit in OCP/MC is huge.  It takes the final objection away from us to try out some very promising kit.  No idea on the time-line, but this gives me more time to finish my LBT mod (which perhaps will be a slight improvement over the FILBE), for 1606 frame and suspension, and do a head-to-head test with the DG-16 frameset.  The ultimate test will be with a 1606 frame, suspension and LBT mod, against a DG-16 frame, suspension, and bag.

Thanks again to 22F for turning us on to this stuff.  I have always found very good kit in use with commonwealth troops (whether issue or not) and WE/Crossfire is certainly a prime example.          

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I have my bag + frame in hand (in khaki, as I'm not pretending to be anyone I'm not and so don't need multicam). The build quality is amazing, and the level of built-in internal pack organization is several steps ahead of anything else I've carried. Initial impression after filling it with sandbags, jumping up and down, and generally running up and down my street like a crazy person is that this is solid kit. Can't wait to get it into the woods to really test it out.

Any particular detail photos of the setup that the group is interested in? 

All photos! I think we'd take a 100 photo essay.

I still distrust it as I have tried all the Alice frame versions, and did a lot of external rucking in the 80s, so I am not ordering on spec. But, if anyone anywhere near KC has one, tell me and we can go on a ruck walk in a park and trade packs for a bit. 

At least, if someone with one is going to the FOPR, bring it to be the cool guy, and to pass around. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I'll see what I can do about that photo essay.

Re buying on spec: I'm cautiously optimistic. I was in the market for a new pack anyway; my 20-year old Millet internal frame, while still awesome, is showing its age. I still have, and occasionally carry, an ancient Kelty aluminum frame from the early 90s. If this thing delivers on its promise of combining the load stability and ergonomics of the internal with the ventilation and ruggedness of an external, it will be truly special.

Otherwise, I'll sell it to one of you lot.

Matlock posted:

 I'm not pretending to be anyone I'm not and so don't need multicam).

That was very hurtful and makes me sad.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Yeah man, photo the shit out of that thing.  Like to see the bag off the frame and study the attachment points.  Also details of the lids.  Been dying to see more.    

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

OK, until I get the LBT mod done, and get a DG-16/Mk6 bag, I put a re-furbed FILBE bag on the DG-16 frameset and went for a little hike.  Forty lbs of useable kit, including 3L water.  Not just sandbags or whatever ( I have found that sandbags or iron plates don't replicate actual kit very well;  the balance is not the same) .  8 miles on mostly level terrain, about 15 min/mile pace.  Weather was mild at 72 deg and high humidity.  

Repeated the same hike with the same load on a 1606 frameset.  Weather was essentially the same on this day as well.

There is a noticeable difference in the way the frames rides with you.  The 1606 is business as usual; the ruck feels the way it always feels on an external frame.  The DG-16 frameset actually flexes with you- not against you, as is usually the case.  I was  looking forward to actually experiencing this myself, and I'll be damned if it doesn't work- just as advertised.  You wouldn't think it, looking at the frame itself, it looks pretty beefy, but it's actually pretty "springy" as well.  Under load, the thing will flex with you, as you stride.  You know I had a good feeling this was going to be the case, but actually experiencing it was a treat.  

For those of you that have humped both kinds, it's like an internal frame, in that the pack can flex and move with you, through your hips, as well as through your shoulders, as the same time, without "fighting" your movement, as opposed to an external, which can only move in one direction at a time, so as your hip and shoulder movements are swinging in opposite directions, they are frequently "fighting" each other.

But the external has it's own peculiar charms.  You get the load-carrying ability, when necessary, and you get the stand off for ventilation around back.  

So basically you have the advantages of the way an internal rides, with the advantages of the way an external carries heavier (mil-type) loads, with better ventilation in hot weather.

I could sit here and gob on about it all day, but I think this is just something you're gonna have to experience for yourself.  I plan on doing a lot more testing but I gotta a feeling this will bear out in the end.  The LBT mod is just about finished, which will give me another bag to test.   And ultimately, I want a Crossfire bag to test out, because their bags are tied in so much better to the frame, as in the "live" load concept, which should work even better.

I will be interested in hearing what other guys have to say about it.  When their frames get in, or in Matlock's case, when he humps the whole system.              

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

22F posted:
HomoSepian posted:

Too bad they don't make one in Multicam for us yanks. 

A little bird tells me that the new DG family will be available in OCP...

**Readiness Intensifies**

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England,”  -George Orwell-

Diz -   You mention how testing with a sandbag or plate aren't good simulations for an actual loadout, but would the flex in this frame be a liability if someone is using it in an overload capacity hauling a mortar baseplate or the like?  If so, would a MALICE or NICE frame work better?

Tenui Nec Dimittam

 

"Ideals are peaceful.  History is violent"   -Wardaddy, Fury

 

Joined: 8/5/07         Location: Chester County, PA

Good question, and the answer is for my apps, it doesn't, but for what you're saying, it sure does.  Don't know the answer yet but my bud has a TT welded alum frame that we can test head-to-head.  When he's back in town.  I think it actually will but will have to wait to find out.   Unless you have a 60 mike mike laying around.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Sorry, I hard to turn mine in during the change in command.

Seriously, as a Tanker the only rucking I did was pulling it up/taking it down from the bustle rack.  That's not counting the unit ruck runs for PT.  I've also been out for a while so my question was purely academic.

Tenui Nec Dimittam

 

"Ideals are peaceful.  History is violent"   -Wardaddy, Fury

 

Joined: 8/5/07         Location: Chester County, PA

I’m definitely interested in this things ability to hump some awkward loads (mortar, javalin, AG kit, maybe up to say a MK19 and support gear, not all on one ruck but spread across a few, as well as seeing options for attachable carry methods for those pieces of equipment. Like a specific pack capable of holding the CLU and some sustainment gear that’s easy to get the CLU in and out, and a specific pack that can hold the tube and some sustainment gear. Another neat idea would be for the packs to have 60mm pouches sewn into them, like how they had the radio pouches on the ALICE packs, maybe a few slot for like 2-3 60mm, that way they are high and close to your back.

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