Received an email the other day about these Level 4 plates from American Blast Systems. Anyone ever heard of this company or used these plates? Looks like the level 4 plates are independently tested at 4.5 lbs...

http://americanblastsystems.co...s-stand-alone-plate/

https://www.govx.com/p/42363/n...ing-protection-plate

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

Original Post

Today I was directed to American Blast Systems by my departments SOD commander. He recommended the 1.6lb level 3 icw plate by ABS for our unit. That plate does not stop m855 and is not NIJ certified and only "tested to the standards." 

 I still contacted ABS and spoke to a representative and he informed me that they manufacture their own plates and don't source through the likes of Hesco, TenCate, or LTC. The plates are super light, 4.5lbs is crazy for a $299 level 4 stand alone. But with a crazy price, there is generally a reason why. I just cant seem to find much info on them and there are no independent reviews floating around. Also, while they claim to manufacture their own armor, not one is NIJ certified. Personally, I am hesitant to be lured by the impressive weight and price without an established reputation, or some proof of quality. 

A 4.5 lb Level IV plate selling at $299 sets off more alarm bells than the status board at Three Mile Island.

Ask for the independent test results. If they are even half way legit, they will be happy to provide the documents.

Which ignores the bigger question: Why would you even bother looking at single hit rated L IV for LE work when there are much better L III and Special Threat plates available that protect against multiple hits of a wide variety of much more common rounds?

 

PlasticMag posted:

Cheap, lightweight, quality. Pick two.

The only "review" or "independent opinion" besides your comment above that I was able to locate came from a completely unrelated article about new Army ballistic protection solutions. The plate or manufacturer was not mentioned in the article one time and was only mentioned in the lone comment at the end of the article.

The comment was obviously an advertisement trying to draw attention to the plate in a way that every legitimate manufacturer would not consider. I consider it very similar to the many dating website advertisements polluting the web.

Makes me wonder if the two comments originated from the same source....

I second Longeye's thoughts. I posted the original post to see if anyone had more info and to generate discussion. I hadn't heard of the company until I saw it on the GovX site. They state that the plate is "multi-hit" on the website description. They also have the Chesapeake Testing lab sheet posted on the website.

LVL 4 Test sheet

However, it shows a single test shot.  They may just be a new company, but something to approach cautiously. 

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

Dude, anyone needing legit armor needs to talk to Mike at AT armor.  He is one of the best sellers out there right now because he carries established brands with certs and testing to back them up.

 

If it's not a recognised maker, don't buy it. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
third shift blows.

Joined: 2/14/08 5:28 PM.         Location: NE Illinois

The sample plate was 5.34 lbs and the test criteria were NIJ .06 (modified) whatever that means.

The L IV test is only one round. Which is part of the reason I see no value in L IV plates. The Level IV matrix has almost zero relevance to today's CONUS threats.

Buy L III or L3 ST plates from reputable vendors. Forget that L IV exists.

 I agree with Longeye's statement about Lvl 3 and ST rated plates. They are usually the best option for LE use/CONUS.

The NIJ .06 does provide for multi-hit Lvl 4 testing (up to 6 rounds, I believe), but still only requires 1 round as the minimum. Some companies rate their L4 plates as multi-hit (Hesco 4600 plates for example).  Many others use only the single hit rating as shown in the sheet. The only way to know is to look at the testing done on the plate. 

Thanks for pointing out the test plate weight. I didn't notice that on my initial look.

The NIJ "modified" usually means they conducted the test using NIJ instructions and criteria,  but not the full test battery to meet the certification which can cost over $30K and requires and over 30 test plates. Special Threat ratings on plates are often done with the "modified test. 

As I said, I was just pointing these plates out for discussion.  I am not personally purchasing a set. I also agree with Longeye's statement about using reputable vendors and purchasing from reputable manufacturers. Again, this thread was more to ask a question and generate discussion as to something else out there.

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

So who actually makes Velocity Systems PBZ plates? I just got a insane deal on a set but would love to have a spare for off duty / training. Is that plate available from another vendor at a lower price point? Are there better options out there now or are these still the "hot shit" plate on the market?

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

Velocity PBZ SA plate is the Tencate 6400A. Velocity states it is "modified." However, it is the same thickness and weight as s standard 6400. My deduction is that Velocity had it tested against .308/7.62x51(M80) since Tencate did not rate it for that.  

 

Comparable plates are the LTC 28720/Stealth and the Hesco U210.

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

JW917 thank you, good info!

As for the deal, I bought them off a guy who had ordered the newer "stand alone" PBZ's but was shipped the regular ones. Once he noticed he contacted Velocity and they said "whoops" and sent him the ones he ordered and let him keep the original plates as well...so...$650 for the pair to me. Yea...that's not gonna happen again.

