pointblank4445 posted:
Joe007 posted:

"Secondly, the caliber of the firearm used seems to matter less than the ability of the shooter under pressure"

...how novel.

It is for those who think they know everything but in reality don’t know what they don’t know.  

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
__________________________

Because...I Can. 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

Last summer (August 2017) in Glacier National Park in Montana I had my third lifetime chance encounter with a moose (the second involving a momma and a calf).

While hiking near Two Medicine  my wife and I were watching two city people in what she described as "Clubbing" clothes walk up to within 50 feet of the resting animals with their phones to take pictures.  As I watched this tomfoolery unfolding, armed only with a Glock 30S, my wife said the experience was as watching Darwinian natural selection before your eyes.

I have since given my brother my 45 Ruger Redhawk, replacing it with a Glock 20 with heavy hard-cast bullets.  I've not run into bears in the woods, but big cats and moose are nothing to trifle with.

I'll add a couple of observations.  First, I am really, really surprised at the success rate of a handgun, though you have to define success.  If not dying is the measure, they've been very successful.  If the measure is not getting injured, then less successful.  Putting the two together, handguns have been very effective if you can survive long enough for the bear to die first.  I don't know if there is enough data to determine which is more effective, large, very powerful cartridges with fewer hits or smaller, less powerful, but more hits.  In simple terms, a magazine of 9mm vs. 2-4 hits with .454 Casull, .44 Mag, etc.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Sinister posted:

Last summer (August 2017) in Glacier National Park in Montana I had my third lifetime chance encounter with a moose (the second involving a momma and a calf).

While hiking near Two Medicine  my wife and I were watching two city people in what she described as "Clubbing" clothes walk up to within 50 feet of the resting animals with their phones to take pictures.  As I watched this tomfoolery unfolding, armed only with a Glock 30S, my wife said the experience was as watching Darwinian natural selection before your eyes.

I have since given my brother my 45 Ruger Redhawk, replacing it with a Glock 20 with heavy hard-cast bullets.  I've not run into bears in the woods, but big cats and moose are nothing to trifle with.

Loved Glacier (hated the people/congestion)...wife and I were there this past 4th of July.  

I can't say I've ever seen as many bear warning signs as there are on the trails and various areas; pretty blunt too.  Basically saying:

"If you don't at least roll with some spray, bell, or are hiking alone...you're pretty much a dumbass."

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

(Ya' know, back in the 1930's, Colt's advertising posters showed the new .38 Super up against a charging bear.  Maybe that's 80+ year old technology.     Possibly not?   But...........you won't fall asleep lighting off a couple of .38 Super+P rounds. 

(Disclaimer:  I have been off my pain meds for a few days now, and am bored to death, and have NOT read the preceding 3 pages. So, if the .38 Super has already been laughed at and dismissed as a joke, I apologize.   You guys have no idea how long it takes to type with one finger on one hand, BTW.)

Glacier Park is about the ultimate in cool. Here in Idaho, Yellowstone is often referred to as the Walmart of National Parks due to the "variations" of people seen frequenting. 

 

Anyway, perhaps a +P in .38 Super might be an option?  Recoil is quite manageable, capacity is up there, and cost (ammo and pistol)  isn't up into Con-Dudes ballpark.

Bill, Idaho posted:

In (finally) reading the first three pages, apparently back in 2015  someone posted what I just mentioned. Almost word for word.  

A little of the main topic but on point with part of your previous post. 

I know exactly how it feels and how difficult typing is with one finger on a regular keyboard or just one thumb on a phone. I used to be a 65 WPM typer(typist?). 

Ok. Back to bears. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
__________________________

Because...I Can. 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

MOJONIXON posted:

A little of the main topic but on point with part of your previous post. 

I know exactly how it feels and how difficult typing... I used to be a 65 WPM typer(typist?). …

 

While we are off the track but still on the same track, I'm glad to see others call it "typing."   When I've asked someone lately if they could type, I usually get a dumb look as if I'd asked  if they could flagellate.   I found out they could "keyboard."  Geesh.

