A Game-Changer: The DG-16 ruck

Yeah man if you like the classic windproof smock, which is much lighter than the issue stuff these days, you will love what JJ's has done.  If you're familiar with the PCU Level 5 "softshell" jacket ORC made (block zero and 1), it's the same kind of light weight "Scholler" type material.  Tough but very breathable.  And exposed Canadian buttons.  Very ally.  

Speaking of JJ's, yeah their jungle ruck would fit nicely on the DG-16 frame.  They use the 1606, so their bag is totally compatible with the DG.   Would not be as tied in as a Crossfire bag, but would be a significant upgrade nonetheless.  About like I'm doing with the modified LBT bag; top sleeve and two tabs per side, plus if you rig the top lid straps around the frame before threading through the bottom molle and on up, you get two additional attachment points on bottom at no extra charge.   Would not surprise me if some of the lads running around in Borneo did not make this upgrade.  

 

Diz posted:

Yeah man if you like the classic windproof smock, which is much lighter than the issue stuff these days, you will love what JJ's has done.  If you're familiar with the PCU Level 5 "softshell" jacket ORC made (block zero and 1), it's the same kind of light weight "Scholler" type material.  Tough but very breathable.  And exposed Canadian buttons.  Very ally.  

 

 

Ah- good.  Some others I bought are a mite 'industrial'

Thanks.

Linz posted:
Diz posted:

On smocks, I love my Jay Jays old school, lightweight smock.  For your consideration when replacement is needed.

Oddly, Crossfire sell something like one.

Will look at J-J's offering.

 

But it won't be in CADPAT!  My DZ smock is doing well...now I'm retired...not much use for it...tease, no you can't have it.  Frankly (I know we had a big discussion thread on smocks) I found myself using my issue goretex rain coat more often despite the smock being lighter, less-bulky, less stiff, better pockets etc...Heavy rain is heavy rain and the smock just didn't manage well in those west coast conditions.  

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

FourNinerZero posted:

 

I'd love to see how a '64 pattern jump ruck rigs to the DG16 frame. 

Just for clarity, this terminology is usually instantly recognized by a Canadian infantryman but is gibberish to most others.  Our 1964 pattern rucksack is based on the US, Vietnam era "light weight" ruck (often seen in pics of 101 AB Div and 173 AB Bde).  The "valise" is essentially a nylon stuff bag for stowing the various parts of our arctic sleeping bag systems.  It is strapped to the frame above the main bag - typically with owner-added A7 A cargo straps.  We often call it the "jump ruck" as we discovered the newly issued-1982 pattern ruck that replaced it in 85 was so crappy (who does trials on this shit, anyway?) that it couldn't be jumped without the frame folding up or falling apart.  Often the damage occurred while rigging for a jump where the frame could be damaged merely by cinching up the H harness straps on the PELS...As a result, the Airborne Regt reverted to the 64 ruck.  Our CO in 3PPCLI demanded that our whole bn have the frames made available to us before going to Ft Ord in 89.  (we thought they were rare like hen's teeth, but he managed to have 500 brand new frames delivered...).  Many still use it to this day.  I still have mine issued in 1983...

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

Post pics of the 64 pattern if you can.  I think I know what you're talking about but want to make sure.    

On smocks, it really depends.  In northern Europe, where you have this shitty drizzle and little breeze a good portion of the time, they are golden.  In the Pac Northwest, where it rains like a cow pissing on a flat rock, eh, maybe not so much.  If you are humping a ruck, generating a lot of heat, they work well.  If you are sitting on your ass, in the pouring rain, not so much.  But I'm sure this has all been covered before.  

The thing to remember is we all tend to cling to our issued kit, to one extent or another, because it's familiar and we know how it works.  Trying out new stuff is risky, expensive, and generally an all around pain in the ass.  But these days, there have been significant advances in LBE, clothing, and boots, that bear looking at.      

Diz posted:

Post pics of the 64 pattern if you can.  I think I know what you're talking about but want to make sure.       

