I was considered getting on of the FN 5.7s and I wanted to gets some opinions on it before making the investment. I reconned the 5.7 forum and checked LF.net and couldn't find any.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ON THE WWAAAYYY!!! followed by OH SHIT!!! means you won't be getting that promotion.

Original Post
I shot one a couple weeks ago, it belongs to a guy I see at the range allot. He said he had just gotten it, and it was replacing his 9mm carry gun. It was fun to shoot had zero recoil was pretty damn accurate too.

I could not however see using it for anything but range plinking and I sure as hell wouldnt carry it for protection, it just did not impress me. At this range session we were shooting a whole shit load of push lawn mowers (dont ask I do not know why it was setup when I got there) from various ranges. The rounds did not penatrate the pushmower bodies, unlike 9mm, 45acp 5.56 etc.

The gun itself did not feal cheap but because its so light/plastic kinda weird in the grip it just felt like a water pistol (best way I can describe it).

Not the best review I know

Semper Fi
Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4's. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP's fired from our duty 1911's crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: "Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: "Personal Defense Weapons"”Answer in Search of a Question", Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: "Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant", AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
--Roberts G: "Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.", AFTE Journal. In Press.
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.



The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line"”what does the P90 offer that is not already available? The best uses for the P90 might be for executive protection details where the threat is expected to be wearing body armor and perhaps as a PDW for vehicle crew and pilots.
I think the Doc is trying to say that Stargate SG1 and Battlestar Galactica are not good sources for small arms recommendations....if performance means more than looks.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Yeah, I got one. Don't think I would use it for a carry gun (kinda'big) unless it was all I had. It is very flat shooting...and it hits where its pointed. Shot a GI K-pot at about 60 meters with the SS192 ball ammo and it went in one side and zinged around inside the helmet. A lot depends on the ammo you use. The ammo is fairly high in price and somewhat hard to find. The anti-gun crowd wet their pants(About the weapon/ammo) a while back so FN stopped importing the ball ammo for the civies. Someone else is starting to make it or so I'm told. I like mines...but sometimes it seems like a $700.00 paperweight. Easy to disassemble/clean. Oh, Don't get caught with any of the (SS190?) black-tip AP...Its for LE and Mil only as per ATF ruling. Would I carry it to combat/war zone? You can bet your ass I would, Just my 2 cents worth
To Seek...To Strive...And Not to Yield !
quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
I think the Doc is trying to say that Stargate SG1 and Battlestar Galactica are not good sources for small arms recommendations....if performance means more than looks.


+1!
------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers


The answer to 1984 is 1776.

"I prefer evil sits in daylight for all to see rather than be hidden, forgotten about and possibly repeated." -Consigliere
You also have to look at ammo availability/cost. I just got an e-flyer from Natchez advertising 5.7mm for "only" $19.99 for a box of 50. Regular price is $29.99/50. Ammo price is a big reason keeping me from considering the purchase of a FiveSeveN.

Mike
__________________________ War is an elaboration and codfication of a much purer activity, which is being alive. Sometimes, at the most basic level, to be alive you must stop other people being alive.
I have heard talk of cops on bikes carrying the P90 due to its size. Seeing as how i believe it would be somewhat difficult to carry a shotgun.

------------------------------
Goddamnit, I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd do any good.

 

Broke dick airplanes means a tax paid vacation!

A friend and I were RO's at an IDPA match this fall. After we were done, he pulled a borrowed FN Five-Seven out of his range bag with a couple boxes of ammo. We then ran each other thru the IDPA stage, which included a few pepper poppers. It felt like a rim-fire (little to no recoil). The other noticable thing was that we could not trigger the pepper popper targets... ;-)

I was considering buying one more as a gimmick than anything else. After that, I decided my money was better spent on other things.

YMMV.

-Paul D.