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

Good deal. Just to clarify the Stand-alone PBZ plates are the Tencate 6400. I believe the ICW version is the older Tencate model. Still a good plate though. 

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

XTCBX posted:

JW917 thank you, good info!

As for the deal, I bought them off a guy who had ordered the newer "stand alone" PBZ's but was shipped the regular ones. Once he noticed he contacted Velocity and they said "whoops" and sent him the ones he ordered and let him keep the original plates as well...so...$650 for the pair to me. Yea...that's not gonna happen again.

Unless you know the dude in question personally and have shaken hands, that sounds a little sketchy.

The PBZ's were priced at $750 each dealer cost a few years ago when I got mine from Giff. I know there is some significant mark up on armor, but...

Yup, met the guy (former service who was going to do some contracting and needed quality gear) face to face. Inspected the plates. Ran SN#'s, etc...just one of those crazy deals I happened to luck into.

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

BUMP.

Well... these are supposedly the new plates for our SWAT vests.  They are super-light and thin, but the test sheet for their Level III ICW plates doesn't list M855.  If they stop the desired 5.56 and 7.62 rounds, then hooray and some guys may buy a pair for our patrol vest carriers.

So, I emailed the rep and requested the sheet for the test.

We'll see...

Does anyone make a Level III 1.6# plate that stops all the non-AP rounds even remotely  close to $300?  I currently plan on using my "expired" SWAT plates that are Protac/ Safariland Level II rifle plates on the street, but the 1.6#s gives me wood.

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

Much appreciated.

We fall directly into your first paragraph and that's why I emailed them asking for the shoot sheet on the Level III plates to hopefully see the likely suspects from 5.56 and 7.62x39.  Hopefully they were tested by an outside agency to boot.

I'm going to try and get the brakes pumped on the plates for SWAT and shelf the idea for patrol.

We'll see if they'll even give me the spec sheet.

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

Haven't posted in awhile. I switched agencies and dove in the alphabet soup. I agree with Doc! Ammo (and plates) continue to improve. Always best to look at your likely threats. 

My agency issues L3+ plates to use over 3A soft armor. They are optional, but  plates are a must in my opinion based on my AOR and mission.

I use my LTC 28720 Stealth Plates instead of the issued plates. They are rated against M855, M193, M80, and BZ at 3.85lbs each. All common threats I could face including shotgun and handgun rounds. I only wear armor on enforcement ops. Got them at a great price from Battalion Defense a couple of years ago .

Definitely research whatever you get (which is the goal of this thread) and good luck. 

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

No shot sheet was sent to my request for a test that shows any of their plates showing multi-hits of M855, M193, and the AK variants.

But.... they offered to send me a plate(s?) to shoot...

Doc- PM inbound.

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

TheTick posted:
DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

No shot sheet was sent to my request for a test that shows any of their plates showing multi-hits of M855, M193, and the AK variants.

But.... they offered to send me a plate(s?) to shoot...

Doc- PM inbound.

One of our guys had two of their plates sent to us last month.  They sent a level 3 and a level 4.  The level 4 stopped what we shot at it (308 and .223).  The level 3 not so much.  I'm not sure if the first .223 round actually went all the way through, but the back deformation was significant and blew some of the coating off.  If I recall correctly, it didn't hold up to any follow on shots.  I will ask the other guys if they remember the specifics. 

We were using 55 grain Federal .223.  I can get the exact number if you want it. 

ggammell posted:

But that 15 year ABS warranty though......

 

Amazing how they can do that when the folks on the NIJ list offer 5 IIRC.

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

Syrup posted:
TheTick posted:
DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

No shot sheet was sent to my request for a test that shows any of their plates showing multi-hits of M855, M193, and the AK variants.

But.... they offered to send me a plate(s?) to shoot...

Doc- PM inbound.

One of our guys had two of their plates sent to us last month.  They sent a level 3 and a level 4.  The level 4 stopped what we shot at it (308 and .223).  The level 3 not so much.  I'm not sure if the first .223 round actually went all the way through, but the back deformation was significant and blew some of the coating off.  If I recall correctly, it didn't hold up to any follow on shots.  I will ask the other guys if they remember the specifics. 

We were using 55 grain Federal .223.  I can get the exact number if you want it. 

ICW or stand alone?

“They were two douchebags who met in the normal course of being two douchebags.” - Sully, Third Watch

ggammell posted:
Syrup posted:
TheTick posted:
DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

No shot sheet was sent to my request for a test that shows any of their plates showing multi-hits of M855, M193, and the AK variants.

But.... they offered to send me a plate(s?) to shoot...

Doc- PM inbound.

