Current state of the .308 AR?

LCPL1066, in response to your inquiry:

I bought my DD5V1 (Key-Mod Rail equipped) over two years ago and have been exceptionally happy with it in all regards. Being "warrior-sized" (according to Pat) it's the first .308 rifle I've been able to manage weight-wise. I took the time to break in the barrel even though most people think it's a waste of time/ammo. Accuracy (out to 500 yds so far) has been as good as sub .5 MOA with handloaded 175 gr SMK's using 10X Mil-Dot scope. Reliability has been 100% regardless of ammo used.  Topped with a Trijicon MRO RDS I've performed V-Drill scenarios almost as easily as with my AR15, just a lot slower because of managing recoil. The nickel coating they use on the BCG makes it easy to clean.  BTW, PSA AR-10's are now available in the $600 ball-park, but I'd rather have what I've got. On the opposite end, LaRue Tactical makes a terrific AR-10 OBR that is insanely accurate at longer ranges than I could ever imagine possible.

Our tac team is regional - no towns are huge in our county, so we draw manpower from the county seat, us, the county, the local university, our second largest town, then fire services.  Our county bought larue OBR's for their snipers. They are reliable and accurate - but they are very heavy and expensive. Way out of my league for a range plinker.  I all the time tell myself I could get X or Y gun, and could put it into service at work - but I genuinely have no use for a .308 gas gun at work. I'm also not rich enough to just buy everything super nice. I have to pick and choose what I can but with cost in mind.  I'd like to stay married. And my wife is a very angry woman regularly - it's worse when I blow money on stupid stuff (she thinks 3 jeep wrangler with lift kits is excessive - but I do have 2 kids that drive them). 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Anyone have any experience with the CMT UHP-10 & UPUR-10 matched lower & upper receiver set?  Considering doing a 16" (1:10" twist) with a QD can precision build.  I am partial to Centurion rails so am leaning toward the 7.62mm CMR rail (most likely a 12") and I know the CMT will fit.  Still debating on the barrel choice, can make & model, trigger, and rail length. 

x/S

¿Si no nosotros, que quien?

I did not find the 16 and 18" OBRs to be excessively heavy, for a .308. 

Then again i used to carry an M4 w/ M203, or an M249..

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

MrMurphy posted:

I did not find the 16 and 18" OBRs to be excessively heavy, for a .308. 

Then again i used to carry an M4 w/ M203, or an M249..

Did you find them to function?  That would go against my experience with the rifles.

Rick

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

Yes, they did. This was the initial test run before they were released to the wild. Haven't shot any in the last 5 years, though a coworker carries a 5.56 PredatOBR on duty, has put thousands through his without any issues.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

I have an S&W MP-10 with the 18 inch barrel.  I installed a Lancer carbon fiber handguard. It's gassed for commercial 308 ammo. Using milsurp sometimes results in short stroking, especially when it's cold. It shoots about 1 MOA with the 168/165 gr Superformance ammo. It's a good rifle and I like it a lot.

Just because it's rocket science doesn't mean it's complicated

Adding to this thread for related content rather than starting a new one.

I just got the silly idea in my head to build a 14.5" barrel (w/ pinned brake) 308 AR. Something smaller and lighter than my 20" barrel PredatOBR, for when I want to put some thump on things 600m and in.

I picked up an Aero M5 upper/lower set (both stripped, didn't like how fat the Aero handguards are), so now I've mostly got a clear idea of what will be going on it. Ballistic Advantage 14.5" barrel, Aero LPK, Larue MBT trigger, Surefire brake (want the option to run suppressed.)

There are still a few parts I'm not totally decided on.

Gas block. Would like adjustable and have used Syrac gas blocks in the past. The current debate is between SLR and the Superlative Arms bleed off block.

Handguards. Either SLR solo ultra lite 13.5" or Centurion MLOK 13". Both are MLOK and slim. Neither needs barrel nut timing, but I'm not sure if an adjustable block will fit under the Centurion.

