FBI 9mm Shift

The FBI has put out a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial "OFF THE SHELF" semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI.

 

WHY would they do that?  Perhaps it is because they are moving to the 9mm Luger platform.

 

In anticipation of someone whining "What would Buford say about this?", I'd like to make it publicly known that it has my FULL SUPPORT.  Yes, I think it is the right thing to do.

 

Without getting into the weeds, a full power .40 is a great cartridge.  Unfortunately, most shooters and many pistols can't actually handle a full power .40.  Put a problematic pistol in the hands of a problematic shooter and you've got guaranteed catastrophe.

 

The .40 can be downloaded so that it is easier to shoot.  This has been done more than once.  As data showed, the downloaded .40 was no better (in some cases worse) than some 9mm Luger loadings.  Remember, these ain't your Grandaddy's 9s.

 

Don't believe it?  To quote John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

 

There is no good reason to issue a cartridge that, in the same size pistol, gives equal terminal performance but less bullets.

 

Then there is the overwhelming amount of problems of .40 caliber systems.  They've been hashed out here and elsewhere.

 

This switch simply makes sense.


No, I'm not a .40 hater.  I carry one almost every day, loaded with full power ammo.  I'd happily switch to a 9 and drive on.

 

So far as the more powerful cartridges go, my personal opinion is that nobody should even be allowed to carry them unless they are able to consistently max out the qualification course.  I'd far rather go to work with a 98-100% Agent carrying a 9 than an 80% Agent carrying a .40 or .45.  I once (OK, more than once) told people that carried the cool guns: "You know, carrying that but not consistently shooting 98-100 is kind of like driving your Daddy's Corvette but stalling at the traffic light cause you really don't know how to work a clutch".

 

A good shooter can shoot anything.  Unfortunately, the ranks of LE are not necessarily filled with "good" shooters.

Originally Posted by SPDSNYPR:
Originally Posted by tpd223:

I clicked on the link, and didn't have a clue what I was looking at.  Anyone splian, Lucy?

Click on the link and type something along the lines of Federal Bureau of Investigations, it will pull up the solicitation notice for a 9mm gun platform.

Chris

"Jihad works both ways motherfucker. You chose poorly" - Borebrush

Rest in Peace PFC Trevor Brandon Adkins. April 24th, 1991 - July 8, 2012. Maidan Shahr, Wardak province, Afghanistan. 978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police Battalion,


Location: Bragg
Joined 6 Aug 2010

>>>>
>>

 

 

 So, these downloaded .40's...are they specific to the FBI, off the shelf?

 What loads are considered full power?

 180grn at 950+/-? 165 at ?

 

 Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Here is the info as it appears on the site (so everyone can see it):

 

SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOLS

Solicitation Number: SYNOPSIS-OSCU-DSU1501
Agency: Department of Justice Office: Federal Bureau of Investigation Location: Procurement Section
SYNOPSIS-OSCU-DSU1501
<label for="dnf_class_values_procurement_notice__solicitation_number_">Solicitation Number</label>:
SYNOPSIS-OSCU-DSU1501
<label for="dnf_class_values_procurement_notice__procurement_type_">Notice Type</label>:
Presolicitation
 
<label for="dnf_class_values_procurement_notice__description_">Synopsis</label>:
Added: <input name="dnf_class_values[procurement_notice][description][0][added_on]" type="hidden" value="2014-07-25 11:39:28" />Jul 25, 2014 11:39 am
This is a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial "OFF THE SHELF" semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI. This notice is issued solely for informational and planning purposes only.

The following types of pistols, chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge, may be requested for testing and evaluation purposes under a future solicitation:

Class One Pistol: barrel length between 3.75" and 4.25"; with a minimum magazine capacity of 13 rounds.

Class Two Pistol: barrel length between 4.5" and 5.5"; with a minimum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.

Class One Training Pistol (Red Handle): deactivated with full articulation, red receiver and slide, night sights.

