A Game-Changer: The DG-16 ruck

4 miles slow with belt kit and ruck. It worked but being a new method sucked. Lower back muscles got a workout and the yoke was initially pushing into my neck forcing my head down, loosened the shoulder straps some more and let it sink into the belt kit which helped. No discomfort other then that though the bottom of the pack did kinda feel like it was pulling away from my body. The yoke harness on the belt kit basically vanished. Didn’t even realize it was there.

Diz you need to look into that design, it’s freaking comfortable. 

Aye Aye Lad, duly noted.  Yeah I'm beginning to realize there's an art to balancing this stuff.  You gotta get the belt kit just right so the ruck works with it, and vice versa.  So the height of the belt kit is critical, as well as the position of the ruck.

Yeah I'm working on something about that hip pad bounce.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Range is on a floodplain, pass a sand dredge operation on the way in. Must be sand. Sand that makes my feet cold. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

Range is on a floodplain, pass a sand dredge operation on the way in. Must be sand. Sand that makes my feet cold. 

Cool- I've seen a few optic grade sand deposits.

Sounds like it is conductive.

 

Back to topic:

Guys, thanks for all this.  I'm learning much in prep for my own pack revamp.

Huh, somehow missed the last of page 6.  OK tracking now.  

Yeah the suspension adjustment thing has always been a challenge, especially when working with belt kit.  In fact I modified mine to adjust down even further, as shown in previous pages.  You are getting quite a bit of strap wrap, both front and back, when doing this.  The upper stab straps now become critical to re-attach the top of the pack, or else the load will beat you to death.

But, this has always been a fascinating subject for me.  I like a shoulder harness that "Y's" together, and then connects all the way down to the hip belt.  This just always made more sense to me; carrying the weight from the bottom up, so to speak, rather than lugging it from the top down.  So the top stab straps mostly hold the load next to you, rather than support the load.  Although they will support it some, if the angle exceeds horizontal.  Which in my case, it does.  So it basically takes over as an upper strap attachment point.  Which is good and bad.    

The Finnish ruck sounds interesting.  They should know cold weather gear, as well as N_T_L.  But many rucks are made today that don't integrate well with belt kit.  In general, metal frames work, but I think the polymer is superior.  I even think the DG-16 frameset would work in sub-zero temps.  In fact the MC is looking at it as a replacement for their FILBE frame.  Which shit the bed in Norway.  So maybe modifying the bag to fit a Crossfire frame (until your Crossfire bag comes in) would allow you to run belt kit.  Put up pics if you can and we'll brainstorm it.

BTW the solid "khaki" is really close to a Coyote Brown, which is really growing on me.  Unless you need the RG for your unit requirements, I think you'd find the CB works quite well, even in the Great White North.  You can put overwhite (or other camo) covers on it as required.  Another option is to get different camo top lids and pouches, which visually blend it in to whatever color(s) as required.           

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

@Diz if you can PM me an email I can get some photos (not set up for the links etc).

The Fin ruck is way too tall for belt kit; that being said there is a PALS matrix on the belt so the idea is a small/very small chest rig to wear under a smock  and the meat of the fighting load on the ruck belt and pouches.  Not ideal but part of winter warfare/doctrine is >300m away from anything and your ruck goes with you.

 

I am very open to trying new stuff; have been through basically all of the players in the game as far as rucks go and so far have stuck with this one.  Again; not having a belt kit integration is an issue as I work with a set of Dixies webbing but with that rig I run my 64 setup.

Rock on dude, always interested in what others are doing.  Especially winter warfare.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Did the run-n-gun today. First, seems to be a thing. Like, at least a dozen of them, but early days maybe? Seemed like 80% of people here were first time. Check your region.

