Did they sell out already?

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

According to Facebook they are not in stock yet

"a state is a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory." - Max Webber from Politics as a Vocation

As I said, If anyone needs me I will be stalking the LEAF Pro site.

Thanks for the heads up Logos.

That and all the Shot Show photos yet to come. At least I will be shooting for the entire time while everyone is at shot, not a bad thing at all.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

Here´s my view of "the perfect" assault sustainment pack.. Perfect, for My needs, that is.

The idea is that all the combat related stuff (extra mags, grenades) will be attached on the outside of the pack. The inside is mostly for gear that keeps me freezing my ass off (down jacket, extra socks, extra gloves) as well as for a hydration bladder and/or a radio.

4 Pals: Too narrow, 6 Pals: Too wide. 5 Pals: just perfect.







The upper attachment points are at the front of the vest, so it´s actually realistic to reach them and release the pack.. I will prolly attach the QASM´s a bit lower to keep them from interfering with the stock of my rifle



When i started designing this, i had all these grand ideas about a zillion external pockets, sleeve pockets for LAV´s and whatnot. But then i started thinking, what do i actually need? And i decided to keep this simple. (for now)

This is more or less a concept pack, so i will test this for a while, and then according to my observations, take this further..
Meh, that pack does nothing for me.

If they had either deleted that front pocket, or made it with the 3 external pockets like the ALICE, then maybe.

I'm going to be sticking with my med ALICE for now. I'll be sending it to TT for a storm flap, and MOLLE.
I just recently added a Spec Ops HUMP which hangs a 3l bladder in that empty space.

Overall It's a pretty versatile pack.
One of the best features of the ALICE pack were the three pockets IMHO. The GG pack, doesn't appear to be all that much different from the new Army Medium Ruck aside from the top loading and the mesh pockets within the two large pockets.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ON THE WWAAAYYY!!! followed by OH SHIT!!! means you won't be getting that promotion.

I wanted to bring back this thread for a couple of reasons. Number one was that during las weeks Manuver Conferance in discussing how the Infantry is preparing for the proposed intro duction of women into the Infantry.

 

12.4*  lbsUniform 

70.4*  lbsPPE 

19.3* lbs + <24 Hr Sustainment Load

102.1* lbs Total Approach March Load

 

Average Soldier Weight 188 lbs

Average Infantry SFC Weight 180 lbs

 

Soldier Load (Fighting)

Uniform 12.4 lbs

Boots

ACU

Multi tool

Rigger Belt

Patches

Patrol Cap

ID Tags

Undershirt

Gloves

Eye Pro Notebook

 

Personal Protective Equipment and Weapon (PPE) 70.4 lbs

 

IOTV w/ neck/groin protector

(Size Large)

Enhanced Small Arms Protective

Inserts (Size Large)

Enhanced Side Ballistic Insert set

with Side Plate Carrier

100 oz Hydration system ( With Water)

Fighting Load Carrier

30 round magazine pouch (3 x 0.25)

Hand grenade pouch (2) with (2) M67

Fragmentation Grenades

Lensatic Compass w/case

Individual First Aid Kit (IIFAK)

Mag light flashlight w/2 ea AA battery

Infrared signal beacon, PHOENIX

w/Battery

Ballistic Knee/Elbow Pads

Visual/Language Translator Card

Casualty Feeder Report/Witness Statement Advanced Combat

Helmet (ACH) Helmet Cover w/camouflage cover band

Night Vision goggle mounting plate

Ballistic Protection Goggles (ESS)

M4 Carbine w/fully loaded magazine

M68- CCO w/ battery

3 point sling

Back-Up Iron Sight M-4 RAS & Fwd Pistol Grip 5.56mm Magazine with 30 rounds each (6 ea) Sure Fire light w/ battery

PAQ-4C w/batteries

 

<24 hr Sustainment Load 19.3 lbs

Assault Pack w/ waist pack

2QT Canteen w/Cover and Sling w/water

Liner Poncho

Poncho

Improved Rain suit Top

Improved Rain suit Bottom

Neck Gaiter Meal Ready To Eat 1 ea (1.50/0.68 kg)

Undershirt moisture wicking x

1 ea Socks x 1 pr

Improved Cleaning Kit Flexi Cuffs (4 large per soldier)

Chemlight (2per)

Water purification tablets

Camo Face Paint

VS17 Panel (small)

 

So if we are saynig that soldiers basic load for 24 operations minus mission specific gear such as radios, crew served weapons, 40mm ammo ect. Call it 20 additional pounds +/-, so 122 LBS just to cross the LD on a average 188 lbs soldier. Going down to the plate carrier might bring it back to 102 as the average. Either way the solider is crossing the LD with more than 50% of their body wieght for a 24 hour operation. I'd also say that there are some obvious understatements like the soldier having a radion, PRC-148, LMR, PRC-152 or PRC-154. And of course the PVS-14/PVS-7 or ENVG's.