Class One "Man Marking" (a.k.a., "Simunitions") pistol: blue slide or slide with blue inserts.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation anticipates the release of a solicitation during FY2015/Q1; distributed solely through the General Services Administration (GSA) Federal Business Opportunities (FBO) Website (www.fedbizopps.gov). This notice does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP) and should not be construed to as a commitment of any kind by the Government to issue a formal solicitation or ultimately award a contract. Responses to this notice are not offers and cannot be accepted by the Government to form a binding contract. Any costs incurred by interested parties will NOT be reimbursed. It is the responsibility of any interested party to monitor this site for additional information pertaining to this notice.

Agency is contemplating single award of a firm fixed price (FFP) Indefinite-Delivery Indefinite-Quantity (IDIQ) contract to the contractor whose submission represents best value to the Government. The anticipated maximum, not to exceed, contract threshold is $100M for a twelve month base period and nine (9) possible additional one-year options. In accordance with FAR 2.101, Multi-Agency Contracts, the solicitation will include a provision authorizing other law enforcement agencies to utilize the contract vehicle. The North American Industry Classification System code is 332994 (Small Arms, Ordnance, and Ordnance Accessories Manufacturing) with a small business size standard of 1,000 employees. Interested parties shall be registered in the System for Award Management at (www.sam.gov).

 

 

<label for="dnf_class_values_procurement_notice__office_address_">Contracting Office Address</label>:
935 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, District of Columbia 20535 United States
<label for="dnf_class_values_procurement_notice__primary_poc_">Primary Point of Contact.</label>:
Jennifer R. Unger,
Contracting Officer
Phone: 540-868-4811
Fax: 540-868-1473
 
 

General Information

Notice Type:
Presolicitation
Posted Date:
July 25, 2014
Response Date:
-
Archiving Policy:
Automatic, on specified date
Archive Date:
December 31, 2014
Original Set Aside:
N/A
Set Aside:
N/A
Classification Code:
10 -- Weapons
NAICS Code:
332 -- Fabricated Metal Product Manufacturing/332994 -- Small Arms, Ordnance, and Ordnance Accessories Manufacturing
 
 
Originally Posted by Buford Boone:

The FBI has put out a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial "OFF THE SHELF" semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI.

 

WHY would they do that?  Perhaps it is because they are moving to the 9mm Luger platform.

 

In anticipation of someone whining "What would Buford say about this?", I'd like to make it publicly known that it has my FULL SUPPORT.  Yes, I think it is the right thing to do.

 

Without getting into the weeds, a full power .40 is a great cartridge.  Unfortunately, most shooters and many pistols can't actually handle a full power .40.  Put a problematic pistol in the hands of a problematic shooter and you've got guaranteed catastrophe.

 

The .40 can be downloaded so that it is easier to shoot.  This has been done more than once.  As data showed, the downloaded .40 was no better (in some cases worse) than some 9mm Luger loadings.  Remember, these ain't your Grandaddy's 9s.

 

Don't believe it?  To quote John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

 

There is no good reason to issue a cartridge that, in the same size pistol, gives equal terminal performance but less bullets.

 

Then there is the overwhelming amount of problems of .40 caliber systems.  They've been hashed out here and elsewhere.

 

This switch simply makes sense.


No, I'm not a .40 hater.  I carry one almost every day, loaded with full power ammo.  I'd happily switch to a 9 and drive on.

 

So far as the more powerful cartridges go, my personal opinion is that nobody should even be allowed to carry them unless they are able to consistently max out the qualification course.  I'd far rather go to work with a 98-100% Agent carrying a 9 than an 80% Agent carrying a .40 or .45.  I once (OK, more than once) told people that carried the cool guns: "You know, carrying that but not consistently shooting 98-100 is kind of like driving your Daddy's Corvette but stalling at the traffic light cause you really don't know how to work a clutch".

 

A good shooter can shoot anything.  Unfortunately, the ranks of LE are not necessarily filled with "good" shooters.

Brother- well said.
The industry is full to the brim with good idea fairies depositing items that at best deliver inconsequential increments to the pile.

BZ Buford!

Originally Posted by Buford Boone:

So far as the more powerful cartridges go, my personal opinion is that nobody should even be allowed to carry them unless they are able to consistently max out the qualification course.  I'd far rather go to work with a 98-100% Agent carrying a 9 than an 80% Agent carrying a .40 or .45.  I once (OK, more than once) told people that carried the cool guns: "You know, carrying that but not consistently shooting 98-100 is kind of like driving your Daddy's Corvette but stalling at the traffic light cause you really don't know how to work a clutch".