 

 

 

 

You are fucking kidding me. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

stray round posted:
MOJONIXON posted:

A little of the main topic but on point with part of your previous post. 

I know exactly how it feels and how difficult typing... I used to be a 65 WPM typer(typist?). …

 

While we are off the track but still on the same track, I'm glad to see others call it "typing."   When I've asked someone lately if they could type, I usually get a dumb look as if I'd asked  if they could flagellate.   I found out they could "keyboard."  Geesh.

 

 

 

 

At 55 I think I’m old enough to remember the way things ought to be. I actually took a typing class in high school my senior year. Final exam: one minute timed type on a manual machine. 55 words zero mistakes. A+. 3 sheets to the wind, too. 

Now, perhaps taking the test in that condition isn’t the way things ought to be, but it worked for me, that one time. Never again, though. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
__________________________

Because...I Can. 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

MOJONIXON posted:
stray round posted:
MOJONIXON posted:

A little of the main topic but on point with part of your previous post. 

I know exactly how it feels and how difficult typing... I used to be a 65 WPM typer(typist?). …

 

While we are off the track but still on the same track, I'm glad to see others call it "typing."   When I've asked someone lately if they could type, I usually get a dumb look as if I'd asked  if they could flagellate.   I found out they could "keyboard."  Geesh.

 

 

 

 

At 55 I think I’m old enough to remember the way things ought to be. I actually took a typing class in high school my senior year. Final exam: one minute timed type on a manual machine. 55 words zero mistakes. A+. 3 sheets to the wind, too. 

Now, perhaps taking the test in that condition isn’t the way things ought to be, but it worked for me, that one time. Never again, though. 

I learned to type on a variety of manual typewriters... Royal, Brother, Emerson... stair stepped rows of keys, Black ribbon, manual return, with the same smell of singer sewing machine oil or coal oil (Emerson).  No CTRL+Z, No copy and paste, no backspace to erase, etc..

To this day it doesn't feel "right" typing on a "flatish" PC keyboard.

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

Sinister posted:

While   As I watched this tomfoolery unfolding, armed only with a Glock 30S, my wife said the experience was as watching Darwinian natural selection before your eyes.



She sounds smart... you should let her keep you.

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

libertarian45 posted:

The thought of running into a bear freaks me out.  My BLUF question is: 12 Ga or .44 Mag?

 

I'm also aware of the most important factor discussed in this thread - accuracy/shot placement.  This is somewhat sacrificed in the .44.  The recommended aiming method being to fire with your arms locked straight as you would with a pistol.  Unlike the USA, we are legally allowed to replace the mini stock with a replacement full stock.  This bumps up the o/a length to approx 30 ins and improves the accuracy.  I wonder about the accuracy of the 8.5 ins barrel on the 12 Ga.  A 12.5 ins barreled version can be had and that bumps o/a length to approx 30 ins.  So both more accurate versions are 30 ins o/a which begins to get in the way of compactness/discretion with still no clear winner.  The idea was to approximate the "handiness" of a pistol...

So, it's back to the question of your recommendation of calibre: .44 Mag or 12 Ga.  If you were suffering under the same restrictions/laws as us, what would you choose?  Don't say "move to the US"...

The only real good place for a mares leg is in the movies. I much prefer the shotgun in your situation. Given the Canadian acceptability of a short barrel, I would rock the 12-14" shogun with a full stock, ghost ring sights and hard cast slugs in the tube all day long. It is handy enough, looks innocent enough, and most importantly it offers very controllable accuracy and power in a compact package.

Even here in the USA, the affordability of an SBS stamp (or "pistol" classification for free) makes the sawed off gauge pretty viable.

stray round posted:
MOJONIXON posted:

A little of the main topic but on point with part of your previous post. 

