Defining assault and patrol pack requirements - 2nd and 3rd Line gray areas

quote:
I think it should be broken down into a few packs,


This is pretty much the way I see it as well.

In some ways we're already there. We just need to substitute what's in the system for something that fills the roles better.

Hydration carrier with additional cargo capacity: swap out the existing hydration carrier for one already on the market. There are plenty of good ones out there. Getting this piece of gear right really matters.

To me there is no gray area on this item. The hydration carrier is very solidly in second line territory. It's part of the fighting load.

Middle pack (assault/3-day/patrol... nomenclature is killing this concept) swap out the Jansport for something that doesn't suck. It will get used way more than the large ruck. Getting this piece of gear right really matters.

Field ruck: frankly, form factor is simply not a major issue. We don't fight with these, they're just carried from place to place. Pick it up, hump it, put it down, do what you came here to do. While it's nice to have a good pack, we don't need the perfect pack for this application.

ALWAYS challenge authority.

quote:
Originally posted by roymorrison:
Well speak up man! Personally, I used the SATL for long operations, and MR 3 day pack for shorter operations.

If I was just going out to do something with line squads for the day, typically I would just throw a tiny osprey mountain climbing pack that I spray painted into the back of someones truck.

I had a ton of stuff that I was always carrying (try building a good urban hide site out of what you can stuff into a "day pack" haha) which is why the big bags were necessary. Would've been nice to just have one bag that I could've expanded as I needed.


Ditto, actually started this after you gave your impressions on the SATL. Ahh the search for the perfect do all bag continues. So far, the combo has worked out extremely well, however I haven't found a use for the SATL much since I got it... not many long term OP's out here right now. Ditto also on the "bunch o' shit" for constructing urban hides as I discovered quickly.


The biggest thing that I like about the Crew Cab, minus the bulky NICE frame, is that its the only one so far that will actually be usable for different load sizes, without sagging if not filled with an appropriate amount of shit. That and odd shit is easily carried for, something many people who have humped LLDR's have come to realize is difficult to do and still have enough room to pack water, food, and equipment.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

Chris you have very succintly summarized what I've been trying to say in this thread, and very well.

It's time for me to break out MS Word and do some writing.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I don't have the time to do the research (hint, hint, Gazette writer,) but I think we've all done things with smaller packs (3-day, assault, patrol, day...) that might normally be expected of a large ruck.

Here's my thesis: The "medium" (3-day, assault, patrol, day...) pack currently fills 75% of the missions and operational roles that the (main) ruck pack was designed for.

I just made that up, but I'll bet it could be backed up with some informal polling.

Proof in numbers: determine the cubic volume of something like a RAID or Kifaru Marauder type pack (pick one and use that as your "control") and compare it to the internal volume of the MOLLE, ILBE, ALICE. Express that as a ratio or percentage. Then factor in the ability to add pouches to bring the RAID/Marauder type pack closer to parity with the ruck. See if the numbers support the thesis.

Obviously, add on pouch volume is a little harder to determine, not least because there are so many aftermarket and in the system, but you could use something like the volume of a sealed MRE to substitute for actual pocket volume. Does that make sense?

ALWAYS challenge authority.

TO dovetail off of what Chris is saying about potentially jacked up nomenclature, here are a few snippets from a couple websites:

About the MR S.A.T.L. (3650 cu in):

INTENDED USE:
SOCOM ASSAULT RUCK (Hmmm, assault ruck...)

MR NICE Skiritai BVS (2400 cu in):

INTENDED USE:
ASSAULT PACK, DAYPACK

Camelbak Talon-Jump (1820 cu in)

"It is designed to carry your mission critical, “combat light” load and to carry your odd-shaped, must-haves with ease." - I know what is meant by combat light, but I like clean, doctrinal terms, and that isn't one. Big Grin

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

"Assault Ruck" does not sound like like the right pairing of equipment to the mission. How about you drop the ruck at the ORP, go on the assault and then come back and retrieve the ruck? "ORP Ruck" wouldn't sound as sexy... just this has-been's opinion. Frown

ALWAYS challenge authority.

Army's 72-hr mission pack

I've seen the Army's 72-hr pack referenced in the above thread, but can anyone point me to what the assault pack (argued by some as too small - but that's because the 72-hr deal wasn't around) looks like?

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

The issue "assault pack" is simply the MOLLE one, at least that's the one I've always seen issued the most. In Italy we did issue the LBT Ranger Assault Pack for awhile as well (don't remember if they still were when I left). And I would agree the MOLLE pack is too small, which is why I've never used it.

