With these two quotes in mind,
 
Originally Posted by RyanScott:

"I will say however that if I hunted in the woods with a 30-06 I would load a 200gr bullet at 2500-2700fps and happily shoot that at every sort of big game until I died."

And,

"Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess."

Oscar Wilde

 

I have decided to, as they say "Kick it up a notch." I'm going to try Doubletap 200 grain Nosler Partition reported MV 2650.9fps.

I used the Beartooth bullets calculator posted by Wild Willy on 30-06 thread, allowing for the loss of velocity in my 18 inch barrel vs most factory specs using a 22 inch bbl. Taking this info and all the research and first hand intel offered here, I felt the larger bullet would reduce my margin of error from any possible anomaly, such as placement slightly off due to animal movement or deflection from unseen objects.

In other words Murphy's Law rules my life. All things being equal I'd rather come across a mid-sized bear while carrying a larger bullet, then a real trophy while carrying a marginal bullet. 

Guys, thanks again for all the help.

Steve

 

*By the way, if anyone is carrying or contemplating Lightfield 12ga Sabot slugs be aware, one failed to adequately penetrate on a Whitetail Doe, last year. Deer recovered, slug penetrated approx 2 inch, total destruction on near side lung. No other significant damage. Spoke to company tech, who indicated satisfaction with that performance.

"Life is Good!"

I have friend how runs a guide service outside of Cody, WY. He runs packhorse trips to his elk camp. Most everyplace he goes is grizzly country. In camp, they keep several 12-gauge shotguns loaded with slugs. On the hunt, he carries a .375 H&H Magnum. He gives it to one of the hunters who stands guard while they field dress and quarter the elk. Grizzly have learned to run to the sound of gunfire for a free meal of the offal. 

If a bear is sighted, it will already be fired up, hence the .375

 

The Wy Game & Fish's Grizzly wildlife biologist in Pinedale, WY carries a Ruger 77 in .375 Ruger because he can hand load it to higher velocities than the old H&H cartridge.

 

IMHO, there's no such thing as too much gun for any kind of bear. Oh, and... stand by...

Park Rangers in South Lake Tahoe have had to ask people not to take selfies with the bears. I wish they'd send these people out to Wyoming. Our bears could use the extra protein.

Joined: 1/14/08                   Location: Central Wyoming

Just a note, coastal brown bears have learned that a shot during dear season may mean a meal.

They have literally snatched dear as they are falling from the shot.

Switching ammo may not be an option.

Bears during hunting season are trying to fatten up before hibernation and will sometimes do anything to get extra protein to make it through the winter.

Art

This story is also on Todd Green's pistol forum in the thread called "Alaska Deer Hunting". IT said the rifles used were a .338 and a .30/06 and that the pistol was a .454.
Originally Posted by Dorsai:

http://www.adn.com/article/201...econd-bear-encounter

 

Man injured, 2 bears killed after mauling near Kodiak

Tegan Hanlon

 

Joined: 10/06/06          Location: SW OH

Admittedly I didn't read the previous responses, but I think the whole discussion is ridiculous on its face.  I don't think you can teach a bear even simple math, much less the concepts of drag, gravity wind drift, and how they affect bullet flight.  You guys are wasting your time trying to teach them anything.  

 

Now gorillas, I bet you could teach them them the basics of ballistics.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Don't underestimate the learning ability of bears (really). But, be sure you don't run out of treats while you're teaching them. They tend to loose interest in the subject matter as soon as the treats stop and begin to look for alternative goodies to snack on.

 

Dave

"Keep that cheap, wail'n slut quiet!" A.J. Maggott

People in sleeping bags are just like pigs-in-blanket, for a bear.

Always go with a partner, spray them with bacon flavored PAM and tell them its mosquito repellent, end of bear problem for you...for them, not so much.

You can always put a baloney sandwich under their sleeping bag.

Don't have as many friends as I used to and no one will go out in the woods with me anymore...!!