First, the US "light weight" ruck of Vietnam era.  Note the buckles/pouch fasteners are all standard metal.  Bag is nylon.

 

mceclip0

Canadian C2 basic ruck frame and straps (reverse view from the US one above).  Note buckles are plastic.  This is "as issued" like I got in 83.  Once away from the school environment and in a unit, almost all the straps are stripped away and replaced with more functional ones.

The complete 64 pattern ruck with the valise strapped on to the frame.  This is pretty much what was issued except the owner has rigged a para cord grab handle. Looks like some cheesy knife stuck in the straps at top.  Note the Canadian pouch fasteners have replaced the metal ones.  The bag is of a rubberised material vice the nylon.  In arctic ops, the ruck bottom was left outside of the tent and only valises brought in. They would contain: black rubber pneumatic air mattress; 2 X part arctic sleeping bag (inner and outer bags); flannel liner for same; arctic hood; ablution kit, change of socks and underwear; dry mukluk liners and insoles (the ones from the day were hung to dry inside the tent) and rubber "sippers" for wear in the tent and outside for toilet breaks.

 

Heavily modified version of the ruck as described by Four Niner Zero. The only original item would be the frame.  Enterprising businesses produce after market bags, valises, pouches, waist straps, shoulder straps etc.

mceclip3

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

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OK gotcha, yeah I ran that ruck (with nylon bag) on Okinawa, up in the NTA (Northern Training Area).  We called it the "jungle" ruck.  It is very similar to the newer polymer frames of today, in that you need a series of straps to tie everything on/down with.  Since we didn't need a big space for a sleep system we often put canteen or ammo pouches up top.  The two bag concept, with separate sleep system, was carried forward with the original Molle ruck.  Was not very popular, soon replaced by the Large Molle ruck, which combined the sleep system back into the bag.

Yeah I get it, the way you guys are set up, makes sense to have two separate bags, when operating in artic conditions, out of squad tents.  Very different from us in triple canopy jungle, with a poncho and liner.  No tent required (sometimes a "basha" strung overhead).  We slept in a "wagon wheel" defensive position, with your ruck in front of you, as a pillow, or rifle rest.

So yeah, very much depends on your terrain and weather.  

But to your question, yeah I think you could find a way to secure it to the DG-16 frame.  Would not be as good as a bag attached with tabs, but it would work.  Essentially the same way you attached it to the old frame.  Lotsa straps.        

The wait is killing me. Checked tracking, it’s in NY. It flew past me and half way around the world just to turn around to head back east. This is torture! 

Here’s a question for curiosity sacks Diz. If you’re  heading into the jungle, how would you have your pack setup? What would you take and why? Let’s say a week long patrol? Weight of kit? We’ve talked about 2nd lines for jungle use but have we touched 3rd lines yet? 

Diz posted:

OK gotcha, yeah I ran that ruck (with nylon bag) on Okinawa, up in the NTA (Northern Training Area).  We called it the "jungle" ruck.  It is very similar to the newer polymer frames of today, in that you need a series of straps to tie everything on/down with.  Since we didn't need a big space for a sleep system we often put canteen or ammo pouches up top.  The two bag concept, with separate sleep system, was carried forward with the original Molle ruck.  Was not very popular, soon replaced by the Large Molle ruck, which combined the sleep system back into the bag.

Yeah I get it, the way you guys are set up, makes sense to have two separate bags, when operating in artic conditions, out of squad tents.  Very different from us in triple canopy jungle, with a poncho and liner.  No tent required (sometimes a "basha" strung overhead).  We slept in a "wagon wheel" defensive position, with your ruck in front of you, as a pillow, or rifle rest.

So yeah, very much depends on your terrain and weather.  

But to your question, yeah I think you could find a way to secure it to the DG-16 frame.  Would not be as good as a bag attached with tabs, but it would work.  Essentially the same way you attached it to the old frame.  Lotsa straps.        