One of our guys had two of their plates sent to us last month.  They sent a level 3 and a level 4.  The level 4 stopped what we shot at it (308 and .223).  The level 3 not so much.  I'm not sure if the first .223 round actually went all the way through, but the back deformation was significant and blew some of the coating off.  If I recall correctly, it didn't hold up to any follow on shots.  I will ask the other guys if they remember the specifics. 

We were using 55 grain Federal .223.  I can get the exact number if you want it. 

ICW or stand alone?

The level 4 was stand alone and the 3 was ICW.  Which may have led to it deforming more. 

Syrup posted:
ggammell posted:
Syrup posted:
TheTick posted:
DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

No shot sheet was sent to my request for a test that shows any of their plates showing multi-hits of M855, M193, and the AK variants.

But.... they offered to send me a plate(s?) to shoot...

Doc- PM inbound.

One of our guys had two of their plates sent to us last month.  They sent a level 3 and a level 4.  The level 4 stopped what we shot at it (308 and .223).  The level 3 not so much.  I'm not sure if the first .223 round actually went all the way through, but the back deformation was significant and blew some of the coating off.  If I recall correctly, it didn't hold up to any follow on shots.  I will ask the other guys if they remember the specifics. 

We were using 55 grain Federal .223.  I can get the exact number if you want it. 

ICW or stand alone?

The level 4 was stand alone and the 3 was ICW.  Which may have led to it deforming more. 

Copy

“They were two douchebags who met in the normal course of being two douchebags.” - Sully, Third Watch

Syrup posted:
TheTick posted:
DocGKR posted:

Full stop.

If any CONUS LE are wearing plates that are not fully tested against and certified to stop at a minimum multiple hits of both M193 and M855 fired out of a 20" 1/7 twist barrel, they are grossly wrong and putting their officers at risk.  For agencies nearby military bases and any agencies smart enough to get ahead of emerging threats, plates should also stop multiple hits of both M855A1 and M80A1. 

FWIW, 7.62x39 mm M43 mild steel core FMJ and even BZ is relatively easy to stop, as is 7.62x51mm M80 ball.

Last I looked, bad guys are not using a time machine to raid 1940's era ammo caches to load up their M1 rifles and BAR's for bank heists ala Clyde Barrow.  So why would anyone purchase LIV plates tested against an early 20th century AP threat like .30-06 M2 "black tip"?  For anyone needing true AP protection in today's world, you need to get plates designed to at least stop multiple hits of relatively modern AP threats, including M993 and M995, as well as 7N37 and 7N39 if working OCONUS--note that minimum recommendation is not even addressing the latest 21st century emerging AP threats...

No shot sheet was sent to my request for a test that shows any of their plates showing multi-hits of M855, M193, and the AK variants.

But.... they offered to send me a plate(s?) to shoot...

Doc- PM inbound.

One of our guys had two of their plates sent to us last month.  They sent a level 3 and a level 4.  The level 4 stopped what we shot at it (308 and .223).  The level 3 not so much.  I'm not sure if the first .223 round actually went all the way through, but the back deformation was significant and blew some of the coating off.  If I recall correctly, it didn't hold up to any follow on shots.  I will ask the other guys if they remember the specifics. 

We were using 55 grain Federal .223.  I can get the exact number if you want it. 

Ruh-roh, Raggy...

Was either plate the “III+ Green Tip”?

If not I’ll at least try to get one of those to shoot and... well... likely see what we all expect.

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

TheTick posted:

Ruh-roh, Raggy...

Was either plate the “III+ Green Tip”?

If not I’ll at least try to get one of those to shoot and... well... likely see what we all expect.

It was labeled as "Model: Level III ICW 1.16lbs".  So not the Green Tip plate. 

I'm glad I came across this thread as I was considering getting their 1.6lb ICW Level III plates for my external carrier. My department issues us a standard IIIA vest w/carrier. But the carrier only has pockets for standard 5"x8" trauma plates. As a result I had BCS make a carrier that was able to accept ESAPI type plates. I've been lugging around ESAPI type plates, but want to shed some weight in that department and was seriously considering this. I have a friend at a different department who bought a set of ABS plates (pretty sure it was the ICW single curve 1.6lb ones).

As soon as I saw this thread and I alerted him to the questionable integrity of these things especially since he has an AS plate carrier set up in his patrol vehicle with these things. Although he wasn't provided with a shot sheet, he did point me to the NIJ website that links you to another website for a list of NIJ compliant plates. 

https://www.justnet.org/app/tims/CPLReport.aspx

Hit "Control" + "F" key and type in "American" to jump to the row in question.

The problem is that it doesn't specify if this is the 1.6lb plate or the 3.2lb plate.