Art

Being in agreement on this statement and others posted in this thread, and knowing that 556 is not optimal would you or others also find the 70gr TSX a good choice should someone need to hit a bear? Something else I've also thought about would maybe the Mk318 be a decent choice too due to the copper shanks ability to sometimes penetrate much deeper than RA556B/LE223T3 and even 70gr TSX albeit the Mk318 has a much smaller final diameter...?
 
Originally Posted by DocGKR:

There is a reason Alaskan guides typically run 12 ga. shotguns with Brenneke slugs or short .45-70's with deep penetrating loads to protect their clients.  Those or a rifle in .338 or larger would make optimal defense weapons against BIG bears.  Obviously, in a pinch you use what you have.  If you don't have the above weapons, then bonded loads in .30 cal and smaller rifles are the way to go for hunting/defending against larger animals.  5.56 mm would NOT be my first choice for a bear rifle in Alaska and skip handguns as a primary wilderness defensive tool...

 

Lower 48 state Black bears are a different story.  They are not like BIG Alaskan or Canadian bears.  12 ga is still great, but you could also get by with a bonded .30 cal rifle load or likely even a .44 Mag if necessary. 5.56 mm would still not be my first choice for a black bear, but if it is all I had, I'd want 62 gr TBBC (T3) or 64 gr Nosler bonded (Win RA556B) in the rifle.

 

Superman Hall killed a very big Polar Bear with a 5.56 using M193.

He survived, others have been badly hurt doing it.

IMHO, you would need to have ice water in your veins and excellent marksmanship skills.

Barnes TTX would help or Federal TBBC.

I wouldn't try it with anything other than a small black bear.

To simulate a charge take a large truck tire, paint lines across the tread in white about the size of a 3x5 card, then have someone roll it down a hill at you and try to put three rounds into one of the lines.

If the bear was resting or just doing their bear thing you might be able at very close range to put a few into their head, once they start moving and have located you, you are screwed.

Your choice, there are much better calibers for bear.

Art

 

Inside of 50 yards, my benelli m4 loaded with 12ga, 1 3/8 oz, hard antimony, sharp shouldered, brenneke "maximum barrier penetrator" slugs at 1650fps would be my first choice.

 

"only" 42.5" of penetration in ordinance gel.

 

Outside of 50yards, my 375 h&h loaded with TBBC, partition, or monolithic bullet like TSX or GMX.

 

 

 

 

http://www.foxnews(DOT)com/science/2014/11/24/gps-study-tracks-grizzlies-as-follow-hunters/

This GPS system is a real bear.

Eight Montana grizzly bears have been outfitted with GPS trackers in an ongoing study that could bring some unnerving news to hunters.

The study is aimed at bolstering the theory that grizzlies, which can be as stealthy as they are ferocious, stalk hunters from as close as the length of a football field in order to steal their prey. Already, data has shown at least one grizzly following oblivious elk hunters almost from the moment they left the parking lot, according to the Billings Gazette. Scientists believe the bear may have been following the humans in hopes of getting to a fallen elk before they did.

"Bears opportunistically scavenge carcasses throughout the active season and commonly usurp kills of other predators, such as cougars and, since their reintroduction in 1995, gray wolves,” stated a report last year by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team. “Remains left by hunters also provide grizzly bears with meat, and bears are attracted to areas outside of national parks when these remains become available during the fall.”

The Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team, part of the U.S. Geological Survey, started the project over the summer, by tagging the grizzlies in the Grand Teton National Park. Next, the study team asked elk hunters to voluntarily carry some 100 GPS units that track their routes.

In the most clearly detailed example, a group of hunters turned on their GPS devices moments after leaving a parking area at around 6 a.m. When scientists analyzed their movements later and contrasted them with those of a nearby grizzly, it became clear the bear was tailing them.

The bruin stayed downwind of the hunters, at one point coming within 100 yards of them as they moved around a lake. At around noon, the bear bedded down for a nap, but easily picked up the hunters’ trail again when it awoke, according to the report. Grizzly bears’ have a sense of smell seven times greater than that of a bloodhound, and 100 times that of a human by some estimates. Grizzlies also possess a Jacobson’s organ in the roof of their mouth that can detect heavier moisture-borne odors.

