Defining assault and patrol pack requirements - 2nd and 3rd Line gray areas

Originally Posted by krax:

I've seen them in person, and they're nice. I just can't decide if it's nice enough to replace my Yote.

It is nice enough.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Right, I'm going to pull the trigger on the AWS pack. They've got a couple of other bits I'm interested in as well.

 

Having dramas getting in touch with them though. The "contact us" web form on their website doesn't submit, and the email address provided is a dead link also.

 

Anybody have a live email address for anyone at AWS? I'll phone if I have to, but transatlantic phone calls are never particularly cheap.

 

I need to to confirm whether they can ship international. 

__________________________

Yo mate...if it happens that they do not ship internationally and you do not have other options, PM me...I will be in London in mid-September to meet up with the missus and I think I can persuade her to bring it with her from the US (along with some other stuff I bought). 


 

Joined: 03 OCT 2006        Meatspace Coordinates: The Smoke

Kind offer, thanks. Just dropped you a PM.

 

I'll give them a ring next week and see what the score is ref. international shipping. I think they do, but their website isn't the clearest and like I say, lots of dead links.

__________________________

If you continue to have difficulties, try a PM to Plasticmag.  He assisted me in establishing contact to push my order through when I goofed up payment information.

 

He lives near AWS.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Originally Posted by jcustisredux:
Working with my idea of an optimized assault pack loadout, I tried working up the features I'd like to see in a true assault pack.

In no particular order:

Detachable shoulder straps and quick disconnects that allow the pack to mate directly to armor. The direct attachment system needs to allow for the pack to be un-clipped, swung to the front, and returned to the back for re-attachment. I am not stuck on this feature, however, as being an essential must-have...yet. I'd have to work with an example a bit to make up my mind.

Top carry strap to allow it to be clipped into a tie-down point on a vehicle if not in use and worn.

2 channels x 6 rows of PALS on the sides, to allow for aerial pyro, silencer, hand smoke, Nalgene carrier, and M4 mag pouches.

Side (underarm routing) and top ports for hydration tubes and/or antennae, PTTs, handsets, etc..

No taller than the standard issued PCs, and certainly no wider.

12" x 12" x 3.5" utility pouch to allow for carriage of M18A1 APERS, 200 rd M249 drum, HIIDE device or TSE kit components. This would probably be better off as a section of the main compartment, since trying to stabilize the weight of these items on the beavertail could be problematic. Horizontal compression strap inside this pouch to allow for items to be secured.

Admin slot for notebook, pens, compass, miniature binos/monocular, GPS, NOD, etc.

Beavertail that allows for carriage of larger items such as a jacket, captured items, etc.

Bottom compression straps to allow for securing soft items such as a Ranger roll.

PALS across the front in a standard matrix.

Stays to allow for it to be conformed to the curve of the back plate.

Under $125.00. Start at that price point and work backwards, deleting features as required to stay under the ceiling.

If Eagle (hint, hint) ran PALS on the sides of the Yote, I think it would be the closest pack in existence to match the form and fit I'm thinking about.

The AWS version of a yote does all this.  I found the Unicorn!  

 

A review on either the assault pack thread or the Stud Board will follow in a couple weeks when I get back from vacation.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Originally Posted by krax:

Same here, and please include a use for the daisy chain webbing on the front if you found one.

+1000. Been hiking around and climbing mountains for 30 years and have /never/ seen a truly good reason that bullshit exists. Supposed to be easier to clip a 'biner on, loop rope to carry more shit, etc. but never seen it used well and a strip of MOLLE could do that as well.

 

Also, see it used wrong all the time, so people stuff their ice hammers in there and then they fall out. Sadly, they notice so I have yet to take home a free ice hammer, etc. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Originally Posted by krax:

Same here, and please include a use for the daisy chain webbing on the front if you found one.

Biners with marking chemlights is the only thing I could figure would be worth any use in a fight, but unless it is rigged to swing forward like you did your Yote Krax, someone will have to grab it for you.

 

Other than that or a similar use, it's worthless to me. Shit dangling off of a pack invariably becomes a snag hazard.  Better to just have flat webbing there.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Originally Posted by krax:

Same here, and please include a use for the daisy chain webbing on the front if you found one.

Shock Tube & Mini-Tube gathered/looped and rubber banded fits nicely in there for breachers & Demo Dogs.

~Will

 




 

 

   Anybody can blow something up, but to disarm anothers bomb, this is when talent, skill, bravery & LUCK will all determine "Success or Failure".  

 

Location: UTAH              Joined: 2003

Review of the AWS yote is posted: https://www.lightfighter.net/to...ssault-pack-aka-yote

 

If you have ever wanted more from your hydration carrier and didn't neead all the bag available in a 3-day model, it will fill your needs.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I am dragging this from necropost land to see if my proposed 24-hr assult pack gearlist on post #14 has changed much, with new technologies and TTPs

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Wow this is some post.  What has changed.  Hmmm.  Well, from the big-picture end, we look at what has been learned from the GWOT, as far as what was needed by soldiers in the field.  So the question is if the tail is wagging the dog, or is logistics driving the mission.  Taking a look at it, today, it would seem that soldiers are basically carrying the same things as they were in WWII, as long as there is a reliable logistics tail.  The "3-day"  pack concept closely resembles the "haversack" from those days.  Not that there aren't always exceptions, especially "Special Operations" forces, who sometimes live out of rucksacks, for extended periods of time.  But on the whole, I think this latest conflict has reinforced some timeless concepts, such as realistic fighting loads, but has also given us some significant advances in materials and designs.