I have no photos of me because stupid. Unless Foxdie took one as I left the start line and I didn't notice, I totally forgot to have someone take one of me when done and all mud covered. Ruck before:  

The only "bad" to the whole thing (to me): Par times. Pretty aggressive ones, so I and a lot of others didn't finish many of the courses of fire. No fun  

Good: all else. REALLY hard. I thought I knew what moving 3.1 miles in a ruck involved, but the whole thing was muddy, hilly, under pressure, crawling under stuff, sometimes crawling under stuff in ice cold streams, etc. etc. With waits for others, close on 3 hours, so I got really tapped out for energy, should have brought snacks. It is a pretty good (anecdotal) test of gear, as I got much of it caked with mud, then immersed; one crawl was deeper than expected, so my carbine, and the optics, went underwater. 

Had the first stoppage ever on my 16" midlength. Probably from cold range, having to carry it with no mag in lets mud in. Hard to clear, had to mortar it, and on the clock I did it real hard: broke loose the staking on the rcvr extension castle nut. Hand-tightened, did the rest of the course without issue. It's a test. One which scope caps fail! Not me, but this is just one station, and just those not yet claimed (others had been there, I found another!). Push on scope caps pull off also.

No other issues. Nothing broke, lost, failed, stuck, etc. I did a good chunk of one stage's run (through the woods, sliding down hills...) with an M4 mag in a .308 10-speed without retention, by accident, and didn't loose it. Happy about that. 

On topic: The ruck was awesome. Did the whole thing with my "jungle" rig as described there and the DG16 over it. As shown in the snowy day above. Had to skip a couple obstacles as the ruck sticks out a lot, or I am weak, but I did a lot of other climbing, shimmying, running, sliding, etc. with it on. No problem in positional shooting, in carbine or handgun. A bit of an issue once getting a the stock on the shoulder as the angle left nothing but shoulder straps, which are so padded nothing would stick. 

Little bit of shoulder soreness from carrying all day, probably some failure of integration with LBE straps, as left hurts more than right. Could be all from carbine carry strap as it's just bearing on my neck a lot. 

No rattles, no wobbles, not even a snag on the ruck, when running through and under brambles. And I got the sling on the carbine so stuck once I almost fell over. The Crossfire guys got a lot of details right I don't even know, as it was really slick for this. 

 

TJ was a slacker (gamer? and wore some assault pack or other due to the obstacles so will have no report of his own on the ruck. But he expressed some regrets as shoulders alone is a lot of weight for the 50# he had in it. 

 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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There are collectors, and then there are practitioners...

That’s kinda badass Shoob.  Well done.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Right on dude, good job.  

One question.  You tell me whatcha think.  So you have to shoot n stuff with ruck on?  Your comment about ruck straps n shit in the way leads me to believe you weren't dropping rucks before firing stages?  

I'm thinking the way the DG-16 was designed was that you dump rucks on contact.  Hard to maneuver much less shoot in a full sized ruck like that.  

Was the course designed more for those dudes in assault packs, versus a patrol moving overland in full sized rucks?

Like to hear more on your thoughts.  50 lbs seems a bit much, if that's just ruck weight, versus ruck and belt kit or PC/chest rig weight.  I try and keep my whole load around that weight, so the ruck is around 35.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

On strap integration.  Been fighting that one a long time.  These past couple of weeks have been frustrating.  I've been trying to make low profile straps work, so the ruck straps can do their thing.  But I'm gonna go the other way and pad up the belt straps because I think they end up taking a lot of the weight.  Thoughts?  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Right on dude, good job.  

One question.  You tell me whatcha think.  So you have to shoot n stuff with ruck on?  Your comment about ruck straps n shit in the way leads me to believe you weren't dropping rucks before firing stages?  

I'm thinking the way the DG-16 was designed was that you dump rucks on contact.  Hard to maneuver much less shoot in a full sized ruck like that.  

Was the course designed more for those dudes in assault packs, versus a patrol moving overland in full sized rucks?

Like to hear more on your thoughts.  50 lbs seems a bit much, if that's just ruck weight, versus ruck and belt kit or PC/chest rig weight.  I try and keep my whole load around that weight, so the ruck is around 35.  