Scientists tracked the bear as it appeared to smell an elk carcass from 4 miles away, follow the scent and even wound up swimming across the lake to get to it, according to the report. They also observed that the bear made some evasive maneuvers, possibly to avoid an untagged grizzly competing for the same meat.

“The temporary movements away from the carcass could be indicative of this particular bear being ‘pushed off’ the carcass by a more dominant bear,” said Frank van Manen, of the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team based in Bozeman.

Grizzlies have been known to steal the prey of hunters and fishermen alike. Animals such as elk may travel for miles after being wounded, leaving hunters the task of tracking them even as bears may be doing the same.

So attuned to the movements of hunters are the bears that scientists believe they may even listen for the sound of gunshots, knowing that they signal a meal to be scavenged. Grizzlies are known scavengers, and officials noted there have been cases of the mighty bruins attacking hunters as they dressed elk in the field. Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks now requires successful bison hunters outside of Yellowstone National Park to move carcasses and gut piles 200 yards away from homes, roads and trails to lessen the chances of human-bear interactions, according to the Gazette.

 

Remember when in the wild you aren't always at the top of the food chain. Think my old 12 ga will be tagging along Elk Hunting

Originally Posted by redneckemt:
In the most clearly detailed example, a group of hunters turned on their GPS devices moments after leaving a parking area at around 6 a.m. When scientists analyzed their movements later and contrasted them with those of a nearby grizzly, it became clear the bear was tailing them. The bruin stayed downwind of the hunters, at one point coming within 100 yards of them as they moved around a lake. At around noon, the bear bedded down for a nap, but easily picked up the hunters’ trail again when it awoke, according to the report.


The scariest set of bear tracks I've ever seen came while elk hunting above Bondurant, Wyoming. We had finished for the day and walked back on a Forest Service road. On that muddy road, we found: the tracks of a horse, the tracks of a man leading the horse, a dog...

 

... and the biggest set of bear tracks that I have ever seen in my life. We supposed that the guy was packing out a couple elk quarters. The bear followed them all the way down to the campground where we were tenting. It was not a happy evening when we got to camp, but we didn't have any problems.

 

It's amazing how quiet and spooky big critters can be in a forest. Elk, moose and bears can dance rings around you and you'll never notice them. Damn forest ninjas!

Bear are, contrary to popular opinion, one of the smarter critters, just below the primates in intelligence.

They are also incredibility fast and strong.

However they seek to maximize their chances of a successful attack (like most predators) and can be thrown off by backtracking on them.

We humans are lucky that most bear have an aversion to us and hesitate to attack.

I have seen sign that showed I had as many as three different bears tracking me at one time.

Luckily their eyesight is poor, they may try to get closer to get a better look and better scent of that stinky little creature before an attack.

Even with a firearm you are not at the top of the food chain, forget that and you become a statistic.

Be very aware of your surroundings in bear territory, the fauna will eat you if you aren't.

Art

 

Kind of a necro, but it looks like Florida's going back to allowing a bear season.  We have relatively small black bears (biggest I've ever seen is about 500 pounds). What's going to be interesting is that the areas that are proposed for the hunt are relatively close to urban areas and some of them are in my county. A couple people have been attacked, but each one is easily traceable to their behavior. (feeding, getting between mom and babies) I suspect this hunting season, if it passes, will be a cluster of epic proportions, mainly because the areas are close enough to residences that don't normally hear gunfire to hear gunfire. I anticipate a lot of calls.

 

I've dealt with bears as a patrol deputy-almost always on trash night. They generally run away if you get up close and yell at them. I do, however, bring out the 870 with slugs when I do so.

"Hold my beer and watch this"

I also am not saying 223 is a suitable for bear; but many of natives in Alaska have taken bears of all kinds with mini 14s and AR's with cheap 55gr ball. i don't know of any stories of defensive shootings, but many of them shooting a trouble bear or purposefully hunting one. i know more than one Trooper who have shot them with AR's.

One story was two Troopers went to kill a wounded bear. The primary had a 12ga with slugs and he with an AR. the bear took 2 slugs in the chest/shoulders and took off. The back up Trooper put a 223 ball round behind its ear at 100 yards. So once again shot placement reigns supreme.

