Benton Quest posted:

May I recommend just driving around with the gun in your hand?

 

You know what they say, "The quickest draw is to already have the gun in your hand."

Holsters are for report writers.

OK, so I have been following this subject outside of the forum in the periphery. My initial reaction to an after market belt mount was not very favourable. It was tempered when I saw that Safariland was coming out with a new UBL to address the issue. My initial skepticism was based on experiences I saw when members of my previous unit (UOF - LE) were starting to deviate in teaching to wear the duty holster (at the time the Safariland Raptor in Level 4) at the pant hem line (side of hip) and move it slightly forward. Somewhere between side of hip to mid way, just before an appendix carry. They were fine during draws without any stress or time constraint and choked when you added stress or time. Moved the holster back to side of hip and the draw smoothed out. 

So this brings a completely different approach now. That said, I am a shooter and have been for a long time. I did learn rather early on that being a "shooter" isn't a major part of policing - especially in Canada. With that said, my concern is a phenomenon that occurs in the LE UOF world....that of silos/empires. All too often I have seen instructors become linear in thinking, especially when it comes to UOF training and the various sub-disciplines of DT/FA/Scenario-officer safety/IRD/TASER/Carbine/Shotgun instruction. The biggest issue is usually between the DT/FA world. I have seen too many instructors in each respective area become so good in their areas that they "forget" about the other areas.....and end up developing/forgetting that the range is a DT room with live fire and the DT room is a range without live fire concepts.  Cross training and validating becomes critical to user techniques, so that they don't have unintended negative consequences when it comes to the other disciplines. 

I am seeing the benefit of the adjustable cant on the duty holster. My opinion is reserved until more study and fleshing out is done in the DT room and during handgun retention drills, and more importantly in the the House of Pain - the sim house (no not just simunitions, but also protective suit training added in - blauer suit).  

just my .02

Boltgun

"  He also mentioned Safariland’s model 295 holster they built for the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department."

Am I imagining things or did they just just mount a right handed holster on a left handed shank to achieve that cant.

4102Burke posted:

"  He also mentioned Safariland’s model 295 holster they built for the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department."

Am I imagining things or did they just just mount a right handed holster on a left handed shank to achieve that cant.

Bear with me, I'm having a second Rob Roy (manhattan but with scotch instead of bourbon) tonight ...

That is, in fact, a right-hand shank on the 290, purpose-built for that set-up at LASD's request.

I had a conversation with a former participant here who is at the LASD version of Firearms & Tactics. We discussed that holster, the 295, and then the follow-on version, the 280S.

lasd-280S-Duty-Holster-280S-93-81lasd3628873711_a4c85ac47b_b

I don't recall ever hearing or seeing anything on this holster; even having numerous interactions with their Safe Streets Bureau (home of both OSS detectives and GET) over the years. I would have killed for a left-hand 1911 version of  this - apparently they existed.

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As I mentioned, my NCRE's arrived thursday. Had the chance to get them on to holsters tonight. I have to shoot an office qual tomorrow afternoon, so the black duty version will get some use then. And, M-W, I'm taking Cowan's RDS instructor class with Blackdog - the FDE rig will get broken in.

IMG_3183IMG_3189IMG_3185IMG_3187 

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...while 2'clock position on drop platform works better for draw (competitions...) how do you guys like it for running/ climbing / mobility stuff? For me it gets in the way of hip flexion and the split second on the draw doesn't seem worth it. 

It might be different for LE than it is for me though 

Had it on the range yesterday to shoot our qual, then worked a bunch of one, two, three-shot draws on a plate rack.

No apparent issue with hip movement. The first few strings on our qual are standing to kneeling. Because of injuries, my compensation is to shoot strong knee up (reversed) as often as possible. No issues doing that.  I'll see about other concerns come mid-week.

Given the frequency of seeing odd stoppages on BWC footage that are difficult, if not downright impossible, to re-create on the range I "think" (yeah, I know) that a bigger benefit to this may well be how it aids in establishing a correct grip/wrist angle from the git go.

Interesting thread.  

I'm quite interested if this wouldn't be a vast improvement for a female duty holster.

Many, if not all make gaining a proper grip and  draw stroke   awkward due to hip and shoulder width.   

 

I only know one guy that carried with a muzzle forward rake and he was a serious shooter.  He liked it because it required  no breaking of the wrist.  When transitioning to Gen 1 Glocks he rushed a  holster to a leather worker to get the belt slot modified.

  If I remember correctly the holster was a Bianchi 19L which being a fairly high ride put the muzzle about where a watch pocket on a pair of jeans.   I always figured it was an influence from IPSC of that era as many used a competition holster with a similar setup.   Anyone  else remember Ernie Hill Speed Leather rigs like that?

With appendix carry being all the fad, I've  wondered  if a muzzle forward high ride holster that roughly paralleled  the inguinal crease  would be an improvement.   It would allow the muzzle to point forward of a man's junk and re-holstering safer.  If the gun was close to the body concealment wouldn't be an issue.   Most of all it would allow wearing a jacket/suit coat putting the gun butt about the same plane as a bladed hand pushes back the garment and without dropping the shoulder back as the FBI cant requires.