I'm going to write up a post for the event we did yesterday so I don't derail this DG-16 thread too much. 

But to answer a few direct questions:

The division that @shoobe01 and I were in called for having at least 40 pounds of gear/ammo when you cross the finish line and you can NOT dismount any gear at any time during the event (to include before shooting a COF).

The range posted that we were going to be crawling through culverts, negotiating a slack line, climbing an 8' wall, etc so I opted for the Eagle Yote on the back of my Bush Boar to keep my profile as slim as possible knowing that 50 pounds at the beginning of the event was going to suck.

At the end of the day, the course is really a race with guns vs a patrol event so it's a balance of speed and shooting ability. For me personally, I don't run to compete in the match, but use the events as a validation for gear and just the shear fun of getting out in the woods with obstacles and 2 Gun style COFs.

More to come in a separate thread. 

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good Glock at your side, kid.

And to extend what TJ said, you have to wear the ruck the whole time in this class, in this event. This works for me as if unexpected contact while moving, trying to fight though an enemy force, etc.

(For the event, I wanted to run my actual gear more than do well at the event, so went with the big ruck even though I had to skip a couple obstacles; you are totally allowed to skip things, just for a time penalty).

Sure, at an objective for a planned attack you would drop the ruck and fight from your LBE, so that's why the worry about integration with the two; you need to have a separate LBE, that's already on so easy to transition as well. 

And... why I am only SO worried about reaching every pouch easily when the ruck is on top. Ideally there's a team with you to help, or you can take a moment to drop the ruck, get more stuff out, and reorganize. 

Traditionally, we've totally dropped rucks for any enemy contact, but partly as they are a pain to fight out of. While the extra 50# is tiring, with better rucks it is doable. The DG16 is exemplary in this regard. Kneeling, prone, leaning, braced, sitting in a structure, etc. all worked like I wasn't wearing anything, except I was heavier and had a big growth on the back. 

Diz posted:

...But I'm gonna go the other way and pad up the belt straps because I think they end up taking a lot of the weight.  Thoughts?  

I am not sure I follow. Pad up the LBE belt? Why? 

Personally, my only strap integration issues now are: 

  • LBE shoulders — I think the BFG shoulders are bunching, so digging into me a bit even with nothing on them. Thinking of replacing them, with home-sewn ones like those on the Hellcat, my favorites. 2" webbing with 1" webbing sewn across them for stiffness. Flat, load distributing, without padding. Thinking of even using seatbelt webbing for the wide as (while a tidge heavier) it's stiffer, and the slickness should help keep from snagging. 
  • LBE shoulder equipment — I like several things there, but for much movement, it doesn't work so I have had to pull everything. Thinking harder, I do pretty much always run a ruck or assault pack, so I can put that stuff on the shoulders of the packs. 
  • Ruck shoulder adjustments — They run between some pouches, so are hard to grab and loosen or tighten. Not sure what, but need to work on it. 

But everything else works great. E.g. 

  • I STILL have a visceral feeling that I preferred the nearly-non-padded contoured Kifaru belt, but I have found that unlike my experience with other padded belts going back 35 years, that I don't have to re-tighten the DG belt ever. Nice. 
  • I can dismount the DG16 without loosening shoulder straps. Not sure why, but it's super nice, one step I don't need to take so is easier/quicker to mount/dismount. Also means the shoulder adjustment is a bit less critical, as an adjustment, not a part of the don/doff process. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Ok cool thanks.  Well, on the belt shoulder strap thing.  I used to be all about low profile, lightly padded straps, that would fit under the ruck straps.  This works pretty well up to maybe 10 lbs or so.  When you load up with 12 mags, and/or frags, smokes, canteens and "brew kit", you are pushing 15 lbs+.  So now I am struggling to find a harness design that not only supports this weight, but additional weight from the ruck sitting on the pouch shelf in back.  

The DG-16 is the first ruck I've found that supports a military load, and not beat you to death with it.  Now I want to find an optimal belt kit that will work with it.  More on that in another thread.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

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