LGOP: a small group of "pissed-off American paratroopers" who are well trained, armed to the teeth, and lack serious supervision. They collectively remember the commander's intent as, "March to the sound of guns, and kill anyone who isn't dressed like you ..."

Is this packing list:
quote:
ASSAULT PACK:
-detachable straps and quick connects that allow it to mate directly to armor
-100 oz bladder
-NOD with xtra batts
-cleaning gear for primary weapon
-basic hygiene kit to brush the carpet off your teeth and shave (I'm not stuck on this though
-warming layer top (for a potential stay in a cold ambush site)
-wet Wx top (we have a decent top, but it could stand to be lighter and a better performer)
-ability to strap on a Ranger roll or jungle bag rolled in a bivvy (for use with the sleep shirt in a potential harbor site if the op somehow runs another 24 hours and the Wx dictates
-1 DOS chow, based off a caloric intake that someone thinks critically about, considering a burn rate that is in turn based off of weather, exertion rate, and mission load
-One of the following, but not two or more: 100 rounds 7.62mm/maybe 200 rounds 5.56mm / claymore complete / two extra smokes/two extra grenades / contents of a CLS bag (I'm not stuck on this, as I admit I'm not up to date on what primary components are a minimum requirement) / 2x PRC-152 batts (the radio needs to be on the body) or 1x 5590 equivalent / mission specific tool: BATS/HIIDE or camera or thermal observation device, etc. / small demolition load / leader's tool like an admin pouch with planning tools, notetaking gear, etc. / limited TSE equipment specific to that TSE member.

something you'd see guys carrying all the time regardless off mission? If so, it fits into 2nd line. I like it. Some of that packing list was carried in the butt pack in the LBE days and for a reason.

My YOTE is pretty close to that list with some exceptions/modifications:
-Wet WX top is replaced with a windshirt. For me, a PCU Lvl IV or a civi OR windshirt. Either way, smaller and lighter than a full-on jacket.
-Warming layer is a thin long-sleeved t-shirt. Used to be a bulky polypro top in the old days.
-Both of the above are removed in really hot climates and replaced with more water.
-Typically only 1-2 liters of water.
-Food consists of a 5-hour energy, gels, Clif/Pro bars, maybe jerky. Nothing that requires any prep
-Tiny mylar space blanket. Only for emergencies, not comfort.
-No hygiene kit. Not really survival or fighting related.

The expandable portion of the Yote is reserved for mission-specific gear like you mentioned.

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

quote:
-Wet WX top is replaced with a windshirt. For me, a PCU Lvl IV or a civi OR windshirt. Either way, smaller and lighter than a full-on jacket.
-Warming layer is a thin long-sleeved t-shirt. Used to be a bulky polypro top in the old days.


In a perfect world, the wet Wx top would be lighter and better than the one we currently have in the USMC, so you are on track there.

My current warming layer is a capilene(sp?) coyote brown half zip, very lightweight shirt that does good service as a sleep shirt and layer at the halt, when properly worn against the skin.

Yes, it's a 2nd line specification, standard loadout, minus a tweak or two that you have mentioned regarding extremely hot Wx in known climates where hyping out is very remote. It doesn't take much to get there mind you, so the threshold has to be mandated and closely followed.

On my last deploy, Cliff bars and a few odds and ends from a FSR were all that I carried in either my Ambush or my RAID. Lighter, quicker to get into my system (or so it felt), and better calorie/oz. ratio (again, or at least I thought so). Plus, they were issued at the DFAC all the time, and I didn't have to get them through care packages or anything. Back in the day, a complete MRE was standard for the buttpack, along with the poncho and sometimes other random BS, like the angle head flashlight. Remember that silliness?

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Never had to carry a poncho, but I did have to carry a pair of boot socks. I don't carry a pair of socks around in my 2nd line (2.5?) anymore.

The windshirt really isn't a true replacement for a good hard shell. If you know it's gonna rain, you should pack a real shell.

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

quote:
Originally posted by jcustisredux:

In a perfect world, the wet Ex top would be lighter and better than the one we currently have in the USMC, so you are on track there.

My current warming layer is a capilene(sp?) coyote brown half zip, very lightweight shirt that does good service as a sleep shirt and layer at the halt, when properly worn against the skin.

Back in the day, a complete MRE was standard for the buttpack, along with the poncho and sometimes other random BS, like the angle head flashlight. Remember that silliness?


How does it compare to say the hard shell jacket from the Gen III ECWCS? The hard shell from that is very thin and lightweight. I used to keep mine in the panel pouch of my Marauder.
Gen III waffle shirts were my most used piece of snivel, also fairly lightweight and compressible.