I know exactly how it feels and how difficult typing... I used to be a 65 WPM typer(typist?). …

 

While we are off the track but still on the same track, I'm glad to see others call it "typing."   When I've asked someone lately if they could type, I usually get a dumb look as if I'd asked  if they could flagellate.   I found out they could "keyboard."  Geesh.

 

 

 

 

Thank God. I can die happy now. I thought I was the only one who didn't know. Couple years ago, at a parent's night at school, they talked about the keyboard class. Finally, I asked what that was. After the teacher explained it, I said, "You mean Typing Class?"   15 seconds of silence followed by, "Yes."

 

On bears. I don't find it surprising that handguns have done well against them. They're just arteries and organs protected by meat and bones, and a bit of skin and hair. Not unlike any other animal, if not a tad more dense. More importantly, like other animals, they're extremely adverse to injury and death. Your goal is to somehow communicate to the animal that it's too risky to its health to continue and hope it believes it has an escape route. Several holes from a loud and painful 9mm is not a bad way to do that. 

 

There are exceptions of course.  For various reasons, there are times where the wild animal is intent on the attack. In that case, your probably just fucked unless you caused enough trauma and blood loss early in the fight. 

----------------------------

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."


Friends, in your life I hope you do four things; lie, steal, cheat, and drink. When you lie,do it to save a friend. When you steal, steal someone's heart. When you cheat, cheat death. And when you drink, drink with me.

Joined 06/02/09.        Sierra Nevadas, Ca.

I guess bears are a first world problem...

I think one of those  870 Tac14s would take care of this:

 

Man, 72, killed by group of aggressive "rogue" monkeys throwing bricks at him from tree

 

 

A man has been 'stoned to death' by a group of "rogue" monkeys who threw bricks at him from a tree, according to reports.

Dharampal Singh, 72, suffered head and chest injuries in the attack and was later pronounced dead in hospital.

 

Mr Singh was collecting pieces of dry wood when the group of monkeys launched their attack on Thursday.

It is believed the monkeys had armed themselves with bricks they had collected earlier from a run down building nearby in Tikri, Uttar Pradesh.

Villagers have repeatedly complained that aggressive monkeys in the area have made their lives hell, but the animals are a protected species so little can be done.

Mr Singh’s brother Krishnapal told The Times of India : "Monkeys threw more than 20 bricks at Dharampal on Thursday.

"Thrown from quite a height, the bricks were enough to kill him.

"These rogue monkeys are the real culprits and must pay for it."

Mr Singh's family has lodged a formal complaint and named monkeys as the accused but police insisted they cannot prosecute monkeys and have declared Mr Singh’s death was an accident.

Chitwan Singh, station officer at Doghat police station, said: "How can we register the case against monkeys?

"This will make us a laughing stock."

Deadly attacks by monkeys have been on rise throughout the country and wildlife experts say that rhesus macaques are usually to blame - although it is not clear which breed attacked Mr Singh.

https://www.mirror.co<DOT>uk/news/world-news/monkeys-kill-man-tree-bricks-13448752

 

Longeye posted:
libertarian45 posted:

The thought of running into a bear freaks me out.  My BLUF question is: 12 Ga or .44 Mag?

 

I'm also aware of the most important factor discussed in this thread - accuracy/shot placement.  This is somewhat sacrificed in the .44.  The recommended aiming method being to fire with your arms locked straight as you would with a pistol.  Unlike the USA, we are legally allowed to replace the mini stock with a replacement full stock.  This bumps up the o/a length to approx 30 ins and improves the accuracy.  I wonder about the accuracy of the 8.5 ins barrel on the 12 Ga.  A 12.5 ins barreled version can be had and that bumps o/a length to approx 30 ins.  So both more accurate versions are 30 ins o/a which begins to get in the way of compactness/discretion with still no clear winner.  The idea was to approximate the "handiness" of a pistol...

So, it's back to the question of your recommendation of calibre: .44 Mag or 12 Ga.  If you were suffering under the same restrictions/laws as us, what would you choose?  Don't say "move to the US"...