 

11B Physical Demands listed as

Constantly performs all other tasks while carring a minimum of 82 pounds, evenly distributed over entire body.

 

Frequently walks, runs, crawls, and climbs over varying terrain and altitude changes for a distance of up to 15 miles, during a 24 hour period, while carrying 103 pounds evenly distributed over entire body, after which Soldier must retain the ability to perform all other physical requirements.

State of the Infantry Brief

 

So my question is is the 72 hour load still the right model? Given the weight penalty the soldiers are carring should we not be looking at the structure of the Infantry Co's logisitcs to better support the squads and platoons, vs trying to make a better pack for the soldiers to carrier more shit in? Is a medium, or large ruck even still a valid requirement for GPF's?

 

 

Given the weight penalty the soldiers are carring should we not be looking at the structure of the Infantry Co's logisitcs to better support the squads and platoons, vs trying to make a better pack for the soldiers to carrier more shit in? Is a medium, or large ruck even still a valid requirement for GPF's?

 

We should be doing both: achieve a balanced load with the best pack AND improve the logistics support systems to avoid carrying the crap we do in the first place.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Logistics and support is where the war is won.

I work within a CAB so rotor wing shouldn't be an issue. I've had to take 1500-2200 lbs of recovery kit out to sites because no one was willing to give my team dedicated assets to haul our shit. So we were forced to take it all at once, verse packaging it as needed(go ball type). Painful lessons to learn.  

"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

 

Joined: 12/24/04    LOCATION : Moments away from BFG and DD

Has anyone seen a pack design that integrates a quick-release waist belt with a capable pack, so that the pack can be doffed by simply toggling the release and shrugging a strap off the shoulder?

 

I've been thinking a lot of late on the issue of waist belts not integrating with belt order, or other second and first line components.

 

I've seen packs with "detachable" waist belts, but they aren't the sort of item where you could carry 1st/2nd line items on it AND shuck the pack in a quick manner.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I've got an old Lowe LOCO pack that did that. There were two pins on the belt that secured the pack. You pulled the pins and then dumped the pack by quick releases.There is a piece of webbing sewn around the waist belt that you could secure ALICE pouches and grommets that I "assumed" you could wear a Y/H harness. It also has the built in repelling harness. I never used it that way myself.  

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

Hmmmn, that's very interesting.

I'm sure I saw that last SHOT Show, but didn't quite understand what I was looking at.

 

I can see problems with how we setup our belt order webbing, but that's an interesting solution, that bears more looking at.

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

It looks more than interesting.  More like the unicorn.

 

It figures that High Ground Gear would have developed a solution like the HG830.  That company is on the cutting edge of good designs that integrate the various bits of equipment the infantryman carries, in with the odd angles caused by body armor.

 

I took a look at the Lowe LOCO via a Google search, and ran across an interesting forum discussion about the LCS-84 as well: http://www.usmilitariaforum.co...type-rapelling-pack/

 

In the span of my continuous thinking about the 2nd/3rd line problem, and the issue of exceeding load carriage principles, the thorny problem of water carriage (as it relates to carrying issued hydration bladders in packs) lingers.  Trying to integrate any hydration carrier on top of body armor, and then a pack on top of the hydration carrier, is just a shit show waiting to happen.  You still see it happening, but not from any conscious decision that I can discern.

 

We make compromises as a result, but now I'm starting to think a wholesale return to belt order carry of 2nd line items is where it's at, and something like the HG830 system allows one to do it.  If we want to reduce the weight penalty we pay on our backs by using a waist belt and getting the load as close to and high on the body as possible, perhaps we should also be looking to transfer some volume off the pack body itself and onto the waist belt.

 

I think most of us would previously have said that's no bueno, because the items transferred to the pack's waist belt could be essential to actions after we've doffed the pack at the ORP or made contact with the enemy.  