Optic. Something like a 1-6 or 1-8 would be ideal, but I also don't want to go over say, $1400ish. Preferably no BDC reticles and not something that's a huge fatty (like the Vortex Razor II.)

What are your thoughts? I googled around and didn't find many people building 14.5" 308s for comparison.

The Rat posted:

 

Handguards. Either SLR solo ultra lite 13.5" or Centurion MLOK 13". Both are MLOK and slim. Neither needs barrel nut timing, but I'm not sure if an adjustable block will fit under the Centurion.

Pretty sure you can't use the CA CMR M-LOK, you'd have to use this: https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/701112.htm

As for the SLR, remember to grab this and not the 5.56 version: http://slrrifleworks.com/index...&product_id=1147

The Rat posted:

 Well, the newer Gen II-E is a few ounces lighter. Over your budget, but not terribly so, is the new Nightforce NX8.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

The Rat posted:

CA does have a 7.62 MLOK version apparently: https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/cmr-mlok-762.html

I am still leaning towards the SLR handguard you linked though.

Also planning on actually budgeting this one out and piecing it together over a few months rather than my usual method of buying everything at once. Hoping to take advantage of some sales when they come up.

Say whattt. That's awesome. And FWIW, the old CMR DPMS Highs were able to accept the SLR AGBs, as I was looking into that when I was thinking of building a .308 AR.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

Rat,

I promise I am not following you down this road like I did on the AK thread. I picked up an Aero upper/lower to so the same. Trying to decide between a 16 (14.5 w/device) or an 18. I took a chance on a hipertouch 24E. Trying to figure out which lower parts I want. The handguard is the head scratcher. I like my SLR on my AR9 and the Centurion rail on my BCM upper is solid but I just don't know, maybe Geissele or Hodge Defense. I had my eye on a Mega Monolithic upper but their prices have soared.

Looking forward to hearing your updates.

---------------------------------- 'My lot in life is to serve, to the best of my ability. To know my life was not a waste, that in the end I can look back from the gates and know I did my best and that it was enough"

Much like the MP5 thread, this is relevant to my interests - I just picked up an Aero M5 set and a MATEN set. M5 is going to be a 12.5" build (because why not?) while the MATEN will use a rifle barrel cut to 16". Curious to see where this thread continues.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful."

SPG posted:

Looking at a Sig 716... any thoughts  from our brethren?

The Sig 716 G2 DMR won a CANSOF program, IIRC, though who knows if Sig will keep the same QC for their mil/LE lines and their civilian lines, and I may have totally remember wrong, so... yeah.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

I made an impulse buy with the primary arms sale going on with Aero sets. Looking at keeping this short and handy as a general purpose do everything rifle hopefully keeping it light as I can. I’m planning on doing on of black hole weaponry’s 16” lightweight barrels as I have had good luck with their products and have really good pricing right now (true sporting arms for anyone looking). I’m torn on the handguard, I like the price of the aero and don’t necessarily mind the width but I didn’t care for the barrel nut and timing on the last build. BCG is also undecided.  Optic will be a 1-6 or 1-8, to start out probably one of the vortex strike eagles and see how I like it.  I’ll probably kick myself for not just building another 6.8 but I’ve always wanted a late frame AR and wanted a bit more horsepower then the 6.8. 

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Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

You knock the Larue, but their current upper deal is to die for. I've built my own off the MATEN sets, with a BA barrel. Very happy with the result, but if I had to do it again, I'd spring the for the Larue kit and order their lower after. I do find the .308 versions a little trickier to tune than theie .223 cousins. But I put mine together 7 years ago and I'd imagine a lot more parts are available these days.

Sinister posted:

Armalite DEF-10s were going for $725 about three weeks ago.  I've seen PSAs down around $500.

This is an older Armalite carbine I cobbled together:

Image result for sinister ar-10T carbine

Rifle-length gas, 16" Criterion hybrid, SLR rail.  Balanced, handles like a heavy 5.56 carbine.