The only real good place for a mares leg is in the movies. I much prefer the shotgun in your situation. Given the Canadian acceptability of a short barrel, I would rock the 12-14" shogun with a full stock, ghost ring sights and hard cast slugs in the tube all day long. It is handy enough, looks innocent enough, and most importantly it offers very controllable accuracy and power in a compact package.

Even here in the USA, the affordability of an SBS stamp (or "pistol" classification for free) makes the sawed off gauge pretty viable.

Thanks.  Finally someone replied.  I was beginning to think my question was so dumb that people were ignoring it.  12 Ga. is certainly the cheaper option and more versatile.  I've had my eye on a brand new 13" bbl pump with a simple stock for approx. $250 while the mare's leg is $900.  The 12 Ga. does weigh approx. 7lbs compared to the ML  at approx. 5lbs.  And I am trying to get as close to the convenience of a hand gun as possible....convenience isn't worth sacrificing effectiveness, though.  I've got a house sale coming up.  Maybe the Mrs will let me buy both....

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

libertarian45 posted:
Longeye posted:
libertarian45 posted:

The thought of running into a bear freaks me out.  My BLUF question is: 12 Ga or .44 Mag?

 

I'm also aware of the most important factor discussed in this thread - accuracy/shot placement.  This is somewhat sacrificed in the .44.  The recommended aiming method being to fire with your arms locked straight as you would with a pistol.  Unlike the USA, we are legally allowed to replace the mini stock with a replacement full stock.  This bumps up the o/a length to approx 30 ins and improves the accuracy.  I wonder about the accuracy of the 8.5 ins barrel on the 12 Ga.  A 12.5 ins barreled version can be had and that bumps o/a length to approx 30 ins.  So both more accurate versions are 30 ins o/a which begins to get in the way of compactness/discretion with still no clear winner.  The idea was to approximate the "handiness" of a pistol...

So, it's back to the question of your recommendation of calibre: .44 Mag or 12 Ga.  If you were suffering under the same restrictions/laws as us, what would you choose?  Don't say "move to the US"...

The only real good place for a mares leg is in the movies. I much prefer the shotgun in your situation. Given the Canadian acceptability of a short barrel, I would rock the 12-14" shogun with a full stock, ghost ring sights and hard cast slugs in the tube all day long. It is handy enough, looks innocent enough, and most importantly it offers very controllable accuracy and power in a compact package.

Even here in the USA, the affordability of an SBS stamp (or "pistol" classification for free) makes the sawed off gauge pretty viable.

Thanks.  Finally someone replied.  I was beginning to think my question was so dumb that people were ignoring it.  12 Ga. is certainly the cheaper option and more versatile.  I've had my eye on a brand new 13" bbl pump with a simple stock for approx. $250 while the mare's leg is $900.  The 12 Ga. does weigh approx. 7lbs compared to the ML  at approx. 5lbs.  And I am trying to get as close to the convenience of a hand gun as possible....convenience isn't worth sacrificing effectiveness, though.  I've got a hose sale coming up.  Maybe the Mrs will let me buy both....

Thought it was answered. Sorry. Mares Leg?  Nope. 

 

Shotgun?  With slugs maybe. 

 

44 mag?  In a standard lever action rifle, I like it better than the shotgun. 

 

Might be because I'm better with a lever gun because that's what I mostly use. Might be because I've never had the right shotgun to be confident in it's ability over a lever action of sufficient caliber. I don't know.   But comparing a Mares Leg to a shotgun isn't even comparing weapons in the same class, category, or dreamscape. I'd go with a real lever action, then a shotgun, then a revolver, and never the Mares Leg. 

 

And remember this thread is really a worst case holy shit scenario. The reality is most humans who come within 100 yards of a bear never even know it. Hell, I actively TRY to find bears almost every year and have only had a dozen or so encounters. 99% of those were watching the backside of a bear from a far off distance as he high tailed it out of my vicinity. 

----------------------------

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."


Friends, in your life I hope you do four things; lie, steal, cheat, and drink. When you lie,do it to save a friend. When you steal, steal someone's heart. When you cheat, cheat death. And when you drink, drink with me.