The gene pool needs some chlorine.

 

Joined: 4/7/03   Location: Renton, WA - Barrow , AK

I know of moose and bear that have been killed with .22lr.  After a kid I knew was busted for shooting and killing a moose with a .22.  An old Indian regularly hunted and killed moose and bear with a .22.  NOT DEFENSIVE SHOOTING.  He'd put a round or two in the side and puncture a lung.  Then he'd follow the animal quietly until it finally keeled over and died.  Usually took a couple of hours.  He said that it wasn't very noisy and for the animal was more like a sting, so they didn't get upset and active.  But the lung hit would bleed them slowly and surely.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

A lot of folks have used what I consider to be a marginal caliber to kill bear and moose, then one day they go missing and are later found...if they are ever found, stomped, trampled, gored or partially eaten.

It is like dodging cars on foot in traffic, it works until it doesn't and then you  are maimed or dead.

Big difference between hunting an animal and facing down that same animal when it is aware and angry.

Native hunters many times fire into herds of caribou, then just take the ones that fall close to them and let the rest wander off and die.

Contrary to the "noble savage image" they are very wasteful of game and will kill black bear to get their gall bladders or caribou for their antlers which they trade for booze and drugs.

If you travel the radius of snow machine range or atv range from most villages these days most of the game has been hunted out.

Much is shot and left to rot.

You still need a decent weight bullet, well constructed, properly placed to stop a bear.

If you are successfully attacked they will piss on you to tenderize you, let you molder partially buried and then come back to tear of chunks...if you think you can play dead while that is happening, more power to you.

Art

 

Yeah, I wasn't being clear.  Just because you can kill a bear with a .22, that doesn't mean it's recommended.  I was attempting to illustrate the vast difference between between them to create a scale.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Is 10mm anywhere in this conversation where handguns are concerned?  I only ask because I would be much more comfortable making the shot with a glock.
___________________
He would have went on livin, but he made one fatal slip, when he tried to match the Ranger with the big iron on his hip.

Don't wish it were easier; wish you were better

A number of folks in Alaska carry the Glock in 10mm but the only shooting of a bear I know of was with a Colt Delta Elite, used the original Norma load, no idea how many rounds were fired but it worked.

The 10mm is probably better than the .357 Mag or the .45 ACP (haven't tried the Buffalo Bore 255 grain load) but shot placement is key with any handgun.

If you can shoot it accurately then use it...but with an appropriate load like the Buffalo Bore.

A small number of Anchorage Police Dept., Alaska State Troopers and Fish and Wildlife Troopers have used the .40 S&W successfully.

I sometimes carry a Kahr K40, all steel, with Winchester FMJ semi wadcutters, at least they penetrate and it beats the hell out of "bare hands".

As the great one Jeff Cooper said "Attacks by bear are statistically very rare but that is no comfort to the statistic".

Awareness is key, use your senses and your gut, if you have warning and can get set for the confrontation you can survive...being suddenly blitzed reduces your survival odds to almost zero.

Art

 

 

Originally Posted by Mwinter:

Something I always like to remind folks of is that NA bear species can have tissues 2x as dense as a human...

 

...so 16-20" performance in the standard gel might be 8-10" in Br'er Bear. I think I'd rather have a .44M wheelgun with good loads than a 5.56 regardless of load used, even on a lower-48 black bear.

 

I'll try to find the book this weekend, but I have an older 'bear tales' hardcover that shows a grizzly skull dressed out with 2 or 3 standard .30-30 JSPs that either deflected or didn't penetrate adequately.

 

As far as a .44 with good ammo, here's what Randy Garrett,(whose livelihood has been built on ammunition that defends humans from bears), from Garrett Cartridges has to say on the subject:

 

garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

If you really are sold on an AR-based Platform to defend yourself against bear, why not consider buying a separate .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf Upper? Those calibers would definitely be more powerful bear juju than .223/5.56.

 

Also, this link might be of help:

 

https://www.lightfighter.net/to...570#2843236912966570

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

Originally Posted by ptrlcop:

       
Is 10mm anywhere in this conversation where handguns are concerned?  I only ask because I would be much more comfortable making the shot with a glock.