Londonderry, NH 

I worked a shooting where the victim had three holes on his left side starting in torso, and ending in left thigh. All were through and throughs. The wounds themselves weren't much to look at....like .22 holes, both entry and exit. The victim kept saying it was a handgun, but everything pointed to a rifle, up to and including how he described it. It wasn't until we found the casings that we figured out it was an FN......side note: Vic was being deliberately vague because he left almost two ounces of crack in his vehicle, and didn't want us to find it. The car took six or seven hits....all went through the car completely.
It's better to walk the path, then just know the path....
quote:
Originally posted by Mike11b:
I worked a shooting where the victim had three holes on his left side starting in torso, and ending in left thigh....The victim kept saying...



***When the victim of a three-round hit shooting is sitting there calmy discussing wound ballistics with you after the fact, it's probably a good sign that the perp's gun wasn't up to par...

Smile


Kel

"Don't make the mistake of assuming that you and I share any of the same value systems."

- Kel

"Overconsumption and a lust for more only leads to unhappiness, strife, and a burden on this earth. You can't enjoy this creation if you think you can own it."  - Again, Me, aka, Kel.

Mike11b what type of ammo was used? We could not get a single penatration at five paces on metal, what kinda car was it?

I'm going to show the guy at the range this post, maybe he will switch back to his glock. Like I said I was not very impressed with the gun.

Semper Fi
quote:
The best uses for the P90 might be for executive protection details where the threat is expected to be wearing body armor and perhaps as a PDW for vehicle crew and pilots.


That is basically who would be using the 5.7 round anyway. Because of the low recoil, a higher hit percentage can be achieved. Follow up shots would also be faster. The larger mag capacity is also a plus. I do see that the rounds might not be adequate in a lot of situations, but the 5.7 does arguably have a niche.

Doc what do you think of the other rounds (not just the SS190) available for the five-n-seven and the P90?
quote:
Originally posted by Mike11b:
I worked a shooting where the victim had three holes on his left side starting in torso, and ending in left thigh. All were through and throughs. The wounds themselves weren't much to look at....like .22 holes, both entry and exit. The victim kept saying it was a handgun, but everything pointed to a rifle, up to and including how he described it. It wasn't until we found the casings that we figured out it was an FN......side note: Vic was being deliberately vague because he left almost two ounces of crack in his vehicle, and didn't want us to find it. The car took six or seven hits....all went through the car completely.


It seems to do the same thing to Jaffa armor,
too.

*sorry... wife broke out her SG-1 box-sets for the weekend. *sigh*
------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers


The answer to 1984 is 1776.

"I prefer evil sits in daylight for all to see rather than be hidden, forgotten about and possibly repeated." -Consigliere
pesty.....never found out if they were the AP rounds or the regular over the counter stuff. I'm just a patrol dog....Detectives never specified the round later, although we got an officer safety alert regarding it.
The car was a early 90's Benz....from t he looks of it, the shooter was right outside the driver's door, and fairly tall as the bullet holes were on the roof, went through the driver's seat, floorboard, and exited.
Based on the fact that numbnuts lived after taking three hits, I wasn't impressed with the "stopping power", but the velocity piece seems right on....
It's better to walk the path, then just know the path....
The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake for all the reasons Doc stated. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there.

The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes.

We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more Wink
I have a couple 5.7 handguns.

I have only used S192 hollowpoint/training round.

I have only shot coyotes here in NV with them and also with my standard 9mm Glocks (various Hydroshok and Winchester hollowpoints). I do not retrieve the rounds, I just have noticed the secondary wound channel. Whether the bullets come apart (fragmant) upon impact is unknown.

The S192 is a far more devestating wound than the 9mm hollowpoints. I can't explain why it's damage is so severe compared to the 9mm.

I carry my 5.7 CCW all the time and feel that the 20 round capacity, weight, recoil and accuracy are an additional plus. I am 100% confident with it as a carry choice.

Just my $.02

V
OUT

100 proof women, 90 proof whiskey, and 14 Karat gold. Amigo, you wrote my epitaph. - Burt Lancaster, The Professionals

I shot them (P90) in 95-96 timeframe (I think?) when we were looking for a PDW to replace the MP-5's.