Joined 06/02/09.        Sierra Nevadas, Ca.

A .44 lever gun and a short shotgun loaded with appropriate hard slugs are not comparable either.

Shot for shot, the .72 caliber 480 grain slug will trump the .429 caliber 240-300 gr. slug all week and twice on Sunday. If one bumps up to .45-70, then the comparison starts to even out.

In the event that both weapons go Winchester, the gauge is far easier to reload.

In my world, I would call a 12 ga. with hard slugs and ghost ring sights about equal to a bolt action .308 in efficacy. Call them tied for second place. There are several blank spots on the list, then we get to to the .45-70 lever gun with a T1 sight mounted.   Just below that is a lightweight AR with a T1 sight, and Fury Scout light mounted.  Pistol caliber lever guns don't make my personal Top Twenty for bear guns, and neither do pistols themselves.

I am certainly not an expert, but having spent time in Alaska and seeing the size of the Kodiaks, anything less than an M45 Quadmount is substandard.

So in reference to defense (not hunting)  bears are the tanks of the animal world, you get a 'stop' three ways, electrical (central nervous system), hydraulic (bleed out/turning off the 'pump'/heart), or a mobility kill (broken, damaged joints). Hydraulics is iffy and takes a long time, electrical is very hard to hit (skulls are very thick and are naturally 'sloped armor' for greater thickness and deflection), so IMO you need big, heavy hard hitting and good penetration for those mobility kills. Plus the nature of the 'encounter', he is ambushing you, not you ambushing him, so very little chance of you setting up for a perfect broadside shot.

Also for me, 2 more things count, transportability (both by aircraft, and when in the bush) and round count. The round count gives more opportunity for a mobility kill  (as long as it is big, heavy and penetrating), and if being charged by a Kodiak, I will probably be missing a lot (lion in the long grass syndrome) So my options...

12 gauge - Remington Model 12, takedown, (good enough for the 'Wild Bunch' in turn of the century Mexico, good enough for me) 

45/70 - Marlin Guidegun, takedown conversion, (45/70 the only 'government' I trust)

.50 Beowulf - AR, (A Viking tie-in can't be bad)

.308 - FAL, 16" barrel incl. FH (the right arm of the free world and the Alaskan bush)

beargun1

Taken down they all are pretty much the same length with the Model 12 and Guidegun being the shortest. The Guidegun has the lowest round count at 4+1, followed by the Model 12. The 50 Beowulf is 12+1 (using '40 rd' mags) and the Fal is 20-30 rounds, depending on the mag.

The Model 12 is the best for looking under the radar, followed by the Guidegun. As the 50 Beowulf is pretty close to 45/70 in 'normal loads' (you can, of course, buy and handload 45/70 very hot for modern guns), round capacity and reload wise it beats the Guidegun.

beargun2

Of course, if you handload you can go crazy with the 45/70. There are some very big/heavy plugs out there (that is a 9mm in the photo)

beargun3

All that said, the FAL is my normal go-to gun for bear country.

 

 

________________________

"It's paranoia until something happens, then it is preparedness"

"It is not whether you're paranoid, it whether you're paranoid enough"

"When did you get so paranoid?" …When they started plotting against me.

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Is there a .45 cal or larger cartridge that is based on the .308 case that would be suitable for an AR10 carbine?

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I found this article over on the excellent Hill People Gear web forum. It has some interesting insights.

As usual, the comment section needs a Prop 65 warning as some will cause cancer and asthma. About half way down though, the subject of the bear attack responds to a few of the more egregious comments.

https://www.>>>>>COLDLINK>>>>thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/
Longeye posted:

I found this article over on the excellent Hill People Gear web forum. It has some interesting insights.

As usual, the comment section needs a Prop 65 warning as some will cause cancer and asthma. About half way down though, the subject of the bear attack responds to a few of the more egregious comments.

https://www.>>>>>COLDLINK>>>>thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/

Reading the story and then the comments I would note that the lessons presented in the story are lost on 99% of the commenters...