This made me think of a Glock 40 MOS 10mm with an RMR & 200grn XTPs loaded by Doubletap...

- That's most likely what I'll be carrying when the whole famn damily vacations in Colorado this July.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Be careful in Colorado, they now have a limit on the number of cartridges you can have in a magazine and the number the magazine can take.

You will likely be persecuted to the full extent of the law and then some.

A .44 Special +p load (265 grain flat nose at 900 ft per second) should do everything you need it to, Garret had one available at one time and Buffalo Bore may have one.

If you are going to use a Glock, make sure it is downloaded vis a vis the number of cartridges in the mag. if you are going to Colorado.

A 1911 with a standard mag and the Buffalo Bore 255 grain +p (make sure they work) should suffice if you can't bring your Glock because of mag restrictions.

You much more likely to run into human predator scum than a bear, angry deer or crazed elk.

Aggressive dogs and stupid owners can be problem too.

Art

Originally Posted by gulf1263:

       

Be careful in Colorado, they now have a limit on the number of cartridges you can have in a magazine and the number the magazine can take.

You will likely be persecuted to the full extent of the law and then some.

A .44 Special +p load (265 grain flat nose at 900 ft per second) should do everything you need it to, Garret had one available at one time and Buffalo Bore may have one.

If you are going to use a Glock, make sure it is downloaded vis a vis the number of cartridges in the mag. if you are going to Colorado.

A 1911 with a standard mag and the Buffalo Bore 255 grain +p (make sure they work) should suffice if you can't bring your Glock because of mag restrictions.

You much more likely to run into human predator scum than a bear, angry deer or crazed elk.

Aggressive dogs and stupid owners can be problem too.

Art


       
They make 15 round mags for glock 20s. He ahould be ok. Here in Jersey we have the same capacity limit
Originally Posted by gulf1263:

Be careful in Colorado, they now have a limit on the number of cartridges you can have in a magazine and the number the magazine can take.

You will likely be persecuted to the full extent of the law and then some.

What are you basing this on? The way CRS 18-12-302 is written it is effectively unenforceable unless you dime yourself out. Hell plenty of places in CO are selling 'rebuild kits' with all the parts to assemble a 30rnd AR mag or 17rnd glock mag, none have faced repercussions. 

 

I'm also unaware of anyone having been charged under that statute since it was passed. It's a misdemeanor anyway so I don't get the 'full extent and then some.' And as he stated, he's exempt under LEOSA anyway.

 

As for bears, I used a 12G.

Originally Posted by parapyropig:

       
Originally Posted by ptrlcop:

       
Is 10mm anywhere in this conversation where handguns are concerned?  I only ask because I would be much more comfortable making the shot with a glock.

This made me think of a Glock 40 MOS 10mm with an RMR & 200grn XTPs loaded by Doubletap...

- That's most likely what I'll be carrying when the whole famn damily vacations in Colorado this July.

       


Ya, the g40 was exactly what I had in mind...
___________________
He would have went on livin, but he made one fatal slip, when he tried to match the Ranger with the big iron on his hip.

Don't wish it were easier; wish you were better

I got confused about the allowable number of rounds in a mag.

The 10mm would work OK with the Buffalo Bore or equivalent rounds.

The old Norma 200 grn. at 1200 fps worked fine in the one shooting I know of.

A little punchier than the old 38/40 which was used way back when.

It may only be a misdemeanor but over zealous law enforcement and prosecutors can still cost you a lot of money in legal fees to escape the "wheels of justice".

Being a law enforcement officer from out of state may or may not help.

Trying to badge yourself out of a situation could make it worse.

Colorado seems to be heading toward the New York City model and when I cross over the state line from New Mexico I always tread very carefully.

No I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express and am not what you would call an expert.

I do know what has worked on bear though.

Art

Just something to consider

Originally Posted by parapyropig:
I'll be sticking to the western range; fewer hippies & commies. Besides, I have the LEOSA / HR218 thing in my favor (hopefully).