 

A good shooter can shoot anything.  Unfortunately, the ranks of LE are not necessarily filled with "good" shooters.

Excellent post overall, but the last part really sums it up well.

 

I do have a question for those who might actually know the answer.

 

The request lists a "Class One" with a barrel length between 3.75" and 4.25" and a "Class Two" with a barrel length between 4.5" and 5.5".

 

I am assuming that the "Class One" pistol would be for general issue to Agents.  But what is the purpose of the "Class Two"? Is this for use by tactical units, HRT, ect.?

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

And is the Bureau also going to really weed out the contenders by putting an accuracy requirement on the guns like they did the SWAT guns that SA won the contract on with the Professional?  Doing that would kick lots of guns to the curb, even some that are very popular.

Originally Posted by DetWD:

And is the Bureau also going to really weed out the contenders by putting an accuracy requirement on the guns like they did the SWAT guns that SA won the contract on with the Professional?  Doing that would kick lots of guns to the curb, even some that are very popular.

Most likely, the way I've always seen it done, is the gov't agency puts out a solicitation notice like the one above for a new requirement, a vendor/manufacturer will then contact the contracting officer about getting on the interested parties list. The contracting officer will put them on the list and eventually send out to all the interested parties a detailed list of what are the minimums and the goals of the solicited weapon, example. Minimum: 5" groups at 25m, Goal: 2.5" groups at 25m. Both being shot from a accuracy fixture. Usually the accuracy requirement for a pistol would be what I used for the example above.

Chris

"Jihad works both ways motherfucker. You chose poorly" - Borebrush

Rest in Peace PFC Trevor Brandon Adkins. April 24th, 1991 - July 8, 2012. Maidan Shahr, Wardak province, Afghanistan. 978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police Battalion,


Location: Bragg
Joined 6 Aug 2010

>>>>
>>

And polymer guns don't like being shot from fixtures - generally.

 

Like most sources sought, turned RFI,turned RFP's Industry will get their input and the final SOW/PD will have the Threshold and Objective desires.

 

My guess by the Class 1 and Class 2 guns is that as Beat Trash mentioned above the general issue gun will be the smaller, and the SWAT and HRT gun will be the larger -- assumable with corresponding differences to the accuracy requirement.

 

 

______________________________

Kevin S. Boland

Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

I talked on the phone this weekend with someone who is familiar with what is going on reference this and was able to explain the "Class One" and "Class Two" concept. Afterward, I had a palm to forehead moment...

 

The "Class One" would be the general issue gun. If we were talking a Glock, then picture a Glock 17/19. If talking S&W, picture a M&P9 fs.

 

The "Class Two" guns are for the tactical units who shoot a lot of rounds through training with a light attached, and want the longer slide so as to not gunk up their lights. Picture a Glock 34 or a M&P9L.

 

After it was explained to me, all I could say was, "Hmm... now it makes sense..."

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Originally Posted by Beat Trash:

I talked on the phone this weekend with someone who is familiar with what is going on reference this and was able to explain the "Class One" and "Class Two" concept. Afterward, I had a palm to forehead moment...

 

The "Class One" would be the general issue gun. If we were talking a Glock, then picture a Glock 17/19. If talking S&W, picture a M&P9 fs.

 

The "Class Two" guns are for the tactical units who shoot a lot of rounds through training with a light attached, and want the longer slide so as to not gunk up their lights. Picture a Glock 34 or a M&P9L.

 

After it was explained to me, all I could say was, "Hmm... now it makes sense..."

Interesting...  what about the street agents who carry a light on their duty weapon 24/7?  Most tactical types I've seen don't have a light on the pistol unless they are on a call out.  Are they going to give them separate pistols in lieu of the 1911?  As sexy as that weapon is, replacing it with a G34 would continue to follow in the current rash of common sense that has broken out in these recent moves. 

I didn't get into that much detail on the topic when I happened to ask what the difference between a Class one and a Class two pistol. Other topics of conversation beyond the FBI switch to 9mm had my attention.