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

Haven't even gotten to the rest of it, but this, right fucking here in the intro bits is why many of us rail against those who post shitty info. It makes people do bad, dangerous things. 

It was loaded with 175 grain Hornady Critical Duty FlexLock loads. The magazine only had 10-12 rounds in it. A few months earlier, he had heard the theory of “spring set” and decided not to keep the magazine fully loaded.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

It would be useful for BATFE and NSSF to make a comic book type propaganda poster that would be distributed to all FFL dealers to postup around the shop and on the wall by the gun racks.

It would say:
TRUTH BOMBS:


SPRING SET IS A MYTH- LOAD YOUR MAGAZINES FULLY- LEAVE THEM FULLY LOADED.

AMMUNITION FOR SELF DEFENSE SHOULD BE PREMIUM EXPANDING HOLLOW POINT BULLETS.

AMMUNITION FOR BEAR DEFENSE SHOULD BE HARD CAST SOLIDS.

FOR THE LOVE OF ODIN DO NOT MIX HARD CAST BULLETS AND HOLLOW POINTS IN YOUR MAGAZINE.  THE SAME GOES FOR BUCKSHOT AND SLUGS.

 A HEAVY MAGNUM LOAD IS WASTED ON YOUR  SHOOTING ABILITY.  BUY A PISTOL AND AMMUNITION THAT YOU CAN CONTROL AND SHOOT WELL.

THE GAS RINGS ON YOU AR-15 DO NOT NEED STAGGERED

CARRYING A DEFENSIVE PISTOL WITH AN EMPTY CHAMBER IS DUMB- IF YOU DON'T TRUST A MODERN LOADED FIREARM, GET CURRENT TRAINING.

YOUR GIRLFRIEND'S PINK LADYSMITH THAT SHE SHOOTS EVERY WEEK IS MORE USEFUL THAN YOUR DIRTY HARRY .44 MAGNUM THAT YOU HAVE NOT FIRED IN 3 YEARS BECAUSE IT HURTS.

DO NOT USE BIRDSHOT IN YOUR HOME DEFENSE SHOTGUN.

Think how cool it would be it ATF's statutory authority was like FCC or FAA: to promote the use of the services, AND to regulate it. You'd totally have posters and brochures, and a YouTube channel, and ATF-sponsored shooting events, and more. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Longeye posted
DO NOT USE BIRDSHOT IN YOUR HOME DEFENSE SHOTGUN.
 

Quite timely to this thread (good video)

https://youtu.be/o0uM7s8hprc?t=30

https://www(dot)dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6313901/Terrified-wife-captures-moment-mother-grizzly-bear-charges-husband.html

  • Shocking footage shows Lawrence Michalchuk encountering the mother bear and her three cubs in his yard at Bella Coola, British Columbia
  • Michalchuk fired two warning shots - using birdshot shells - in an effort to get the animals to flee 
  • They fled but the man then went outside and yelled at the mother grizzly in an effort to 'keep her moving'
  • When the bear started charging at the man, Michalchuk fired the third shot and hit the animal in its leg 
  • It stumbled across the ground before fleeing back into the woods 
  • 2018-10-25_11h32_25

________________________

"It's paranoia until something happens, then it is preparedness"

"It is not whether you're paranoid, it whether you're paranoid enough"

"When did you get so paranoid?" …When they started plotting against me.

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I saw that earlier, that's great, now there is an injured Grizzly out there that will be pissed off at anything around. I agree it had to be ran off, but damn, come on. 

“Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?’ And I said, ‘Here am I. Send me!’”
"Fuck the know it alls.They don't have to do it, and don't have the balls to do it"

Pat Rogers.

mog posted:
Longeye posted
DO NOT USE BIRDSHOT IN YOUR HOME DEFENSE SHOTGUN.
 

