Tangent of the day I want to discuss.

DA/SA trigger systems.

A ton gets made of these and many discussions reach a massive level of stupid. Most people are aware by now that I address my working, daily carry personal protection handguns as a use of force tool, and not a shooting thing. If I am sport shooting.....I will look at things through that lens, but that is not how I look at this stuff anymore.

Here is what the DA/SA gets you from the use of force aspect. I teach threat evaluation and elimination through the S.E.E. principle I learned from a former Delta soldier named Gene Zink. See, Evaluate, Eliminate. This is different in many applications for how you perform each task and the time spent on each task depending on what you are doing and your capacity. Threat evaluation is vastly different for a soldier on the battlefield in open combat to an urban police officer in a populous urban area in a socialist utopia. For a citizen, it is different for a person in their own home versus while they are carrying a concealed firearm at a shopping mall. For some aspects of use of lethal force, spending a long time in the evaluation phase is a critical component on how you will survive the aftermath and the legal and ethical microscopic review of your actions after the shot breaks.

The benefit I saw of both carrying, shooting, reviewing others shootings, and hundreds of personal applications of force with a DA/SA pistol over a couple decades is they allow me to spend extra time in the evaluation phase, and actually still be evaluating into the elimination by lethal force phase. That DA trigger press is a long, smooth, rolling, build up to a shot, where a lot of rapid evaluation is still being done in a very compressed time frame and during a period after the decision to shoot has been made where your brain is doing some pretty amazing things with "time". Many like to treat all the trigger presses the same. I do not. Shot number one from the DA is my most important and the most difficult for two reasons. I have to focus on doing a multitude of things before that shot breaks as far as complex problem solving and that continues during the roll through the trigger action that the first shot will be. Once that problem solving is completed, evaluation completed, the intake of massive amounts of information completed visually, and the shot breaks.....now things change just like the trigger and I get a trigger that is now optimized for continued shooting which is only happening if a simple evaluation is still present..."is my threat still in my sights". At this point it is a continue to press issue. I do treat the triggers different and with different needs to the ease in which the shot is fired physically. The key to working these triggers to me is training a lot with dedication to shot number one and mastering the DA roll, and then the mastery of the transition from the first shot that is done with a momentum building roll to a shot, reset (flip or only to the reset point....I am a bit agnostic on this and sort of "do what works for you and your application and shooting style") in follow through and then a controlled short press to continue the process as needed. This needs to be trained to a sub conscious level of mastery. This tends to be the failure of these systems. The guns were often chosen to be hard to shoot negligently, and then the training to shoot well never performed by many police and military organizations,

The big issue with these guns is post shooting. From a purely lethal force use tool standpoint, Decocking HAS to be trained to a totally sub conscious remote control level-period. I implemented a protocol with my folks where decocking was done every time the pistol was taken off the engaged target and back to a Ready position, whether you fired or not......every time. I can attest personally to how well training this to the sub conscious mastery level works. Post shooting of an armed suspect who immediately dropped to a single centered chest shot, I made a conscious decision to de cock my pistol. It was already de cocked, which I did with no recollection of doing that task. That is what repetitive training is all about. Decocking every time the gun comes back to any Ready position off target is a freebie for getting a lot of repetitions in and will make the user of a DA/SA pistol far more competent when used as a working force tool. Again...how people want to run the things as a sport shooting gun is irrelevant to me, and the methodology will likely be very different when dealing with multiple un-assessed targets with no real consequence for getting things wrong. Different venue, different training and priorities.

The current popularity of front appendix carry, hammer guns are a good thing. Hammer guns with long movement triggers are a good thing. Many think front appendix carry was invented a couple years ago....pure fiction from the internet. Cops with snub nose Revolvers carried his way for a very long time. Due to a bad shoulder injury as a probationary police officer in 1988, I was forced to carry in front of my hips from that point on to be able to draw without pain. I carried both my off duty and back up guns in front appendix as a norm. Hammer fired, double action guns (both Revolvers and semi auto's) give the end user a lot more screw up room for this type of carry. At this stage in my life, I will not carry a striker fired pistol front appendix (and I spent a lot of years doing that with a Glock). Simply an acceptance of a stage in life where I don't want to depend on being 100% switched on every waking minute of the day. I would rather have that extra measure of control of the gun and the trigger and underestimate my skills than over estimate them.