 

I don't work for a Federal agency. But I do work for a municipal agency with a SWAT unit of around 45 officers. They use lights on their guns even when in a uniform capacity. Non-SWAT Officers also have the option to purchase and carry lights. We are an M&P agency and carry the same M&P9 for all tasks.

 

If I were a FBI agent assigned to a tactical unit of some type, I'd love to be issued a Glock 34 or a M&P9L for call outs, and have a issued Glock 19/17 or a M&P9 with a light for a duty weapon to carry 24/7.

 

My opinion about the FBI quest for a new 9mm pistol is that this will definitely be Interesting... 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

One of the things that gives me a giggle about all of this is the drama and bullshit I had to put up with, some of it right here on LF, ref Glock 22s having issues and "Well, the FBI ain't having any problems!", and the whole "9mm sucks!" crap.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Ryan. Not talking about Compact Versus Full Size.  Talking FS and LS. 

I will assume later on it will inspire a compact / low vis smaller gun.


I was hoping to see the longer gun need to take a MRDS.

______________________________

Kevin S. Boland

Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

I would not characterize a 3.75-4.25" barrel as a full size anything. FBI is asking for a compact and a full size or long slide really. I'm sure a subcompact will be involved here somewhere eventually.

We'll know when we see the accuracy spec if they want Glocks or something more expensive.
Originally Posted by tpd223:

, and the whole "9mm sucks!" crap.

 

 Which isn't even remotely close to the whole "40S&W sucks! crap"

 

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Interestingly enough, my bro is now looking at a G35 for various reasons, stating that older agents will get to stay with the .40 if they want.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

I wonder just how many of the older agents will opt to stay with their 40 cal Glocks once they have a chance to do a bit of training with the new 9mm pistols. 

 

I'd be surprised if most don't change to the new gun and caliber. 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

They didn't specify a unit. I say the HK 4.6mm (mp7) will do fine.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Originally Posted by Beat Trash:

I wonder just how many of the older agents will opt to stay with their 40 cal Glocks once they have a chance to do a bit of training with the new 9mm pistols. 

 

I'd be surprised if most don't change to the new gun and caliber. 

The new folks will get the 9mm. As the older agents guns get replaced, I'm told around the 10 year mark, a new 9mm will be issued. At least that's what I was told by an agent I work with.

Ammo- I understand they use the 147 Winchester Ranger Bonded in current 9mm weapons. Think they will stray with that or shift to something else?

“They were two douchebags who met in the normal course of being two douchebags.” - Sully, Third Watch

Originally Posted by Buford Boone:

Something I've heard a lot recently:  "I don't care what I carry, as long as it starts with a 4".

 

If enough people feel that way, perhaps the .41 Short Rimfire will be making a comeback.

 

If you keep saying things like that, someone will find a way to attach a rail and a pistol light to the bottom of an old Remington Derringer...

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Originally Posted by Buford Boone:

Something I've heard a lot recently:  "I don't care what I carry, as long as it starts with a 4".

 

If enough people feel that way, perhaps the .41 Short Rimfire will be making a comeback.

 

How about a 4.25 Liliput?

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

Originally Posted by ggammell:

Ammo- I understand they use the 147 Winchester Ranger Bonded in current 9mm weapons. Think they will stray with that or shift to something else?

^ THIS?  I'm curious about which ammo they will be using as well and why.

Originally Posted by El Cid:
Forgot to add - we know what the issued 9mm duty ammo will be. The same they issue now for agents using 17/19/26's.  The Winchester Ranger 147gr bonded JHP.

I thought I had seen an answer to that question somewhere in here.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

So, not to start anymore purse swinging on the topic, but a few questions relating to Buford's previous posts.

 

1. How man 9mm loads are achieving the same terminal performance as the current .40 loads? I keep hearing that "9mm technology was lagging behind, but now it is catching up".

 

2. How are we defining terminal performance? Obviously penetration depth, but are we seeing 9mm reach the same levels of expansion as .40, while hitting the same penetration depth? Because then I do think we're talking about equals. I have trouble wrapping my head around 9mm being "equal in performance" because we end up talking about a smaller bullet with a smaller grain weight. And yes, I do understand that we're talking about handguns, and maybe spitting distance in comparability, and I'm not trying to ignite the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 debate. 