If we track from the end-user perspective, then you have to look at conventional soldier load-outs, then unconventional, and even civilians, insurgents, whatever label you care to apply.  I would submit that there is interest here in all three, but that depends on the individual.  So in essence, what kind of supply chain, if any, determines what you have to carry.  This would also include cache sites, or outside help, such as auxiliaries.

Starting with the conventional soldier.  Or a spec ops soldier in a conventional mode.  There have been some discussions  on other threads about this.  Namely the concept of taking a Medium ALICE sized-bag, and using a suite a detachable pouches, and a state of the art frameset to create basically a jack of all trades rucksack.  Used in conjunction with a "Yote" style assault pack, this would cover probably 90% of soldier needs.   Pushing out further, if you add in a Large ALICE sized ruck, then you could hump a bit more for those (hopefully) rare occasions when more is needed.  

The unconventional soldier would use essentially the same set up, but perhaps with different emphasis.  Here is where special missions might require special load outs that exceed the Medium ALICE sized bag more often than conventional forces.  Again depending on logistics train, type or source of re-supply.  And of course mission sets.  

The "insurgent" would be using basically the same set up as an unconventional solider, again depending on mission, but hopefully would have the home field advantage, with sufficient prior battle space prep.  Or some dependence on outside help, either from local auxiliaries, or foreign aid.  Or any combination of the above.

So from these three perspectives, whichever you may claim, we can discuss our ideal ruck system.  Keeping in mind, a lot depends on what kind of logistics train you have, whether you are mounted or not, and even whether you have to wear BA or not.  Not to mention weather, terrain, and enemy actions/capabilities.  There's an anacronym in there somewhere.                 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

As to the ruck system itself.  Ideally what I'd like to see is a system of bags, frames, and suspension that can be scaled to the mission at hand.  Starting with a "Yote" style assault pack as the minimum requirement.  Stiffener panel, shoulder harness, but with tabs for direct PC attachment.  Detachable beavertail for helmet cave or other gear.

External frameset.  Usable as either short or long back.  Slotted to accept Medium or Large bags.  Provisions for bottom shelf and back panel for out-sized objects.  

Medium bag.  Roughly Medium ALICE-sized, with provisions for external pouch attachment as needed.   Also provisions for detachable internal back panels.  Can be used as a stand-alone internal pack, or attached to external frame.

Large Bag.  Roughly Large ALICE-sized, with same provision as Medium bag.

Pouch suite.  Per customer requirements.  Some suggestions might be long side pouches.  Medium sustainment pouches for back.  Large "basha" sized pouch for back.  "Claymore" pouch for top lid.  

Shelf/ back panel.  A system for carrying MG, Mortar, Javelin, and Gustav stuff.  Any out-sized stuff that can't be carried in a pack.  Maybe even in conjunction with an assault pack.

Internal panels.  For radios, batteries, even mortar rounds, with the objective to get heavy objects close to the back.    

Materials.  Light weight as possible.  Going down into 500 d, even 330 where doable.  Even into the lighter laminated stuff.  Polymer frames.  

Design.  Ergonomic suspension system.  Minimum use of hardware, Velcro, zippers, and elastic.  Simplicity.  Balance between bomb-proof and prone to failure.  Just enough.   Useable with both belt kit, and chest-mounted LBE.  Also with BA.             

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

As to state of the art, I am seeing at least two vendors who are making some very promising kit.  First off is Crossfire from Australia.  I really like their polymer frameset for the DG-16, and also a smaller one for the DG-3.  This design is a cross between an internal and external frame, giving you the best of both worlds.  It is also adjustable from short back, to long back design.   

Their bags are really good as well.  They use a tab system to integrate the bag and suspension into the frame.  They are also looking at a scalable set of bags for different missions, as well as convertible internal/external frame designs.  They currently have a Large ALICE sized bag and a Medium ALICE-sized bag in the works.

A-Pak, or Attack Pak has some very innovative designs as well.  They have done some nice design work in packs designed to work with belt kits, with various sized bags, including roughly sized Medium and Large ALICE.  They are internal designs with an ALICE style top shelf, for use with an external frame.  

If you combined these two, you'd get a pretty good system of convertible internal/external rucks.  If the Crossfire rucks had provisions for internal frames (which I think they are working on), and the A-Pak had provisions for tab attachment to external.          

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Just a thought.  If the space for BA on the DG-6 could be used for an assault pack as well, then you truly could drop rucks, as in contact front, and have your assault pack still with you.  That would be ideal, in some instances.  I'm thinking on patrol, with a Large ruck, where you could instantly drop it, and fight.  If it was some time before you could get back to the large pack, you would at least have bare essentials for a day or two.  This may or may not apply to you.