 

The HG830, or a similar system seems to be a solution to that dilemma if the accompanying waist belt allowed for carriage of anywhere from 5-8 liters in volume of equipment or water.  Unless we are in a jungle environment I can't imagine plate carriers going away for a number of reasons, so there's a planning factor of between four to six magazines carried directly on the PC, with a GP pouch or two.  That could permit avoiding a belt chock full of pouches like some pics I've seen of PLCE when the soldier was sans armor, and get us back to some realistic expectation of comfort and endurance.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I took a look at the Lowe LOCO via a Google search, and ran across an interesting forum discussion about the LCS-84 as well: http://www.usmilitariaforum.co...type-rapelling-pack/

 

I have never been fortunate enough to get a Vector, but after much experimenting decided I still like the LCS-84 enough I got a spare off eBay (almost NOS good condition) I just stuffed in the attic in case. 

 

Layout is rather good. But, of course, I grew up on civvie packs so similar to this that my view may be distorted. Right side pocket fits a properly-rolled complete shelter half (on purpose?) and so handily fits any other individual shelter. Ski slots are great for carrying a Sven saw (again, 80s history pops up) and an E-tool. I like bottom zipper access, though some do not. Got a late-90s Eagle fannypack modular thingy that I dock to the front to get more organization. 

 

Top pack expansion thing (a la CFP-90) is way too big, heavy and silly for what it is. I keep a lightweight gray pack cover (civilian version of whatever the marines issue) in the tiny fixed flap pocket. Otherwise, volume is spot on for me. Wouldn't mind more compression for girth so I can carry light loads more effectively (higher, less floppy), but that's a nit. 

 

The contract LCS-84s are okayish built. Whole thing is a bit too heavy for what it is, but seems pretty strong. Except the harness suspension. Some design failures here, so I tore the plastic rail off one picking it up one day. Now, it's SO similar to other packs of that era I took a ruined civvie pack and some webbing and replaced it with a webbing-cenric ride/adjustment system that works great. 

 

Why do you think I follow threads like this so much? Never satisfied. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Thinking a little more about transfering weight to the waist belt, I realized a set of suspenders would be required or else the belt will be a mess.  You can get away with a pistol, ammo, and other 1st line items, but you cannot add water, ammo, or optics without the belt starting to slip off your waist.  So, the better system needs support.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I dug out my old LOCO pack to see what I could put on the belt. You are pretty much limited to four pouches two on each side. I put on a 1qt canteen 2 old mag pouches and an IFAK. Once you ditch the pack you could put a butt pack. The belt when worn with the pack doesn't work as well as the purpose built ones like on my Kifaru packs.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

You could also attach a buttpack to the HGG assault strap and keep it in your pack w/ water or whatever - so you could ditch the pack, attach the assault strap/buttpack, and be good to go. Also, using the HPG kit bag idea is one way to run admin/extra shit without interfering too much with the pack, unlike a full blown chest rig.

 

 

----

 

Ditch Medic

Joined: October 2009

Location: Washington State

What sort of load carriage system do hotshots use?

I recently saw pictures of some low-riding rigs that looked almost like a heavy canvas Yote.  It looks counter-productive to carry loads that way, but maybe it works well for them.

ETA:  Oops, looks like I should have run a google search.  Mystery Ranch produces several articles.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Anyone have hands-on experience with the Kelty Raven 2500 (aka 41) pack?

 

It has features and specs that seem to make sense, and Midway has some on clearance for about 50% off what the retail price shows on the Kelty website.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I tried attaching my BFG DAP pack to my PC this week as a trial, it worked out quite well. 

 

I used the attachment straps from my HW admin pouch to secure the 1" male SR buckles

 

Then I put 1" QASM female buckles on the cummerbund

 

The padded portion of the shoulder straps go over the PC shoulder straps and clip into the buckles behind the admin pouch

 

And the lower portion of the straps go into the QASM buckles on the CB 

 

I was very happy with how this rode, full 3l camelbak, big 100 bars, field stripped MRE, desert gore tex, cleaning gear, extra socks, boonie, clear lenses, bug juice and sun screen. 

Originally Posted by jcustisredux:
Working with my idea of an optimized assault pack loadout, I tried working up the features I'd like to see in a true assault pack.

In no particular order:

Detachable shoulder straps and quick disconnects that allow the pack to mate directly to armor. The direct attachment system needs to allow for the pack to be un-clipped, swung to the front, and returned to the back for re-attachment. I am not stuck on this feature, however, as being an essential must-have...yet. I'd have to work with an example a bit to make up my mind.