Quite timely to this thread (good video)

https://youtu.be/o0uM7s8hprc?t=30

https://www(dot)dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6313901/Terrified-wife-captures-moment-mother-grizzly-bear-charges-husband.html

  • Shocking footage shows Lawrence Michalchuk encountering the mother bear and her three cubs in his yard at Bella Coola, British Columbia
  • Michalchuk fired two warning shots - using birdshot shells - in an effort to get the animals to flee 
  • They fled but the man then went outside and yelled at the mother grizzly in an effort to 'keep her moving'
  • When the bear started charging at the man, Michalchuk fired the third shot and hit the animal in its leg 
  • It stumbled across the ground before fleeing back into the woods 

Beat me to it.  I live in British Columbia hence my question.

Enjoying the good info.  At the risk of digging my "stupid hole" deeper, I initially mentioned the mare's leg  because the thread was dealing with handguns - something you might have on you during a chance encounter rather than lugging around a 45-70 (love the FAL idea, though.  Unfortunately FALs are prohibited in my country.  I'm currently not even allowed to take mine to the range).  Since handguns are restricted in the totalitarian-almost-as-bad-as-Australia county where I live, the ML is the closest we come to a non-restricted almost handgun that can go into the woods..  However, the consensus here seems to be that it is as dumb as it looks...

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

The problem with the Mares leg is not power.   It is plenty powerful.
The problem is one of practical accuracy... Can you use it to precisely place bullets where they are needed on demand under time pressure?  With  its compromised ergonomics, the answer is no.

Now if one bought a Mare's Leg,  junked the stupid club stock on it, and replaced it with a regular carbine stock, it would be an eminently useful weapon. Short, light, handy, etc.  We would call it a lever action SBR here in the States.  Or one could buy a regular 1894, and send it off to get the magazine and barrel chopped to 12" for the same effect.

The Mares leg is ripe for a "pistol brace" here in the States.

Just to explore this, a rifle-like pistol would seem helpful sometimes, such as for dangerous game defense. Has anyone made a mare's leg or similar gun work better as a pistol? I mean maybe this sort of stock...

...to hold it in a more revolver-like grip, and some more pistol-like sights, with the rear well back on the receiver? 

(Personally, a 10 mm autopistol is high on my list. I'd want to be able to use something one-handed. Even just dog attacks too often take an arm early.)

 

ETA: I can't tell if I should laugh or cry

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

The wife and I recently relocated to northern Idaho. Big cat sightings are up inside our town limits and we saw our first moose, inside 25 yards, in the wild. We hike with our dogs and mountain bike pretty much every weekend, the dogs freaked out when we saw the moose. After letting hh6 know that the 124gr +p gold dot would have minimal if any immediate effect I was given permission, to purchase a handgun that would up our chances. I picked a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley in 44 mag and after some reading I also grabbed some buffalo bore cast rounds in 255 Lower recoil, 305 and the 340+p+. 

The 340+p+ are insane out of this 3.75" barreled pistol and she refuses to fire it, hell I didn't enjoy shooting them either. I don't think I would have a chance of getting off another shot if the first missed or didn't end it before the animal was on me. The wife can handle the 255gr hard cast lower recoil pretty well so that's what we are packing even tho I think the 305 would be a better round.  I've been carrying this thing in the Hill People Gear Heavy Recon Kit Bag since I got it, excellent piece of gear. 

I'm thinking something more along these lines...

Remington Tac14

Image result for remington tac 14

and 

Glock40 MOS (10mm) with hard cast bullets

Image result for glock 40 mos

in hopes to be able to fight long enough to get to this..

Marlin Guide Gun in 450 Marlin

Image result for 450 marlin guide gun

or 

Image result for browning m2hb

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

How many folks have shot their Mares Leg or Shockwave or TAC 14 on a legit Bill Drill or a Tueller drill with slugs? How did that work out?

How many have used those weapons to fire a head shot on demand in 1.5 seconds from 7, 10 and 15 meters? How did that work out?

There is a reason for nominal long guns to have stocks.

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