Ive looked at the PSA’s and while their price is always attractive I haven’t found any impartial reviews saying anything good about them. Everything I’ve read is mostly negative which is a clue. I saw the Armalutes, too. And it was when I was getting 10 to 12 hours of overtime a week. I probably could have pulled that purchase off and remain married. 

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter

Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

I am very happy with my LaRue kit rifle.

As pictured, I have right around $3400 in it... which is LaRue's price for a 'complete' rifle (but it's naked).

Rifle kit (upper $1297.95 / lower $305.95)= $1603.90 plus Trij 2.5-10x56 ($806) = $2409.90 for complete rifle with optic.

I'd already had the suppressor ($700), mount ($101), and other stuff (MBUS set/bipod/mount/sling) ($180+/-).

I had a few stovepipes shooting suppressed but put an H3 buffer in it and that has solved them and it still locks open unsuppressed. POA/POI is within an inch suppressed/unsuppressed with TAP 168gr AMAX.          I'm satisfied.

 

 

______________________________________________________

"Somewhere out there, right now, someone is preparing for the day you both shall meet. How prepared will you be?"

I took too long to edit my above post....

Sorry SPDSNYPR... I just saw in your original post that you didn't want to build. The savings was well worth it, in my opinion, and it wasn't hard.

I'm doing a low light class in Mannford in June. I'm thinking that's semi-near you (if I remember right). If it is, maybe we can grab a cold one or a bite one evening.

Stay safe!

______________________________________________________

"Somewhere out there, right now, someone is preparing for the day you both shall meet. How prepared will you be?"

Sinister, what does the rifle you posted weigh? 

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Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

"Don't try to build an AR10," they said.
"They're way more finicky than AR15s," they said.

Unfortunately, they were right. This build took significantly more troubleshooting than any AR15 I've ever built. Had the idea for a 308 battle rifle and this is what happened.

Current parts list:
Aero M5 upper/lower set
Armalite A5-length buffer tube, standard AR15 carbine buffer, Tubb flat wire AR10 buffer spring
Magpul SL-S, K grip, MLOK handstop kit and rail panels.
Ballistic Advantage 14.5" barrel
SLR Rifleworks 13.5" handguard and adjustable gas block
KAK Industries bolt carrier group
Magpul MBUS PRO offset irons
Leupold Mk6 3-18x with H58 reticle
Surefire Ultra Scout in Haley MLOK mount
Surefire SOCOM brake

I initially started with the Aero Precision 308 carbine buffer tube/spring/buffer set and BCG. In this configuration, even with the gas block wide open, it wouldn't lock open on empty without a can mounted. With the can, it ran fine. That told me it was undergassed. Replaced the back end with the Armalite tube and Tubb flat wire spring and I was able to get it to lock open on empty both without and with the suppressor. However, it still had intermittent issues with brass not ejecting properly. Replaced the Aero BCG with the KAK BCG and that went away too.

Finished weight is somewhere around 9.5lbs. Without the optic or light, it was right about 8lbs.

Note so far from zeroing and putting groups down: this thing is more unforgiving of less than ideal fundamentals than any other long gun I've shot. Flinch a little or jerk the trigger a little and the shot will be noticeably off, much more than an AR15. My Larue PredatOBR isn't that bad, so I'm not sure it's just the caliber either. Maybe just that the blast is that much louder and closer to the shooter's face.

For this and other reasons, I call it the Blastmaster.





Stencil job:


Some of the better shot groups, w/ Prvi M80 145gr FMJ




With the can mounted, POI shift was half a mil down.


MV figures:

Now I'm tempted to do a comparison between my FAL and AR10.  Weight, barrel length, accuracy, recoil and reliability.  I think the FAL wins on reliability and weight sitting in the safe.   Once I got the gas system tuned on the FAL, I've never had a malfunction.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai posted:

Now I'm tempted to do a comparison between my FAL and AR10.  Weight, barrel length, accuracy, recoil and reliability.  I think the FAL wins on reliability and weight sitting in the safe.   Once I got the gas system tuned on the FAL, I've never had a malfunction.