Joined: 4 April 2005                Location: South Bay Armpit

So on a quick look, it appears the ABS 1.6 lb plates are those listed in the NIJ 101.06 compliant list as it specifies ICW. Since the SA plates aren't on the list, they may just be NIJ compliant under the old standard. IIRC, the lvl 4 plates were under the old standard. 

As mentioned above, consider your likely threats. The 1.6 lb are both lvl 3 and made with UHMWPE this they will not stop M855 rounds. However, they are lightweight and neutrally boyant. 

  • The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
  • The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

- Sun Tzu -

The Art of War

Well, I attempted to take them up on their offer of plates to shoot and stated that I planned to get them shot by DocGKR.  I asked if they could ship them directly to him or if I’d have to ship them on my dime.

No dice.

Their response:

”Thank you for reaching back out to us, I spoke with my higher-ups and they informed me that we allow testing from outside sources only with Department of the State certified NIJ test labs, such as Oregon Ballistics and HP White.

Anything outside that arena is something we strictly prohibit, as the only certification testing approved by Police Departments is with NIJ.”
 
I asked if I could still have plates to shoot myself... we’ll see. 

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

Please don’t shoot yourself, plates or not, we’d miss you...

Know thy enemies, but be aware of thy friends...

 

The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back again to bondage."

TheTick posted:

Well, I attempted to take them up on their offer of plates to shoot and stated that I planned to get them shot by DocGKR.  I asked if they could ship them directly to him or if I’d have to ship them on my dime.

No dice.

Their response:

”Thank you for reaching back out to us, I spoke with my higher-ups and they informed me that we allow testing from outside sources only with Department of the State certified NIJ test labs, such as Oregon Ballistics and HP White.

Anything outside that arena is something we strictly prohibit, as the only certification testing approved by Police Departments is with NIJ.”
 
I asked if I could still have plates to shoot myself... we’ll see. 

They gave us plates to shoot. Prob not the best idea to inform them of your plan in advance.

“They were two douchebags who met in the normal course of being two douchebags.” - Sully, Third Watch

ggammell posted:
TheTick posted:

Well, I attempted to take them up on their offer of plates to shoot and stated that I planned to get them shot by DocGKR.  I asked if they could ship them directly to him or if I’d have to ship them on my dime.

No dice.

Their response:

”Thank you for reaching back out to us, I spoke with my higher-ups and they informed me that we allow testing from outside sources only with Department of the State certified NIJ test labs, such as Oregon Ballistics and HP White.

Anything outside that arena is something we strictly prohibit, as the only certification testing approved by Police Departments is with NIJ.”
 
I asked if I could still have plates to shoot myself... we’ll see. 

They gave us plates to shoot. Prob not the best idea to inform them of your plan in advance.

True, but I could not in good conscience not do exactly what was agreed upon with them.  But, they showed their ass by not wanting to send it to a reputable place to get shot. If your shit is the shit, then you shouldn’t give a shit.

Myriad of things came up for me that placed getting these plates to shoot as a low priority. The main thing that came up was a few people higher in the COC deciding that these are the plates we’re getting against my loud, repetitive, boisterous protests that it doesn’t stop M855. Period, the end. There are those amongst us that do not believe that Green Tip is a commonly owned round in the civilian world.  I almost don’t want to shoot the plates now because I know what will happen with M855 and I know that it won’t make a difference in our choice. My confidence in the plates for SWAT-duty  is already waning... I don’t need to see just how big a hole will be plugged in me.  I specifically said that I’d rather have new 5.5# plates that I know will get the job done as opposed to 1.6#s of “meh” but to no avail.

I’m most likely going to put my “expired” SWAT plates into my new SWAT vest and wear these plates in my outer-vest carrier on patrol as they’re significantly better than my current plates in there.

GGanmell- did you guys shoot these with M855?  Do I want to know what happened?

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

TT, do you have a buddy who isn't in your department that could shoot the plates with M855 and video the results and as a citizen/non affiliated internet journalist ask for comment from your Dept on the failure of their newly issued plates to stop a commonly available rifle round? 

 

Location: in SE Idaho, the birthplace of television. 

M. Wilson posted:

TT, do you have a buddy who isn't in your department that could shoot the plates with M855 and video the results and as a citizen/non affiliated internet journalist ask for comment from your Dept on the failure of their newly issued plates to stop a commonly available rifle round? 

 

Yes... but... what comes after could be ugly...

If it was just my PD, then we (I) could get the right thing done. This is a large regional team with a lot of PDs in the mix.  The head decision-maker (read: final say) is somewhat removed from breaking down doors and in his last year on the team.  It is what it is. 

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What is left when honor is lost?

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