Never did the Cliff bars, but a large order of Gu packets and Camelbak Elixir did a lot when combined with either FS/MRE components, trail mix, or the peanut butter crackers my grandmother always sent.


Those days sucked. I'm glad they're gone (hopefully no one tries to bring em back)

LGOP: a small group of "pissed-off American paratroopers" who are well trained, armed to the teeth, and lack serious supervision. They collectively remember the commander's intent as, "March to the sound of guns, and kill anyone who isn't dressed like you ..."

quote:
Gen III ECWCS


I'm not sure, but from the pics I have seen, I think it is very similar. I know it is a rapid departure from the old Goretex we used to be issued, and significantly thinner (guess that's where the sub-layers comes in).

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Gen III ECWCS is leaps and bounds ahead of Gen II, but they fucked up the windshirt. The Gen III rain jacket is the better choice for the always-have layer. It doesn't really matter which warming layer you're bringing, but I think the combination of a (dry) thin layer and less-breathable jacket is pretty damn good for the weight and bulk. The layers that actually keep you comfortable are better off in the patrol or approach load.
quote:
Those days sucked. I'm glad they're gone (hopefully no one tries to bring em back)

Unless you're referring to the old flashlights, I actually like the idea of individuals carrying a minimal amount of items that get them through when the mission goes long or the infil/exfil is longer than a 40yd dash..

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

My mentioning of the waffle shirt is because, at least for me, it works in a very wide range of temperatures, so it's benefit is in more versatility than just comfort.

Minimal amount of items, but there's also times when some of those packing lists and loadouts got a bit retarded when people put things on the list to put them there rather than what was needed. (That's what my comment was in reference to.)

LGOP: a small group of "pissed-off American paratroopers" who are well trained, armed to the teeth, and lack serious supervision. They collectively remember the commander's intent as, "March to the sound of guns, and kill anyone who isn't dressed like you ..."

For those who have a Yote, does it mate to a plate carrier without too much drama, like a lot of noticeable and annoying droop?

I've been thinking that a plate carrier of average dimensions to cover an ESAPI should be the standard size to which an assault pack has to be attached.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Speaking well outside of my lane, but the attachment points on both ends of the straps on the Yote look like they were practically made for this application. They put D rings in all the right places...

Anybody remember the old Eagle Hydropacks from a decade or so ago? They had a similar setup where straps were completely removable and metal D rings on all four corners.

ALWAYS challenge authority.

I ran mine attached to a Mayflower APC during the EAG Shoothouse class in GA. I didn't notice any sort of flop. Mine hung a bit below the armor (more PALS on the Yote than the APC). WoTan556 had an Eagle MAP on the back of his plate carrier and elected to leave the top row of PALS or so on his MAP empty, allowing the bottom to sit even with the bottom of his armor. Keep in mind that my Yote in this situation didn't have the same kind of load that it did downrange. And downrange I didn't run it attached to my KDH, but I imagine so long as you're not putting major loads in it (our ABs were known to put 240 ammo bags in the expandable portion), you should be fine.


It seems to me that in addition to the typical thoughts of 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line, we've essentially set up a similar concept with packs.

LGOP: a small group of "pissed-off American paratroopers" who are well trained, armed to the teeth, and lack serious supervision. They collectively remember the commander's intent as, "March to the sound of guns, and kill anyone who isn't dressed like you ..."

quote:
It seems to me that in addition to the typical thoughts of 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line, we've essentially set up a similar concept with packs.


Indeed. Chris and I have been exchanging PMs back and forth on this. Assault packs are basic fighting load stock (1st line). Patrol/72-hr/multi-mission packs are 2nd line stuff, and rucks/main packs are 3rd line.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I'm playing with attaching the Yote to my armor. I won't MOLLE it to the back because then I can't access it myself or take it off to sit in a vehicle. I was able to attach it the way the Ares Amor pack attaches and it's pretty good so far. I'm using QASM buckles on the front of a Mayflower APC (facing up) and repair buckles on the sides.

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

Yeah, the way that Ares Armor rig is able to hook up like that is pretty neat. I may go down there after work this week to check it out in person and ask a few questions.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

You know, I haven't made the point to get down there, but I will probably drift down there this weekend.

That reminds me, could you post a pick or two of how you mated that Yote to your armor?

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

quote:
Originally posted by Desert01:
Back of the napkin layout of the ruck:

Frame for referance sake based on a a MR NICE or Downeast 1609 "like" frame.

