FBI 9mm Shift

I wish the FBI would produce a well conceived, 10-12 minute video about the switch and why/how they arose at that conclusion. I want to see actual side by side .40 to 9mm gelatin shots and the results first-hand, broken down Barney-Style

 

...... so that it can be dispensed to police administrators everywhere as an attempt to try and quell the stupidity they spout when choosing a duty round. I needs to be short to allow for the demands on their time () and easily comprehended by even the most backwater, unbelieving, stuck in his ways chief or sheriff.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

So what changed in the development of the 9mm to facilitate this? Why is 9mm finally doing so well in testing?

Also, how does the 9mm compare to the .40 and .45 in terms of intermediate barrier penetration? In my mind, no pistol rounds do well with barriers like auto doors or glass so it doesn't matter. Is there more to it than just that?

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Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

I hadn't seen this coming, but it's not surprising, either. I'd long suspected that most handgun calibers were not dissimilar in performance, as they're not... dissimilar (grossly).  

 

Expectedly, the three most important factors regarding bullet effectiveness remain to be placement, placement, and placement.

 

Logically, I'd not be opposed to going from my currently-issued .40S&W back to 9mm (might be a good excuse to get that 9mm M&P Core) but my instincts still make me lean towards a Glock 20 loaded with 1500+fps 135grn JHPs.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

I had an FBI agent whom I recall to be an instructor tell me a couple years ago that he recommended the authorized G21 over the 40 for any agent that had trouble with the 40. They found it is easier to shoot in comparison. I would expect that this is a big factor in performance in shootings, as training is cheaper and easier, and proficiency more likely to be developed and maintained. Since placement/placement/placement is the first issue, that's likely to be a BFD, especially when considers that objective testing (scroll up into Gary's materials) shows no real difference in typical service handgun caliber performance with good loads.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

They switched to a much, much easier qual course about two years ago.

 

I don't know that they've even tested this across an entire academy class yet, since there haven't been any on deck.

 

So will scores go up? Sure. But is anything gained? I'm not wholesale behind this as arguing for identical terminal performance, in terms of penetration depth, ignores the fact that a ,40 SW round carries about 15-25% increased expansion and 15-25% increased bullet weight over a comparable 9mm round. Of course this comes at a relatively equal increase in perceived recoil. 

 

I'm plenty happy with a .40, but I'd carry a 10mm (G20 SF) if I was allowed to. I'd love to see that round stacked against 9mm and .40 if we are using similar bullet construction.

We recently replaced all of our duty pistols with the exact same duty pistol - we replace them every 10 years.  I pushed for switching from the .357 sig to the 9mm - I was told no and they wouldn't even consider it.  Going in saying the FBI had just switched may have gotten them to listen briefly.  Instead, we are paying twice as much for ammo for a round that is no more effective. 

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Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Interesting that 2 fellow 10mm nuts have chimed in.

 

I like the 10mm a great deal, but any proper LE duty load taking advantage of modern bullet design AND the slightly increased available range/velocity envelope of the 10mm is a rare, rare thing. ATK has declared it "dead" in LE for a good long while, despite some ardent cultish fans like myself. Without a major manufacturer putting out at least one good standard LE duty round (ie 180gr GDHP @ 1200fps) it's even less likely to thrive.

 

At the end of the day, the G20/10mm doesn't offer me much  (if anything) worth the increased recoil, size, and cost of the platform/round. We are issued .40s but I'd go back to my G17 tomorrow if the HMFICs would allow it.

 

Just about every time I run off-duty quals or shoot for "fun" (ie pistols other than .40s are on the line), the 9/40, 9/45, 38/357, 9/357 and other debates rear their heads. Thank God that simple, "cop-proof" data is available from Doc and others to ease the minds of my girth/velocity obsessed co-workers.

 

Any bets on which large agency will go back to 9mm next? TX DPS and FBI *should* be enough to get folks' attention, but I always like to see how things progress once a ball gets rolling.

Condition Yellow: For a Longer, Happier Life

With a good part if modern PDs in America playing monkey-see, monkey-do with whatever the FBI does, I'd expect that there'd be a metric fuckton of agencies willing to emulate.