The trick would be in getting that concave space just right.  And moving your water bladder as someone reminded me.  

I know this has been tried before, but, I think the newer, more square-shaped bladders, in perhaps a more square-shaped assault pack might make it finally work, along with the right external frame.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

That was a thought I had years ago, but the space won’t be big enough for a useful assault pack load without sacrificing too much in load stability and ergonomics. 

 

What Crossfire was looking at years ago, was a fixed hard case water bladder to aid in water management. 

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

As an update, looks like MR has their new stuff on the street.  The updated NICE frame (NICE II?) and the updated mil-packs, like the Jump Overload, Mountain, and 6500.   Since my buddy is looking on scoring one of these, it will be a nice head-to-head comparison.  It will be fun(?) since we can check out actual mil loads, take them up the local mountain, and see what's what.

I'm looking forward to that cuz once I get the complete system from Crossfire, I think it's gonna shine out there.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Ignore the annoying dude getting the chubby over a pack for his keyboard, but just imagine if you could arive at the ORP, zip off the assault pack and keep moving to the OBJ by simply deploying the stowed straps (or direct connect to armor).

It would likely require the same amount of time as disconnecting an assault pack from the front or top of the main pack by straps and buckles, and make about as much noise.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CDo7rqKEjkY

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I've been thinking for a while about a system of bags and packs that incorporates the principles that you and others have outlined in this thread for a while, while trying to solve a few problems.  It's by no means 100% worked out, and I don't know how well it'd work in practice, but here's what I have so far.

I really like the idea of using zips to integrate the different components--actually, Diz modded his AWS yote with AVS zips and tuck tabs so it could be zipped on and off, so there's that.  I think it makes sense to use zips (AVS, Tyr, whatever) on the pack and the rear plate bag, so you can easily stow the assault pack or panel on the main pack and then remove it and attach it to your plate carrier.  It's a much slicker way to direct-attach than fastex, webbing, repair triglides, and shit like that.  Diz was talking about a base bag with a suite of pouches to increase capacity, and you could use zips and tuck tabs for that too.

Think about this:  you have a medium-ALICE sized main bag, say 40l, except it's just one big teardrop with a flat flap, no external pockets.  Where the three outside pockets would be, you have 3 zipper sets (idk if they'd fit, you could def. do 2 tho), and one on the top flap.  Plastic external frame w/load-bearing waist belt, whole thing optimized to play nice with plates, doesn't extend above head to allow fighting in the prone.  Basically, a 3-day patrol pack.  By zipping in more pouches, you could easily expand capacity (like the Brits do with their "rocket" pouches) to support longer duration or heavier loads.  And they could also support other stuff like medic bags, or the other system components like assault packs, when not being used to expand capacity.  Ideally this is what they'd usually be being used for.

The other system components I'm not sure about.  I was thinking traditional assault pack, around 1000 cubes, and a hydration back panel, around 300.  I tried the yote but wasn't a huge fan--with the beavertail loaded up I felt like I was pushing the weight way further away from my body than it needed to be (if it was in a more standard form factor pack), but with just water and some other stuff it felt too bulky to keep on all the time as part of the fighting load.  That's why I'm thinking smaller for a dedicated hydration+cargo back panel and larger for a dedicated, full-on assault pack.

Back panel:  supports 2l bladder, lightweight tuckable shoulder straps source style, top external pocket can take inserts to optimize for specific uses (bangers, padded monocular pouch, whatever), lash points on bottom to allow ponchos or jackets to be strapped on, packable mesh beavertail.  Still small enough to carried unobtrusively all day, should fit in the hollow of the pack frame.  Not to support 24hrs of operations, just to give a little extra storage space.  Hydration+cargo, not the other way around.

Assault pack:  you've seen it before, there are billions of options to choose from.  Pick your poison.  If you wanted to carry a load like you'd have in a fully-loaded Yote, it could be put in here, and the pack could be compressed a little if need be.  Imo, if you have to deal with the obtrusiveness of the Yote, it might as well be in a more comfortable form factor.  I liked how the beavertail gave expansion space for cold weather clothing, so one could be added here.  I'm also a fan of waist straps just to keep the thing tethered to your body and from bouncing all over the place.  Could be zipped into the top flap sort of like a lid for storage and admin movements (Diz pointed out to me that it wouldn't work great as lid, so just consider it as being in the same location, not the same function).  As for working with this and the back panel?  Idk the answer.  You could zip it on the inside, to keep the weight close to you, with the thought process that anything you need in that you'll need in the assault pack, or you could zip it to the outside.  Or maybe it could have a curved frame sheet to make a little room for it underneath.

Tyr did something similar to this, their Jungle ruck has zips on the front for their back panels, and they made a back panel that can expand like a flatpack and has a packable beavertail.  Direct Action's new pack has them too.  It's the same idea, just not quite as scaleable.  I think the concept above would be a good way to get a complete pack system that gives you all the different "layers" you could want in a way that fits together well, without sacrificing individual component usability (like with a rocket pack).  But it's just an idea.  What do you think?

Lane alert:  airsoft player, don't do this for a living, everything I say is to be disregarded

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