Bottom to top lay out:
1. "Mission Module" similure in size to the TT First Responder bag or Ammo Bag Detachable to use as a "Butt Pack" docked on the back of the armor for Actions on the OBJ. This pouch might not issued as part of the ruck as Differant Specdial Teams would need specific pouches, only the CUBE would have a base line.
2. Approch Pack. Pack has PALS on the sides for varoius special equipment. A "Beaver Tail" on the back for bulky itmes like MTR, 84mm, M-72 rounds, tripods, base plates, ect. Out side of beaver tail has row of PALS for attaching a "Bivy" sack pouch and an ADMIN Pouch. No more.
3. Inside removable pouch for a radio that can be docked into the back of the armor. Again referancing TT like the ASIP Radio Pouch
3. Bag sized at about the size need to put the packing list you have posted above for the A-Pack, Minus the Ranger Roll which is mounted on the outside.


This might be of interest as it seems a similar product is already out there. http://www.reconmountaineer.co...nMountaineerSLMS.pdf

I've wanted one for a while, but they haven't done a run in quite some time apparently. Guess they're doing well enough with the CLS bags.
The issue with the Recon Mountaineer design is that the assault pack is attached a good ways away from the wearer's center of gravity. Not cool when the assault load is commo gear, MG ammo, or optics.

I'm really digging the idea of modules carried in a cargo panel/load sling on a good frame. Kifaru actually shows theirs attached to a MOLLE frame, so it's not necessarily a far-off solution. With everything contained in separate bags/cubes, you give guys with smaller special equipment loads the option of ditching the big framed pack, while allowing RTO's, mortars, etc. to ditch the bulk, but keep the frame. I've said it before, but carrying a small commo ruck on a real frame is tits.

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

quote:
Is there any merit to the BFG Overlord filling the "patrol" pack function, with a BFG Micro piggybacked into the beavertail to fill the "assault" pack function?


Krax, I read what you mentioned above, right after I revisited the blurb from Tack above. I've had this context in my mind of using an assault pack versus a patrol/3-day pack, based on mission, and not in the context of using an assault pack IN TANDEM with a patrol pack, where the user moves to the ORP, sets security, and then employs the assault pack to move further forward and conduct the next phase of the mission (objective surveillance, assault, contact patrol to a village, movement-to-shura, ambush, etc.). I think we need to consider that flexibility.

Desert01 just shot me an email that lays out a concept for an assault load (he uses a different term), and it looks a lot like the back of a shortened H-harness/belt order concept, except it doesn't ride on the waist, but on the bottom and kidney areas of armor, where their often is unused space. Distributing load to those areas has to make it ride easier on the wearer, thus a win.

I guess we could set the assault pack inside the patrol pack. I'm not sure that shifting the center of gravity further away from the body (when an assault pack is docked on the outside), without benefit of a rigid frame, would endear that patrol pack to the wearer after a few klicks, armor or not.

I can zip bergen side pouches to my Karrimor Sabre 45, and unzip them, connect them to a yoke, and use them as a field expedient assault pack. I'm not sure if that was the intended function, and it's fairly crude, but it probably gets the job done in typical Brit fashion. My whole point is if the additional assault pack load was spread somehow around the sides, top, or bottom of a patrol pack, zipped off and then tossed over shoulders or clipped in to one's armor, we might be able to avoid the COG issues. Without a perfect combination of straps, COG, and maybe even potential waist belt relief, patrol packs can still suck on a long movement; keeping the COG in our favor would seem to be important.

As an aside, I had a conversation with the OIC of our Basic Reconnaissance Course, and he confirmed that the standard for long-duration reconnaissance ops is 7 days. You might be down to the guts of one MRE a day and filtering your water, but they plan for 7 days. That's where we have transitioned well into our concept of the 3rd line of packs...the ruck.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I was browsing the assault pack reference thread, and although most of them are 3-day packs, juma had this little Israeli gem that he put up, and it looked like a decent size overall for what I've been talking about in terms of a pack you need for the objective, or a very limited patrol.

Source Assault 10

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Spliting the load is always an issue. Back in the dark days we carried our main packs and the assault packs straped on top. did it with the Lowe rucks we had, large ALICE packs and the MOLLIE rucks. In each case we were running an "Assualt Pack" in the range of 2,000 CU basicly a 3 day pack, on top of a full sized ruck.

Hence why I used the term "Objective Load Carrier ("TM")". Consitantly the perception of the term "Assault Pack" is overly large. Limiting the CU so it will only allow for mission gear changes how you think. Again for the Objective Load I need the gear for 3-5 HOURS, but could streach to 24. When you think of it that way you don't realy need a lot of shit. The spread of the CU I have should also help with COG issues. One of the secondary purposes is to eliminate extra straps being wrapped around the Soldiers body from special mission gear.

I don't believe you can efficently carry a pack inside a pack. Given how some loads are wedged into your "Patrol" Pack attempting to get it in and out at night in the rain, under fire isn't something I'd like to attempt.