Top carry strap to allow it to be clipped into a tie-down point on a vehicle if not in use and worn.

2 channels x 6 rows of PALS on the sides, to allow for aerial pyro, silencer, hand smoke, Nalgene carrier, and M4 mag pouches.

Side (underarm routing) and top ports for hydration tubes and/or antennae, PTTs, handsets, etc..

No taller than the standard issued PCs, and certainly no wider.

12" x 12" x 3.5" utility pouch to allow for carriage of M18A1 APERS, 200 rd M249 drum, HIIDE device or TSE kit components. This would probably be better off as a section of the main compartment, since trying to stabilize the weight of these items on the beavertail could be problematic. Horizontal compression strap inside this pouch to allow for items to be secured.

Admin slot for notebook, pens, compass, miniature binos/monocular, GPS, NOD, etc.

Beavertail that allows for carriage of larger items such as a jacket, captured items, etc.

Bottom compression straps to allow for securing soft items such as a Ranger roll.

PALS across the front in a standard matrix.

Stays to allow for it to be conformed to the curve of the back plate.

Under $125.00. Start at that price point and work backwards, deleting features as required to stay under the ceiling.

If Eagle (hint, hint) ran PALS on the sides of the Yote, I think it would be the closest pack in existence to match the form and fit I'm thinking about.

I was thinking about load carriage a little bit to support an article about the topic of pack design, and came back here to update a feature that I think is a hard requirement on a 1st line "assault pack" and 2nd line patrol/72-hr pack.

A zippered opening on the inner bottom edge of the pack will allow for a quicker PRC-XXX battery change without the headache of doing it without one.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

j-

Absolutely! I said the same thing way back in 1998 when issued a LBT Radio pack for the older SINCGARS. I had to almost dump everything for changing batteries.

 

mercUSA

Joined: 12/26/02        

location:Retired 11B in southern AZ

I cannot for the life of me remember what it was, but I've seen a radio with a battery-eliminator sort of thing, and you can plug the battery in somewhere other than the bottom of the radio. Saw it used in a pack, and the battery had been routed to an exterior pocket (no cord passthrough so sadly the batt cable went outside for a tiny bit in this setup). Guy running this had the pockets next to it loaded with the spares so there was no fussing with the pack body. 

 

I know, blasphemy to say fix the radios instead of the packs  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Originally Posted by shoobe01:

I cannot for the life of me remember what it was, but I've seen a radio with a battery-eliminator sort of thing, and you can plug the battery in somewhere other than the bottom of the radio. Saw it used in a pack, and the battery had been routed to an exterior pocket (no cord passthrough so sadly the batt cable went outside for a tiny bit in this setup). Guy running this had the pockets next to it loaded with the spares so there was no fussing with the pack body. 

 

I know, blasphemy to say fix the radios instead of the packs  

I've seen that remote wiring TTP before, used in some of the early Mayflower rigs. 

 

Definitely one technique.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Anyone have experience with the T3 Hans pack, and if so, how does it fit in this equation? Seems like a decent design from the pics I have seen, but can't find much info on it.

 

http://www.t3gear.com/hans-backpack/

"Fuck your mom in her dirty whore mouth, you felching, obdurate, acerbic, petulant little enfranchised fucking twit. How's that for vocabulary, motherfucker?" ~ 5.56 Grave

 

Joined: 10-14-2003                                        Location: Indiana, USA

It is an oversized Yote-style bag (it's even missing a carry handle like the Yote ) and has the same options to connect it to an armor carrier.  Depending on source, the Hans is $100 to $130 more than the Yote, if you can even find a Yote in the color you need.

 

I did not see anything about it that made it "optimized for EOD operations", and I forget where I last handled one, but I'd probably buy it if I absolutely could not find a Yote.

 

ETA: I drifted into Ebay during this post, and the markup there is insane for Eagle gear.  $599 for a Yote?  I guess if you've got the money you can have  snazzy AOR2 bag.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Originally Posted by crazypaulie:

Just speaking about the Yote - AWS makes a really nice upgrade to the Yote. I would definitely consider it, especially for the price.

Any hands on with the AWS bag?  I'm definitely curious about it and the interior layout.