I used to refer to it as the "jungle ruck" in the US context as well.  However, I recently learned the "proper" terminology from watching a few YouTube nerd videos from obsessive collectors/reenactors.  Seems the "jungle ruck" was a specific US-made/issued interim ruck constructed very similar to the ARVN ruck...who knew?  Nerds.  They don't have the parts for the job, but, boy they sure know all the specs and details....

I wasn't asking the question about attaching the bag to the DG 16 frame, that was FourNinerZero.  He's still serving while I am retired.  I was clarifying some of his Canadian-specific terminology.

WRT the 2 bag theory.  Necessary for the way we work in the arctic.  However, we tend to be kit pigs with too much snivel gear.  When the 82 pattern ruck came on line, the sleeping system was moved to the underside of the ruck (utilizing the same valise to save money).  The configuration was such that, you had no option to swap the bags around - the main bag was "stitched" to the top of the frame utilizing eyelets and a long length of cotton cord (like a giant shoelace ...most troops replaced it with para cord).  I overheard a group of officers bitching about it.  An armoured Capt loudly stated, "the heavy part needs to be highest up...the heavy part is the valise...this is so dumb…".  I interjected with, "I agree the new ruck is stupid, however, keep in mind where the true weight comes from in war as opposed to what we carry in peace time to be comfortable.  That would be ammo, section kit, water and (if you bother) rats.  That,  truly heavy stuff, should go up top..."  I almost added a snide comment about the fact that chubby armoured Capts rarely carried a ruck anywhere.  He was not happy about being challenged by an upstart inf Lt...

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

Ha, OK, I got you guys mixed up.  

Yeah if I wuz still active, I'd damn sure get this frameset.  I would even pester the riggers to add tabs to it and do it up right.  

This thing has been jump-tested down under, so I figure it would pass muster for you guys as well.  It makes sense, cuz the frame can flex instead of breaking.  Kind of that old steel rod versus bamboo thing.

On the old training versus actual ops thing.  22F commented on this as well; we tend to have lighter shit on our day hikes or even overnight weekend shit, than on a real mission or extended patrol.  So yeah it's easy to fall into that trap.   

runningwolf posted:

The wait is killing me. Checked tracking, it’s in NY. It flew past me and half way around the world just to turn around to head back east. This is torture! 

Here’s a question for curiosity sacks Diz. If you’re  heading into the jungle, how would you have your pack setup? What would you take and why? Let’s say a week long patrol? Weight of kit? We’ve talked about 2nd lines for jungle use but have we touched 3rd lines yet? 

My thoughts here mate:

http://packsandbeyond.com/2018...g-it-marching-order/

 

I know I’ve got the forum post somewhere ‘round here, but that’s lacking pretty pictures. 

Hopefully I'm not telling you to suck eggs with this one. 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

Yeah 22F has it down.  Pretty much exactly what I'd do.  Let's say it's mid-summer, hot and humid, with rolling heavily forested terrain.  We want to do a point reconnaissance.  I want to run belt kit with a short back ruck.  So the ruck main bag would be team SOP stuff that I don't need easy access to.  Extra clothing and wash kit; extra water and ammo; main food bag for one week (one instant oatmeal, cocoa, coffee, Gatorade,  Lipton soup, PB or cheese crackers, and freeze dried main meal per day).  Plus any mission essential equipment: camera, sketch kit, sur log, hide materials, entrenching tool, etc.  

I like two long side pockets for poncho and liner; basha w/bungees; and cold/wet weather gear (windproof smock, or hardshell parka and trou, watch cap and gloves, etc.).  Also two smaller pouches on back for a cannister stove, lighter, spork, canteen and cup, and food for the day.  The top lid is tool/repair kit, spare batts, boo boo kit, etc.  So basically everything I might want quick access to during infil or exfil.

As far as the weight goes, I would try and keep it under 35 lbs.  With belt kit, you are pushing 45-50 lbs, which is the max weight I want to carry.  But as they say, wish in one hand...