Just a matter of time, money, and a lack of egos.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Ok, let me think this through................speaking in generalities,  a long time ago they had the "FBI shoot-out in Miami".  Several FBI agents were killed as I recall. Somewhere along the line it was determined the FBI needed a better caliber. Soon thereafter, the new 10mm was decreed as the new whiz-bang caliber for the FBI.  Then not too long after that, the gnarly 10mm had to be throttled back, due to agents that had a hard time managing the gun. Hence, the .40, as I remember.  (I do not know if the FBI ever officially went to a .40, but I think they had some type of reduced-load 10mm (?)

   So, as the pendulum swings, the FBI went from whatever caliber they had before the shootout,  up to a 10mm, and now a 9mm?

  I would be curious to know how many agencies nationwide already use the 9mm.  

 

Cripes...its already impossible to get my Federal 9mm order. This is not going to help

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

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Joined: October 2, 2007

Bill, back then the FBI had a mix of .357 and 9mm I believe. One of the two shooters took a 9mm more or less to the heart and didn't quite die fast enough, shooting several agents even when he was supposed to be 'dead'.

 

I know in the 2000s FBI agents in my area were carrying Glock 22's and appeared pretty happy with them.

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Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Maybe, after countless arguments, debates, papers, and screaming matches about what handgun round has the most death-power, people are finally starting to understand that it is a fucking defensive handgun, and, no matter what, it will never be the best fight ender.  I think that the increase in agencies issuing patrol rifles has had an impact on re-examining the handgun role in LE.  I think that more agencies, and Officers, have been shifting their tactics to considering the rifle as the primary, rather than something in the trunk to get out in a rare occurrence.

 

At least, that's what I hope. 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

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Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

SA Urey Patrick of the FBI Firearms Training Unit wrote the following to emphasize this point:

 

“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.  Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder (fired) weapons as possible.”

Originally Posted by yetibob:

       

Sage advice from SA Patrick.


       


Yes. He's a Mainer too, I might add. Been trying to track him down to see if he'll come speak for a couple hours at tactical team training, and put to bed some myths about overpenetration and pistol effectiveness. Too often our guys don't take the rifle, and find an excuse to run just the G22.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

Originally Posted by MrMurphy:

Bill, back then the FBI had a mix of .357 and 9mm I believe...

I do not know if they were still official issue, but three agents in Miami used .38s. Three also had 9s and IIRC 1 non-issue .357. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

With respect, whatever handguns they had on 11 April '86 weren't as relevant as absence the rifles they needed to shoot Platt & Mattix with. But we weren't as smart then as we are now. Those two would've most likely faced a VERY different type of response today.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Originally Posted by Bill, Idaho:

Ok, let me think this through................speaking in generalities,  a long time ago they had the "FBI shoot-out in Miami".  Several FBI agents were killed as I recall. Somewhere along the line it was determined the FBI needed a better caliber. Soon thereafter, the new 10mm was decreed as the new whiz-bang caliber for the FBI.  Then not too long after that, the gnarly 10mm had to be throttled back, due to agents that had a hard time managing the gun. Hence, the .40, as I remember.  (I do not know if the FBI ever officially went to a .40, but I think they had some type of reduced-load 10mm (?)

   So, as the pendulum swings, the FBI went from whatever caliber they had before the shootout,  up to a 10mm, and now a 9mm?

  I would be curious to know how many agencies nationwide already use the 9mm.  

 

The biggest factor from Miami 1986 to today is the advances in bullet design. The changes in how bullets and components are built has made the caliber race equal in terminal ballistics...now it becomes a race to see who can build the best performing terminally round with the lowest recoil so the follow on shots hit their marks....

Being that everyone in the industry lives and dies off the FBI ballistic models, and they provide that info to PD's it should start a slow move out of 40...

Miami was an anomaly, the exception that proved the rule.  The analysis and breakdowns that I've read essentially said that the 9mm Silvertip performed as expected, Platt had a mortal wound when he got out of the vehicle.  Blaming the caliber was a scapegoat rather than racking it up to a problem with the fact that they had poor tactics and planning and were going up against a rifle with handguns.  And the biggie, dedicated opponents.  Platt was a combat veteran from Vietnam (US Army) and Matix was a former Marine and US Army Military Police. 

 

You could as easily place the blame on military veterans.  Or after the N. Hollywood bank robbery/shootout, decide that the police need full auto 7.62x51 rifles with armor piercing ammo at all times.