Weight and BALANCE are two big considerations - for me the ergonomics on the FAL are abysmal for operation.  A mag change can be a fumble-F*cking exercise, but, having the charging handle on the non-firing side is a plus for me when prone or vehicle mounted (tighter spaces).

I enjoy the FAL's gas piston & operating system without having to have a buffer tube on the rear like an AR-10.  For the FAL this is a huge PRO & is great for stowability and working in tight places.

I carried a PARA FAL in Iraq for a few months as a 'truck gun' when outside the wire when running cache interdiction & roadway assessments and it served that role admirably.  Folding stock stowed the weapon well, and I KNEW if I needed to put rounds past 200m "IT" was capable.  It took me doing ALOT of training to become semi-proficient with it as the AR platform's ergonomics left a HUGE training scar on me!

A folding stock AK-47 (Tabuk) was better suited to vehicles and tighter buildings/culverts and I traded off/sold the PARA FAL on the local contractor "Weapons of War Bazaar".  (That was a fun time, being an EOD guy inspecting and bringing in explosive related items to the bazaar!)  Once we had vehicle mounted 240's & Mk-19's in overwatch they took over the longer shot necessities in mission planning.  But again, the AK ergonomics are another world compared to the AR's handling & operation drills!!! 

 

As far as .308 AR's go: I am still an advocate for the SMALL FRAME .308 AR's that are slowly gaining in popularity.

These Small Frame .308 AR's have more in common with AR-15's and vary in weight from 6-8 pounds versus 8-12 pounds for large frame .308's.

COLT Firearms MARC 901 - I don't know what the current status is, and a Colt web search revealed nothing... Started it all in 2012.

DPMS GII started it and is a good choice (I have one and enjoy it). On the market in 2014.

Adams Arms is selling a piston SF .308 (collaboration with DPMS)  (2015).

POF Revolution - Another offering in piston driven small frame AR's (2016) -I think this is the most promising design of all.

F4 Defense and their F4-X line under DPMS licensing (in .308 & 6.5C) (2017-2018)

Mega Arms was supposed to be producing a SF .308, but after being bought by ZEV there isn't much to see about that project.  (?)

 

  I am also an advocate of company designed & built weapons versus home built variety, as the .308 AR's parts are just too finicky with tolerances and what works with what, then factor in gas port size, gas system length, BCG mass, gas porting holes on the BCG which affect dwell time & lock up, as well as buffer mass and spring strength all playing their nefarious roles to hinder or support reliable operation with various ammunition (powder type, powder charge weight and bullet weight).

Just reading what some companies go through troubleshooting their own designs and collaborations with other parts suppliers is a NIGHTMARE for the home assembler!  (https://www.f4defense[dot]com/process-small-frame-ar-10-308-testing-day-1/)

 

 

For me the next evolution will be Small Frame AR's but in the 6.5 Creedmore and .260 REM calibers to capitalize on the best of both compact size of the small(er) frame and power or cartridges.

Or instead of playing catch up to the 1959 designed AR-10A platform, going in another direction based on the SCAR-17 or even perhaps something akin to the MCX in Small Frame .308/6.5C/.260Rem...?

 

 

~Will

 




 

 

   Anybody can blow something up, but to disarm anothers bomb, this is when talent, skill, bravery & LUCK will all determine "Success or Failure".  

 

Location: UTAH              Joined: 2003

All of my other precision guns have H58/59 reticles, so I wanted to be consistent. Plus I pulled that scope used for $1499. Can't argue with a deal like that!

 

I had previously been considering the eotech 2.5-10 with Horus reticle, but then someone pointed out that it was 28oz while this Leupold is only 23. And before that has been thinking a 1-8, but being given the offset irons at random made the 1x capability covered.

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