 

3. Why does capacity between 9mm and .40 keep coming up as a measure of concern? The FBI still issues single stack 1911s to SWAT personnel who want them. Is one or two rounds that big of a difference? If so, why doesn't FTU allow (+) capacity baseplates on the pistols? I feel like you guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one.

 

4. Yes, people shoot 9mm better than 40. Yes, scores should go up. But when most people use quals as training, when the only emphasis is "passing", I'm not sure we're moving in the right direction. The transition to 9mm, much like the current qualification course, will only further erode the shooting abilities of the organization. I see it is a training problem, not as an equipment problem. Practically, agents can miss every round at 25 yards and still "pass". That going to a softer shooting round slightly improves the rate of missing isn't addressing the root of the problem.

 

I'm ambivalent about the transition. But here is the rationale I would provide:

 

1. Lowered cost per round. (More rounds for training).

2. Faster follow up shots.

3. Increased longevity of firearms.

4. Commonality with military/NATO pistol caliber.

5. Increased ease of qualifying new shooters.

 

But we should be tightening up the qualification standards simultaneously. Passing should become hitting the target 52, or 54 times out of 60 shots, instead of 48 as it stands currently. 

Originally Posted by Middlelength:

 

But we should be tightening up the qualification standards simultaneously. Passing should become hitting the target 52, or 54 times out of 60 shots, instead of 48 as it stands currently. 

 

How about having to hit the target with all shots on a standard qual? And having to get 90% in the 8" A zone or COC to pass? That would make alot of difference.

 

From what I am seeing any miss off the target should result in a immediate reduction in pay.

Originally Posted by Longeye:
Originally Posted by Middlelength:

 

But we should be tightening up the qualification standards simultaneously. Passing should become hitting the target 52, or 54 times out of 60 shots, instead of 48 as it stands currently. 

 

How about having to hit the target with all shots on a standard qual? And having to get 90% in the 8" A zone or COC to pass? That would make alot of difference.

 

From what I am seeing any miss off the target should result in a immediate reduction in pay.

 

 One of our current instructors believes a miss of the silhouette should be an immediate failure.

 Even though I dislike the guy, and have done just that on occasion, I can't disagree.

 

 

 Bob 

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

       

Like having to stagger bolt rings.


       

...thought I was only the one who got wound around the axle every time someone exalted it's necessity.

At my department, we issue .40s, but still stock and issue 9mm ammo... 127grn +P+ For duty. My right wrist arthritis is starting to get worse, so… guess I'm going to transition back to 9mm, and feel pretty good about it, too. Dammit.
Originally Posted by R.Moran:
Originally Posted by Longeye:
Originally Posted by Middlelength:

 

But we should be tightening up the qualification standards simultaneously. Passing should become hitting the target 52, or 54 times out of 60 shots, instead of 48 as it stands currently. 

 

How about having to hit the target with all shots on a standard qual? And having to get 90% in the 8" A zone or COC to pass? That would make alot of difference.

 

From what I am seeing any miss off the target should result in a immediate reduction in pay.

 

 One of our current instructors believes a miss of the silhouette should be an immediate failure.

 Even though I dislike the guy, and have done just that on occasion, I can't disagree.

 

 

 Bob 

Our qual has a minimum score and each serial has a time to pass. Any shots outside of the silhouette is a fail as well.

That would be a huge improvement.

 

I'd also like to see strings of 5-6 rounds fired in a very short time period at the closer ranges (3 yards, etc). So, two strings of six rounds versus four strings of three rounds. I think currently the max number of rounds fired at 3 and 5 yards is 3 rounds. More mag changes on the clock, etc. It is pretty embarrassing to have to explain that we measure accuracy not in terms of hit to center mass, but rather hits to a human figure. If I put 48 rounds in the target's shoulder, and leave 12 in my pocket, I would still qualify. 

 

And yes, my phrasing was bad on the grain weight. Specifically, my questions was in relation to 180 vice 147 (which I assume is the weight of the round we are looking at).

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