Overall, I like the DA/SA as a means of getting two trigger actions that are each optimized for where the individual attributes are needed in the application of lethal force process. A lot of movement and feed back in the time frame of deciding to shoot and the shot going off, and then less movement and feedback when the evaluation process is far simpler and less intensive. The Post shooting de-cocking process is a negative that can be overcome with repetitive training and good habit development.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

DB, your explanations make a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Re DA/SA vs. striker fired, from a very limited resources environment as regular security forces (no time available, no ammo, no shame, no will, no love), which one do you makes a more suitable choice?

Joined: 30DEC08      Location: SPAIN

Take care, keep safe, stay frosty, brother!

tirotactico.net

mohican posted:

DB, your explanations make a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Re DA/SA vs. striker fired, from a very limited resources environment as regular security forces (no time available, no ammo, no shame, no will, no love), which one do you makes a more suitable choice?

That is where I think the real place for the LEM is.  Based on my background of training folks who have to carry a gun, and most look at them as no different than a pen, or rain gear......the LEM makes sense.  Striker guns like the Glock, and DA/SA service guns are both problematic for those with minimal training or desire for different reasons. 

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

This matched set of customized PX4CC's from Robar Guns and Langdon Tactical just arrived.  They were Stock Beretta PX4CC's modified to the Robar/Langdon Mod 5 package with the slides further modified with Tan Poly T to replace the grey Cerakote and handmade custom decocking levers.  The guns are simply exceptional and will become mine and my significant others' daily carry concealed carry guns.  Thanks to Freddie Blish and his crew of elves at Robar and the extra special work by Ernest Langdon on this project. 

IMG_2046IMG_2048

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Attachments

Photos (2)

Holy crap.  And.by that I mean...holy crap.  My best friend wanted a carry gun and I pointed him to the Beretta. I got to put a few mags through it.  Very very nice pistol.

 

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

I AM GROOT.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Consigliere posted:

Holy crap.  And.by that I mean...holy crap.  My best friend wanted a carry gun and I pointed him to the Beretta. I got to put a few mags through it.  Very very nice pistol.

 

The factory PX4CC are nice guns, the Robar/Langdon guns are much better.  When one of the total revolver guru's at the shop I picked them up at says the triggers are better than his heavily tuned S&W K frame triggers in DA, you know it is at another level.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Why do I click on these threads? It only hurts my wallet.  Those guns look great. My agency issues P226's w/ DAK triggers. Your explanation as to why makes more sense than anything I've ever heard as to why we have them.  

"Hold my beer and watch this"

I need to sell my Sigs now to get two Beretta PX4cc.  

I did just order a Beretta ARX-100 because it's the only non AR and non Scar that I like.  

I wonder if I could trade into a PX4cc for my p228....my wife likes my p2000v3 with nickel plated spring and uspc match 11 pound hammer spring but she is mandated a Glock 22 or Glock 23 plain clothes.  Also these are 15 round guns where a p2000 is 13, okay in most circumstances but it is two more rounds.

I put 110 rounds through a friend's today. The only thing he did to it was install a WC 12lb hammer spring. DAYUM, was that a smooth DA press! Single action was very nice as well, almost too nice. I would like to work with it some more. Unable to do holster work at the range I was on. This gun felt great in my hand. I just don't know if I can justify the expense of another platform, but this is beyond tempting. 

With this set up, it would make an excellent DAO, if one were required to have that configuration.

Location: North Carolina

CWM11B posted:

I put 110 rounds through a friend's today. The only thing he did to it was install a WC 12lb hammer spring. DAYUM, was that a smooth DA press! Single action was very nice as well, almost too nice. I would like to work with it some more. Unable to do holster work at the range I was on. This gun felt great in my hand. I just don't know if I can justify the expense of another platform, but this is beyond tempting. 