 

And as was said in the prior post, bullet design has come a long way since 1986.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I would argue that the bullet designs coming from the AAR process are not as important as the recognition that Gary quote from S/A Patrick. If I had to go to something I could predict would lead to me using deadly force, I would hope to never use the pistols I am carrying, because I solved the problem with the AR.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Originally Posted by Dorsai:

Miami was an anomaly, the exception that proved the rule.  The analysis and breakdowns that I've read essentially said that the 9mm Silvertip performed as expected, Platt had a mortal wound when he got out of the vehicle.  Blaming the caliber was a scapegoat rather than racking it up to a problem with the fact that they had poor tactics and planning and were going up against a rifle with handguns.  And the biggie, dedicated opponents.  Platt was a combat veteran from Vietnam (US Army) and Matix was a former Marine and US Army Military Police. 

 

You could as easily place the blame on military veterans.  Or after the N. Hollywood bank robbery/shootout, decide that the police need full auto 7.62x51 rifles with armor piercing ammo at all times.

 

And as was said in the prior post, bullet design has come a long way since 1986.

Exactly, at least in the version the FBI teaches, Platt had a terminal wound as the fight essentially started.

 

When you have on incident of this type every 10 or 20 years, it can be easy to learn the wrong lessons. In my unqualified opinion, this takedown simply wouldn't have happened today, for two primary reasons. One, US government agencies are (rightly) extremely worried about taking violent fights into the public. The second is that the apprehension of these two would have likely been pawned off on local police forces, or pushed up to national (Quantico based) resources. No one wants to be host to the next Miami. The guys who have been around for a while are happy to share stories about how risk averse everyone has become.

To dispel the multiple myths about this incident see

A Forensic Analysis of the April 11 1986 FBI Firefight, W.French Anderson.

It may prove enlightening...

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_17?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=forensic+analysis+of+the+april+11+1986+fbi+firefight&sprefix=forensic+analysis%2Cstripbooks%2C362

So this is the reason M&P 40 trade ins are selling for 350-400.. Now I got to go stock up on my 9mm.. 

Jose "Sir, Custer was a pussy. You ain't. " - CSM Plumley

 

Joined:  9/11/05                            Location: NW FL, AKA Fucking Lower Alabama 

Originally Posted by Buford Boone:

Is is so difficult to believe that projectile design has evolved?

 

"These ain't your Grandpa's bullets".

 

For some people - yes.  Impossible even. They know what they know - your fancy test results be damned. 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

Too bad scientific fact does not always match perceptions...

But I heard it on the internet, so it MUST be correct!

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Were I a betting man, I'd put my money on the pendulum inexorably swinging back towards 9mm, albeit not as fast as it swung from 9mm to .40.

 

I'd also bet that there'll inevitably be those who won't let the facts get in the way of shitte opinions or jumped-to incorrect conclusions.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Originally Posted by parapyropig:

Were I a betting man, I'd put my money on the pendulum inexorably swinging back towards 9mm, albeit not as fast as it swung from 9mm to .40.

 

I'd also bet that there'll inevitably be those who won't let the facts get in the way of shitte opinions or jumped-to incorrect conclusions.

I agree that we will see a swing back to 9mm.

 

Facts are up to the individual to interpret. One good week long jury trial will demonstrate that fact. 

 

But remember that many agencies went from 9mm to 40 because of the AWB. Companies offered to upgrade old 9mm guns for new 40 guns. Usually at a zero cost, one-for-one swap. (That's how my agency got night sights. They came attached to a free gun. We just had to trade all of our old guns with those hi-cap magazines.) All of those old guns came with three Hi-capacity magazines that were worth as much if not more than the gun itself on the open market. 

 

I think you will see some 40 cal agencies take a hard look at their cost for training ammo in 40, then compare the training cost of ammo in 9mm. It will now be easier to sell the idea of switching to 9mm to save the cost difference of training ammo by pushing the idea that "The FBI just switched..."  Just don't push the cost savings. Save that for the final selling point. If you're a civilian shooter or a smaller agency that is buying a couple of cases of training ammo a year, it's not that big of a deal. If your training ammo comes on a semi truck, or on several semi trucks, then all of the sudden you are talking real money with the cost difference. And with every agency facing tighter budgets?

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Originally Posted by HGT75:

I doubt that DHS based law enforcement agencies would switch right away considering the massive amount of .40SW they've contracted to buy over a number of years.

They have contracts to purchase at a fixed price, up to a certain amount.  This does not mean it has actually been purchased yet.  in general, federal appropriations are for current year only, so it makes it hard to buy 5 years worth of ammo.  

______________________________________

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Joined: 1/12/04              Location: Southern Arizona

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