 

 

 

Maybe my question is stupid, dumb and doesn’t belong here but I have to ask as I’ve seen some folks running them:

In place of a low ride UBL, is the DFA with a QLS for neutral position a better option?  Yes, I know you cannot negative cant it. 

J_B posted:
In place of a low ride UBL, is the DFA with a QLS for neutral position a better option?  Yes, I know you cannot negative cant it.

I'm not a fan of either the low ride or the DFA/leg-shroud for my roles - so I can't comment one way or another.

The mid-ride with the NCP is working well for me.

I've had my NCP-E on my SLS/ALS RDS holster for a little over a week of uniformed patrol including two dry-fire sessions and a full day of live fire training.  I am a big fan.  I am consistently seeing a .10 second reduction in my draw time over normal.  I am currently running it with the least amount of negative cant and I have the holster positioned directly over my hip pocket.  This is also my first experience with a holster mounted CAT.  It looks a little odd but I really like how easy I can grab the TQ with either hand and it basically takes up zero space on my belt.  

I just ordered two more for my other holsters.  Thanks to everyone who contributed to bringing these to market.

Should anyone be interested in a domestic source for the plates, Centrifuge Training is the US distributor for them now.

I have no financial interest in Centrifuge.

RDR gear has issued a recall for their SDP due to a reported structural failure.  Unfortunate, as I just got four of them in.  One wonders what sort of pressure-testing they did.  I have an NCP, SDP, and CUBL.  I like the fact that the CUBL doesn't offset the holster.  Having a QLS already kicks the holster out about 1/2" compared to a direct mount.

Dear Customer, 

Today Tuesday the 7th at 3:35 PM MST we were notified of a structural failure of our Straight drop plate (SDP). Due to safety concerns, we recommend the immediate removal and discarding of the straight drop plate. Over the last 10 days, 752 plates were sold, and each customer is being notified of this recall.

We followed the recommendations of our manufacturer on our material selection, after reviewing today's failure we have determined to change our material to a 50% glass filled nylon to increase the overall rigidity and strength of the straight drop plate as well as to adhere better to newly selected hardware.

After we have completed a new round of testing, to ensure the straight drop plate meets the highest standards we will immediately begin shipping out replacements.

We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused. We appreciate your patience and understanding while we develop a better product for you.



Chad Wilber

Co-Owner

Hey Casey,
 
Does the CUBL allow you to get to a negative cant? And if so how much?
 
 
Casey posted:

RDR gear has issued a recall for their SDP due to a reported structural failure.  Unfortunate, as I just got four of them in.  One wonders what sort of pressure-testing they did.  I have an NCP, SDP, and CUBL.  I like the fact that the CUBL doesn't offset the holster.  Having a QLS already kicks the holster out about 1/2" compared to a direct mount.

Dear Customer, 

Today Tuesday the 7th at 3:35 PM MST we were notified of a structural failure of our Straight drop plate (SDP). Due to safety concerns, we recommend the immediate removal and discarding of the straight drop plate. Over the last 10 days, 752 plates were sold, and each customer is being notified of this recall.

We followed the recommendations of our manufacturer on our material selection, after reviewing today's failure we have determined to change our material to a 50% glass filled nylon to increase the overall rigidity and strength of the straight drop plate as well as to adhere better to newly selected hardware.

After we have completed a new round of testing, to ensure the straight drop plate meets the highest standards we will immediately begin shipping out replacements.

We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused. We appreciate your patience and understanding while we develop a better product for you.



Chad Wilber

Co-Owner

 

That's unfortunate for anyone who bought one but it sounds like RDR is doing the honorable thing buy recalling them. I don't own a SDP but I have an NCP and CUBL on the way.

I have a bit of background in design/modeling and I was skeptical about the structural integrity when I saw the first photos of the SDP. My guess is the metal inserts/area around them was the failure point. I'd be curious to know what departmental DT testing  was done prior to public release.

@the_theory_police on IG (same guys behind the NCP) have a zero degree cant adapter in the works. It will be made out of 16 gauge stainless. Looks like it will cost <$5 shipped per unit. Another option to add to the growing list.

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Figure I will update a bit here after a few weeks of patrol, dry fire and live fire sessions.  I have been running a DFA w/ a non-RDS holster and QLS for a G45.  I found when used on a DFA/QLS the NCP provided too much negative cant and kicked out the grip of the gun a bit too much for my liking.  I found the grip to be in an unnatural position when working the draw from a POI/hands in front.  

After talking with the guy behind the data (The Theory police), it sounds like the DFA levels out a non-rds holster about 5 degrees, and a maxed-out QLS another 3 degrees. In essence, it brings the holster to a much better position removing most if not all of the positive cant without anything aftermarket.  

This brings up a couple of points I haven't recalled reading before.  

1. The NCP is specifically designed for an RDS holster and according to TTP, a non-rds holster will alter the angles.  Something to be aware of for those of us without an RDS policy.  