Unfortunately, while the ammo type issue has been unfucked, there are two major problems remaining with LEOSA. One of them is this one - magazine capacity exemption is not present. The other, more obscure, is that the "Gun Free School Zone Act" or whatever its precise name is, only has an exemption for private citizens with an in-state carry license. There is no exemption for those of us covered by LEOSA when out of state (or those of us who also have a bunch of carry licenses that are good in more than one state).

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Originally Posted by XGEP:

       
Originally Posted by gulf1263:

Be careful in Colorado, they now have a limit on the number of cartridges you can have in a magazine and the number the magazine can take.

You will likely be persecuted to the full extent of the law and then some.

What are you basing this on? The way CRS 18-12-302 is written it is effectively unenforceable unless you dime yourself out. Hell plenty of places in CO are selling 'rebuild kits' with all the parts to assemble a 30rnd AR mag or 17rnd glock mag, none have faced repercussions. 

 

I'm also unaware of anyone having been charged under that statute since it was passed. It's a misdemeanor anyway so I don't get the 'full extent and then some.' And as he stated, he's exempt under LEOSA anyway.

 

As for bears, I used a 12G.


       
No more glock 17s in colorado.....here in Jersey a violation of the 15 round mag limit is equivalent of a high felony. Check out NJ v Pelleteri if you want to get sickened.
Originally Posted by gulf1263:

It may only be a misdemeanor but over zealous law enforcement and prosecutors can still cost you a lot of money in legal fees to escape the "wheels of justice".

Being a law enforcement officer from out of state may or may not help.

Trying to badge yourself out of a situation could make it worse.

Look, I'm really not trying to turn this into something it isn't, but stop giving bad information. And I say again, as a former LEO in Colorado, still currently living in Colorado, with a friend who owns a gunshop here in Colorado. This law has never, and effectively cannot be enforced by anyone. The only way somebody would be charged with a violation of 18-12-302 is as an add-on charge to an existing weapons case. There is after all basically no way for the LEO or DA to prove a mag was brought in, or transferred illegally, and the burden is on them to prove the violation.

 

(b) If a person who is alleged to have violated subsection (1) of this section asserts that he or she is permitted to legally possess a large-capacity magazine pursuant to paragraph (a) of this subsection (2), the prosecution has the burden of proof to refute the assertion.

 

Exemptions to 18-12-302 include:

 

(b) An employee of any of the following agencies who bears a firearm in the course of his or her official duties:

(I) A branch of the armed forces of the United States; or

(II) A department, agency, or political subdivision of the state of Colorado, or of any other state, or of the United States government; or

(c) A person who possesses the magazine for the sole purpose of transporting the magazine to an out-of-state entity on behalf of a manufacturer of large-capacity magazines within Colorado.

last weekend while at a pistol/carbine training day i had the opportunity to shoot a mag through a glock 21 set up for .45 super. 255 gr hardcast loads at IIRC 1100 fps. recoil was noticeable and a few seemed to think it was a little much, but i really didn't think it was bad, definitely controllable with proper grip.  the gun had replacement fiber optic sights and a grip reduction with stippling. the owner built the gun specifically for trail carry here in ID where black bears are always around and the occasional grizzly can be encountered near the divide. 

 

Im sticking to my ruger SBH .44 mag for bears but something like this might be a decent option for someone looking for a semi auto/ higher capacity/ more concealable/ more familiar platform. that said, i almost always have a rifle with me, usually .30-06, and the camp gun for bears is an 870 with full bore slugs. 

A 255 grain, .45 caliber bullet going at or over 900 fps seems to work very well.

Even the 180 grain, .40 caliber at 900 fps works, not nearly as well as heavier rounds but it works.

Penetration is a key factor along with shot placement.

I have only once used a handgun, a .44 Mag with a 265 grain hard cast semi-wadcutter at 1,100 fps and it cracked the skull, round two penetrated.

I some times carried my S&W M&P .45c with a 255 grain hard cast at 900 fps and had confidence in its ability to stop an attack with adequate shot placement.

Shotgun with Brenneke's and a rifle with good penetrating bullets are superior but many times that is not what you have.

Even my little Kahr K40 with Winchester .40 S&W 180 grain FMJ will work on black bear.

Art

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