With this set up, it would make an excellent DAO, if one were required to have that configuration.

The Robar/Langdon actions make the stock one with the 12 pound feel like crap. Anyone who has felt the action on mine have simply gone to jaw drop.  They are literally like a tuned 6lb S&W competition Revolver action good.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Well, probably a good thing I'm not close enough to your locale to handle it then. Would cost me money.  The stock Langdon gun with that spring combo had me reaching for the wallet as it was. The vision of HH6 in my head is the only thing that stopped me  

Location: North Carolina

CWM11B posted:

The vision of HH6 in my head is the only thing that stopped me  

Perhaps you need to get your wife more interested in firearms and shooting ?

Mine tries to talk me into purchasing anything she thinks is "cool"  or "neat" looking, and anytime I'm debating on purchasing something she tells me "just go ahead and buy the damn thing already".

Moustache_6 posted:
CWM11B posted:

The vision of HH6 in my head is the only thing that stopped me  

Perhaps you need to get your wife more interested in firearms and shooting ?

Mine tries to talk me into purchasing anything she thinks is "cool"  or "neat" looking, and anytime I'm debating on purchasing something she tells me "just go ahead and buy the damn thing already".

Your wife needs to have a discussion with mine. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
__________________________

Because...I Can. 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

MOJONIXON posted:
Moustache_6 posted:
CWM11B posted:

The vision of HH6 in my head is the only thing that stopped me  

Perhaps you need to get your wife more interested in firearms and shooting ?

Mine tries to talk me into purchasing anything she thinks is "cool"  or "neat" looking, and anytime I'm debating on purchasing something she tells me "just go ahead and buy the damn thing already".

Your wife needs to have a discussion with mine. 

My wife is a fairly regular attendee of the "CBS: Connecticut Beer Social" events that Consigliere organizes, I'm sure she'd be more than willing to have a discussion with your wife if you two came out to one of the next CBS events.

Moustache_6 posted:
MOJONIXON posted:
Moustache_6 posted:
CWM11B posted:

The vision of HH6 in my head is the only thing that stopped me  

Perhaps you need to get your wife more interested in firearms and shooting ?

Mine tries to talk me into purchasing anything she thinks is "cool"  or "neat" looking, and anytime I'm debating on purchasing something she tells me "just go ahead and buy the damn thing already".

Your wife needs to have a discussion with mine. 

My wife is a fairly regular attendee of the "CBS: Connecticut Beer Social" events that Consigliere organizes, I'm sure she'd be more than willing to have a discussion with your wife if you two came out to one of the next CBS events.

That will take some serious conniving on my part but it's worth it to me. I'll be working on it. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
__________________________

Because...I Can. 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

This is called "living the dream"....note what she is shooting.

IMG_5331

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Attachments

Photos (1)

Welp, I finally got one. Got a SMOKING deal off the swap meet on another board. Gun had a stated 500 rounds through it, an extra mag (4 total) a Langdon bobbed hammer installed, the original hammer, 11 lb hammer spring and the factory original, plus a beretta kydex  like holster. It looks practically new. Only dry fire so far, and DA is incredible. The SA is a bit light for a carry gun IMO. I'm going to put it on my trigger gauge. Was told it's about 2 lbs. I want 4-4.5 on a street piece. I have heard the Wilson 14 lb duty spring is the way to go. Anybody have experience with it?

Location: North Carolina

I found a PX4 compact inox for $275 bucks at my LGS. I bought it and I liked it so much that I bought a mod 5 PX4 compact carry direct from Langdon. I look forward to shooting it more. I plan on sending the inox to Langdon for his magic.  I have to play with the grip inserts; once I figure out which one to use I will put the talon grips on


 

Add Reply

Likes (4)
Post
Copyright Lightfighter Tactical Forum 2002-2019
×
×
×
×
×