2.  The shooters position from the draw... All the testing appears to be from a standard arms relaxed by the side stance.  I wonder if the data would be any different if tested from a POI? At least for me, it felt odd drawing a heavily negatived canted pistol from a POI.  *Could very well be due to the DFA not allowing a proper 2oclock belt position and too much angle)*

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dont_tread_on_me posted:

Casey, how long ago did you get your CUBL? I got juked by Safariland shipping an earpiece but not my CUBL. 

Ordered March 2 direct from Safariland, shipped March 26 via FedEx, arrived March 27 (benefit of being in the same state as Safariland HQ).

dont_tread_on_me posted:

Casey, how long ago did you get your CUBL? I got juked by Safariland shipping an earpiece but not my CUBL. 

The same thing happened to me. I ordered a CUBL and a belt loop insert March 14. The insert arrived April 2. I'm still waiting on the CUBL.

So I just got done trying the NCRE. Good product, very good indeed as it helped me present the weapon as I needed to...that said, and something for those of you right handed guys in particular...The NCRE was/is great when dismounted or if you are perhaps a passenger officer BUT...with it installed I can not draw my weapon while seated in the drivers seat of my squad car (Ford Interceptor Sedan). No way I could get the rearward movement required to draw the weapon-rearward movement of both my arm and the pistol, is blocked by the seat. Now, it most certainly can be due to my body type or other factors such as this vehicles seats but be aware of this before you try to stick on your belt and go to work.

Again, all life saving gear needs to be vetted BEFORE your life depends on it.

Great product for certain applications but at least for me, this is a no go for LE duties.

I am @The_Theory_Police on Instagram, the "Canadian copper" who used to have some time on his hands to do this testing. Looong time (since 2008?)  Lightfighter lurker.

Erick, thank you for your writeup. You captured several elements I did not consider and provided some fantastic history that shows we are, in many ways, just coming full circle on a few things.

I finally finished collecting all my IG posts and data and putting them into a White Paper. Should be available for download today if I can figure out how...

@Community Member posted:
Erick, thank you for your writeup. You captured several elements I did not consider and provided some fantastic history that shows we are, in many ways, just coming full circle on a few things.

Welcome back.

There's a similar thread on pistol-forum; however, the biggest feedback there it adopting this would "get me kilt in da seatz."

Thank you for your work on this. I'm sorry I didn't think about trying to be your US licensee instead of leaving that for Will.

Anyone know how best to drop a Safariland holster only 1-2 inches?  I'm currently wearing mine with a high ride mount and want to drop it slightly, but not as far as the mid ride.  

The QUBL is interesting, but I don't need the adjustability.  

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@Community Member posted:

Anybody have any info on this bit of kit?

https://truenorth-usa.com/prod...lar-holster-adapter/

I just purchased this after seeing it in this post.  I have never been able to get my Safariland holsters mounted at the angle I want.  This seemed like the solution I was looking for.  Ordering and shipping from the company was GTG.  No real instructions on how to put it together though.  Couldn't find any on youtube either.  Looked at the pics on their website and got it together no problem.  Did one dry fire session with and was very happy.  Getting rid of that forward cant made a big difference in my grip out of the holster.  I was finding the dot everytime and draws seemed to take less mental efffort (I have really been concentrating on getting that high grip before pulling gun out of holster).

First live fire session was this afternoon.  Things went well.  Prior to installing the True North Concepts adapter, I was working hard to get draws down below 1 second.  After a Jedi class, I had kinda stalled out in the high teens with consistent accuracy.  I could really push the hand speed and get below 1 second, but the accuracy was not there.  Today, with the adapter the first couple draws were right at 1.03-1.00.  Pushed a little and was getting good hits in the low .9's.

Product definitely allows you to position the holster in the position you want.  It is very adjustable.  The plate feels stout in the hand and all holes lined up perfectly with my Safariland kit.  All included hardware seems to be of high quality as well.  The plate is a little longer than what I need (I run mid-ridish length), but has not caused me any problems yet.  I am able to squat and move without it poking me anywhere.  I will get a better idea of this on my next tactical training day.  

My only concern with the product at this point is all the extra hardware this adds.  They do include a generous tube of some sort of loctite, but little screws do tend to come loose at the most inopportune times.  I will definitely keep an eye on this.  One of the pictures on their site shows the product being used with a leg strap.  Didn't feel a need for one doing flat range stuff, but I threw an old one on just to play with when doing more dynamic stuff.

 

 

Thanks for the review. I was definitely wondering about it after seeing the Soldier Systems post. 

In other news my CUBL arrived and I got it mounted. Seems fine, honestly I can’t tell much difference. I have it set to max aka neutral cant. 

@Community Member posted:

Have any of y'all using the NCRE plate done any weak hand draws yet. Interested to hear if the difficulty increases with the negative cant.

Yes. It's not more difficult, rather it's a change in procedure because of the angle.

You'll need to de-activate the retention, whether SLS or ALS or both, then move the pistol up at a rearward angle. Once the muzzle or light clears the holster, then bring the pistol back forward. 

Reps are required.

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