 

It's good to see they slapped a PALS grid on the side.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

It's the same internal layout as the Eagle design, but the beavertail can zip off. I think it's a 1:1 copy of an Eagle bag issued to sneaky people since AWS isn't usually known for innovative products.

 

Excellent bag, very versatile, and the PALS on the side and inside of the beavertail area is a great touch. I've used it as a 24hr(-) bag and also a vehicle go-bag and it's served well in those roles.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful."

I may sell off a Source 45L bag and pick one up.  Coyote is down to 120.00 if you're willing to do without the strap kit ($167.33 with kit) and deal with the arguably sketchy purchase and shipping process.

 

Unless the stitching is fundamentally crap, a bag under $200 and built with those basic qualities (slab sides as opposed to the Yote side pockets) is a good thing.

 

it doesn't look like it comes with a reservoir like the Yote, but who doesn't have at least one extra bladder and hose lying around?

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Originally Posted by jcustisredux:
Originally Posted by crazypaulie:

Just speaking about the Yote - AWS makes a really nice upgrade to the Yote. I would definitely consider it, especially for the price.

Any hands on with the AWS bag?  I'm definitely curious about it and the interior layout.

 

It's good to see they slapped a PALS grid on the side.

Internal layout is identical to the Yote. External there are extra daisy chains, removable beavertail, and molle on the sides. 

 

The stitching is perfect. I've never had an issue with AWS gear.

----

 

Ditch Medic

Joined: October 2009

Location: Washington State

Good grief AWS, take my money!

 

I saw your PM, and I'll let you know if anything gets to be a concern.  Thanks.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

My AWS "yote" styled pack came in and it is worth every damn cent spent.  It has a ton of features, a smart layout, and finally addresses the limitations I saw in the original Eagle Yote.  It's almost as if someone from AWS read this thread and took a ton of the best comments from you guys and built those features into the bag.

 

A video is worth a thousand words, so here's the layout, probably displayed by an airsofter, but it is a 360 deg overview:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKwyyHyRXaY

 

Improvements over the Eagle Yote:

 

-Removable beavertail

-3 column, 4 row PALS array on the sides

-slab-side pockets (approx 4" x 8") under the side PALS which can hold a 5.56mm PMAG, aerial pyro container, etc.

-4 column, 6 row PALS array sewn into the front panel and especially useful if the beavertail is removed

 

I could easily see a 117G series radio riding inside the pack if you added a couple of Nalgene bottle carriers to the sides.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Damn, that looks like an excellent bag

 

I've been using two similar bags recently, the Tyr Tactical Assaulters Sustainment Pack (Special Tactics) and the Platatac Bullock Echo pack

 

The Bullock Echo, while excellent, is very slightly too small.

 

Pros -

 

Sized well in terms of footprint - it fits perfectly on the back of a Mayflower APC. No overhang.

Helium Whisper backing is good, light and robust.

Layout of pack is excellent

Flat pocket behind side pouches, can slip flat gear in there.

Small flat internal pockets inside the main compartment (like the mesh pockets on the original raid, only sewn flat)

reasonably comfortable shoulder straps

 

Cons - 

 

The main compartment is about 2 or 3 litres too small. Even adding an inch to each dimension of the main compartment wouldn't really affect the overall size of the pack.

Forget fitting a 3litre camelback in the main compartment if you want to get anything else in.

The side pouches would be much better if they could fit a Nalgene bottle.

No zippered pocket on the flap of the beaver tail. 

 

The Tyr pack is larger, but still not 100% where I want it

 

Pros -

 

Sized well in terms of litre-age

Plenty of MOLLE all over - but no external sewn down pockets. I make this a pro, not a con. YMMV

MOLLE straps covered with backing plate

much better shoulder straps than the bullock

Zippered pocket inside beavertail

 

Cons -

 

Too much of a MOLLE footprint

Straps are too short while wearing armour

no pass through side pockets behind the MOLLE

No internal flat pockets like the bullock (Having used them on the other pack, I find them pretty useful, and now really notice they aren't there)

 

Neither pack has a removeable beavertail, I'm not too sure if that's a plus or not

 

If I can figure out if AWS will ship to the UK, I might try one of their packs. That video jcustis posted a link too was pretty handy

__________________________

I've been trying to find a review for the AWS version of the Yote for weeks and finally stumbled onto this thread  AFTER I said "fuck it" and pulled the trigger literally the hour before.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ON THE WWAAAYYY!!! followed by OH SHIT!!! means you won't be getting that promotion.

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