They were fun to shoot and controllable but no one was willing to go to a nonstandard round with questionable ballistics properties and no proven track record. The M-4 it seemed was a better investment.

Even as a niche weapon it wouldn't get a second look from me. There are to many other wepons that have a better track record. I don't mind a little more recoil for better stopping potential.
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Mustang:
So would it be practical to rechamber the P90 for 5.56? Or not worth the effort?

No. Neither the magazine arrangement nor the action would permit it, as the 5.7x28 is so much shorter than the 5.56x45.

The nearest you can get to a P90 in 5.56mm is the FN F2000.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
quote:
Originally posted by Timmy:
What Tony said is correct. I'll add to that the P90 frame will not stand up to larger rounds.


That sucks. I think a P90 in 9mm or .40 would be the cat's ass; compact, high cap mags and still with decent hitting power.
Using SS190 and a suppressor will lead to cracks in the frame around the barrel support lock (takedown button). This is a result of the increase in back pressure. Larger high velocity rounds would have a similar effect even without a suppresor.

It would take a dramatic redesign of the weapon to allow it to shoot a high velocity rifle round.
I love my FiveseveN. I have heard all the debates on stopping power and it's "cop killing" design. For me it just works. The ss192 ammo does not fragment, it tumbles creating a large wound cavity. The ss196 & 197 however, do. I was reading a post on one of the other forums I post on and one of the members described a badger he shot with ss196 as "a bomb had went off inside it". Once you fire one you'll be hooked.

The one hope for the vicious, is to not hope for mercy. If you can read this, thank a teacher. Since it's in English, thank a soldier

Here's a copy and paste from the FiveSeven Forum.

Look at the muzzle energy figures...
20 rounds of mosquitos in the magazine...

I'll stay with my 10mm for now.

Muzzle energy:

|---------------P90-------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|

SS90 |-----(400 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(330 ft. lbs)---|
SS190 |----(390 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---|
L191 |-----(390 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---|
SS192 |----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SB193 |----(120 ft. lbs)---------(160 ft. lbs)------------(80 ft. lbs)----|
T194 |-----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SS195 |----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SS196 |----(290 ft. lbs)---------(340 ft. lbs)------------(230 ft. lbs)---|
SS197 |----(340 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(255 ft. lbs)---|



Dave

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

quote:
Originally posted by steve--oh:
quote:
Originally posted by diablodawg:
That sucks. I think a P90 in 9mm or .40 would be the cat's ass; compact, high cap mags and still with decent hitting power.


So you mean a glock?


The P90 Carbine, not the pistol.
I've done my time under fire as well. There are people out there that will say the 5.56 NATO round is not effective enough. I say bull. And my experience comes from 6 combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen the effects of most every roun from .22 up to .50 cal. And my definition of a "large" wound cavity, is one large enough to get the job done.

The one hope for the vicious, is to not hope for mercy. If you can read this, thank a teacher. Since it's in English, thank a soldier

Never mind then you got it all figured out. For those still intrested in listening to real world experience with the P90 and SS190 ammo. The round is far less effective than 5.56 and many other widely used defensive loads. You want to wrap your life around the 5.7/P90 system knock yourself out. I am not trying to be a dick to you but my agency has more operation experience with the system then ANY and our verdict is it is far less effective than advertised.

Take care,
I'm not trying to be a dick either. I'm simply using comparative analysis. I trust your opinion in the matter as you have obviously fired the P90. I, myself, never have. I am simply comenting on the Fiveseven pistol and the 5.7x 28 mm that this thread started out talking about. Also I have never posted anything to contradict your views, or about the P90.

The one hope for the vicious, is to not hope for mercy. If you can read this, thank a teacher. Since it's in English, thank a soldier

I carry the 5.7 on my department and alos just finnised Friearms Instr. course with it. I cant say enough good things about it! It does exactely what it is suppose to! No over penetration, being the round stands up when it penetrates, it will key hole through sheet rock. It will penetrate the first layer of body armor but not the back plate. which is the reason we went to it. We're finding alot of s*#t'ums are wearing body armor. But this also depends on the ammo used!

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