Also, for hot weather, you don't need a full sleep system, or all the clothing layers, so you're saving weight there, as long as water re-supply isn't an issue.  For cold weather, add 5-10 lbs of weight/bulk.  I might consider a chest rig and long back ruck.  Especially up in the mountains.

In your case, you need to find the lightest weight stuff you can, because I know they're gonna weigh you down with another 15-20 lbs of crap.  But hopefully you will have regular resupply so you can go lighter on food and water.  So keeping the sleep system light, along with overhead cover, and clothing layers is gonna pay huge dividends.

So yeah, like you brought up, you may be able to get away with a Medium ALICE-sized bag a lot of times, especially if you get a new pouch suite with  2 long side pouches, and 2 around back.  With a Large ALICE-sized bag for longer patrols and/or colder weather.      

Some other thoughts on jungle ops.  Keeping the chest uncovered is the key to being happy, or as close to it as you're going to get.  That's why I prefer a belt kit to a chest rig, not to mention any BA.  The first things we would cache, after being dropped off, were helmets, flak jackets, and gas masks.  It simply wasn't feasible to be humping all that crap in triple canopy jungle.  Yeah they would have had my ass,  but I made an executive decision.  Then out came the do-rags and jungle boonies.  It is also a lot easier to keep sleeves rolled down, gloves on, and faces cammied, not to mention staying switched on, when the suck-factor is more manageable.  You may or may not have that option.

External frame short back ruck.  Again it's all about ventilation, as much as you can get on your back.  and something that works with your belt kit.    

Hard to beat the old poncho and poncho liner for a light weight jungle sleep system.  Just enough to keep the chill off, easy to get in and out of, easy to pack up.  Another poncho for overhead cover (when required) and you're set.

Jungle boots are important.  We had the old GI ones, which actually worked pretty good.   We would coat them inside and out with Vaseline.  This kept the leather from rotting from constant salt (or fresh) water exposure.  They need to be able to drain.  Being wet was just a given.  Thick wool socks that stand up (literally) to being wet.  Old school rag wool work well.  Something that won't collapse and wrinkle up on you.

Dry kit to sleep in.  A "jungle" shirt to wear at night.  Air out your feet.  Foot powder and dry socks overnight.  No cotton underwear.  Lots of extra socks.    

These days I'd get "tri shorts" to wear.  Along with Mennen "Power" Speed Stick (same thing as "Power Glide" at 1/4 the price).  Coat crotch, pits, even feet.  Cuts down on chafing, especially when wet and sweaty.  A&B ointment on the really raw areas.  

Lots of bug juice.  Also heard Avon "Skin So Soft" is a good repellent.

Don't ignore any cut or scratch.  Hit it with Mercurochrome (or I guess Betadine today) ASAP.  They will fester in jungle.  

Good jungle machete.  Wish I still had my Philippino Bolo.   You can build anything with bamboo.  From sleeping platforms, to rice cookers.  But stay away from the green stuff.

Food and water.  Carbs during the day for energy.  Protein at night to rebuild.  Buy #10 cans of freeze-dried, then re-package in 1-meal baggies.  Saves a lot of weight (not to mention money).  For short patrols, fold up stove and heat tabs.  For longer, cannister (or even liquid fuel).  Gator powder makes water taste much better. Brew kit absolutely essential.  Instant coffee and cocoa (ranger coffee),  plus Lipton instant chicken noodle soup, and Quaker instant oatmeal.  In me younger years, Copenhagen, moisturized with Jack Black.  Just the thing for your night watch.

Jungle boonie with cut-down brim.  Just enough to keep water out of your eyes.  

OD/tan scarf from your FAK.  Worn around neck as a sweat rag.  Also used for field expedient TQ.  

Face paint.  Important.  Get back into the habit.  Nothing shows up better than your smiling mug.                            

Diz posted:

Again it's all ots of bug juice.  Also heard Avon "Skin So Soft" is a good repellent.                   

I used it at Parris Island to keep the sand fleas away. It works OK but it has a pretty strong perfume type smell so I would think it would be a no go. 

Joined: 3/27/09          Location: Back in MA for now

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