Thanks for the feed back.
It'll be a minute on the pics, but the overall setup is pretty close to what you see in the video Ares put up. The only "modifications" made were removing the upper (padded) portion of the Yote shoulder straps and and adding a short strap with a male fastex in its place. The APC came with QASM buckles, I just flipped them and added female repair fastex buckles to the cummerbund. Ten minutes total work and I feel dumb for not doing it earlier. I've had a pair of the QASM vertical adapters from Down Range Gear for a while, it the light bulb never went off. I could have used QASM buckles on the sides, but the repair buckles allowed me to sneak them between pouches.

Hope that helps until I can do the pictures.

 

Know what you know; Know what you don't know. -Paul Petzoldt

I think it used to be a "Patrol Pack" - Becker style or the British Northern Ireland style, was a top loader. Whereas the Assault pack was more Raid style, with a zip.

I tend to see an assault pack as being 24-48 hours.

Patrol Pack 3-5 days

Recce Ruck 5-10 days.

Depending upon tactical & environmental influences.

-------------------------------- Freedom - Isn't Free My only worry about death is that my wife will sell my gear for what I SAID I paid for it..... My greatest worry about life - is that she'll find out what I did pay for it.....

Y'know what would be bitchen(or maybe I just think so because I'm sitting on staff duty bored out of my mind) is if we could get something like the MR crewcab, but backwards. Or inside out Confused

What I mean is, the high volume stuff on the outside, around a "channel" for the assault pack. Keep the mission essentials, heavy stuff, close to your back, and the non essentials, light weight, further out from COG.

Get to your ORP/RP and stage rucks, release a couple buckles and pull out the assault pack.

What I'm thinking is like the sniper packs with rifle scabbards in the back, only for your assault pack.
quote:
Originally posted by senorlechero:
Y'know what would be bitchen(or maybe I just think so because I'm sitting on staff duty bored out of my mind) is if we could get something like the MR crewcab, but backwards. Or inside out Confused

What I mean is, the high volume stuff on the outside, around a "channel" for the assault pack. Keep the mission essentials, heavy stuff, close to your back, and the non essentials, light weight, further out from COG.

Get to your ORP/RP and stage rucks, release a couple buckles and pull out the assault pack.

What I'm thinking is like the sniper packs with rifle scabbards in the back, only for your assault pack.


You should be able to do something like that with the MR Kingcab or the Kifaru frame w/cargo panel that Krax referenced (above). You could have low-weight stuff attached to the outside (using Kifaru pods, for example), heavier sustainment items on the inside sitting at the bottom, and an assault pack on top of that.
I always thought the Mystery Ranch Nice Wolfpack looked like the ideal way to go. The system consists of three basic components: a NICE frame w/BVS, a main packbag roughly equivalent to the 4000 CI SATL w/ daypack lid, and a modular sustainment carrier that attaches under the main bag if desired. The MR daypack has good straps and is generally sufficient for any individual load you'd need for immediate use beyond the ORP. The SATL was good for 3 days worth of afghan crap (w/batteries, food, and water), and a modular sustainment load which attaches directly to the frame would allow for organized pre-stage and delivery should that contingency become necessary...

NICE Wolfpack
Hummmmm....

The Wolfpack has potential, but I think it's still way to large. Here are some important points to me. They MAY well be totaly out to lunch, but I've recived enough feedback that I MAY be onto something.

Baseline for requirement assumptions:

1. Future conflicts will be fought predominately by soldiers wearing body armor.
2. Due to the weight penalty for the body armor sustainment loads over 50-70 lbs (not including the weight of body armor) can not be carried routinely by soldiers.
3. Soldiers have requirements to carry Special Team/Mission Equipment (10-20 lbs included in the sustainment load figure) such as radios, CLS Bags, breaching equipment, demo, pyro, ect on their person for short term missions such as Actions on the Objective or Presence Patrols.
4. Hydration sources such as the ubiquitous Camelbak further complicate methods for transitioning loads from 3-5 day sustainment loads to 3-5 hour fighting loads.
5. Longer duration missions or those in adverse weather conditions require revisiting how soldiers are sustained. May mean that units with these type missions may not wear armor.

If my assumptions are correct, then you have to re-look how we define the loads. Since everyone has a certain frame of referance for what an "Assualt Pack" is/isn't delete the term from your discription and try to make a clean slate.

I've got some rigging issues to work out btu, I've been rucking the concept with some success for a few days. Of course thats not quite the same as actualy having soldiers use it and being able to "F" it up. Also not the same as making a product that anyone could use, just an ideal.

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