FBI 9mm Shift

We all know a qual course is not training.  It's a measurement of skill (a completely separate, lengthy thread could be started on how well, and what is measured).

 

I can say for sure the office in my AO does actual training after the qual courses of fire are completed.  Do most other office/PD's not do that?  Down here it could be shooting from/around vehicles, Sims in the shoot house, shotgun/MP5/M-4 fam courses.  Even one v. one plate rack competitions.  The response by personnel to the training is not universally warm as we would expect.  Some are very vocal about how much they hate being at the range for even a few minutes.  Some of course take it seriously because they "get it."  And some squads schedule their own training days with instructors. 

 

I do think the COF is too forgiving, but no matter how demanding there should be training that is separate. 

 

Since this thread is about ammunition... I do think the switch to 9mm will make things more pleasant for the agents who don't like to shoot.  I also think it will boost the confidence of many and that's a win for a variety of reasons.  Even if the 9mm was slightly less effective, I'd rather be on the street with someone who can get hits with a 9mm, than someone who will miss with a 40. 

 

Let's face it - being a LEO is not about being a gunfighter (save a few specific units).  Those who would be gunfighters will get more range/trigger time. 

When my department first went semi auto the 9mm was all that was allowed. 

Over time due to a lot of complaining we started allowing .357 SIG in privately owned pistols. 

A lot of people bought the .357, some people did pretty good with it, a lot of people did much worse. 

Usually the people who knew the least about guns, ammo or ballistics were the most vocal about it was a "Mans Gun"  and that the "9mm was for girls".  

We also have had a lot of ammo issues with the .357.

Now over time most of the good shooters have went back to their 9mms and are glad of it.

I have no problem allowing for bigger than 9mm calibers for select shooters who have proven competence, but for general across the board issue, 9mm makes more sense to me for many reasons.

Reasons being easier to shoot, cheaper to shoot, more ammo capacity, longer lasting pistols.      

Originally Posted by El Cid:

Let's face it - being a LEO is not about being a gunfighter (save a few specific units).  Those who would be gunfighters will get more range/trigger time. 

In general, that may be correct, but there are a couple thoughts to pitch out.

 

One, the ability to transition from doing one thing to fighting is vital, and I include in that the perception of the need to fight.

The other is: it only matters when it really matters. MOST LEOs could do MOST of their job in shorts, sandals, and a T-shirt. But when circumstances make other options necessary, there is no appointment, not much notice, and no option.

 

It would not surprise me if most FBI agents involved in shootings are because they are the victim of a crime unrelated to their duties, except for a small group of hunters. That does not make the skill set optional.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Originally Posted by Doug Mitchell:
Originally Posted by El Cid:

Let's face it - being a LEO is not about being a gunfighter (save a few specific units).  Those who would be gunfighters will get more range/trigger time. 

In general, that may be correct, but there are a couple thoughts to pitch out.

 

One, the ability to transition from doing one thing to fighting is vital, and I include in that the perception of the need to fight.

The other is: it only matters when it really matters. MOST LEOs could do MOST of their job in shorts, sandals, and a T-shirt. But when circumstances make other options necessary, there is no appointment, not much notice, and no option.

 

It would not surprise me if most FBI agents involved in shootings are because they are the victim of a crime unrelated to their duties, except for a small group of hunters. That does not make the skill set optional.

I completely agree, and am in no way suggesting it's an optional skill set.  Just that an organization is not going to spend an inordinate amount of time and money on something that is essentially a collateral duty, for an event that is most likely not going to happen.  Administrators have to balance all tasks, and sadly, the one that is most important when it's needed, is the one that is least likely to be needed.  And most administrators are not gun enthusiasts. 

 

That's why so many of my friends/coworkers and I pay out of pocket to train with the folks from Grey Group/Alias/etc.  That's why we shoot competitively.  But most folks aren't going to do that, so finding a balance between what they need and what is cost effective is tough - especially for an agency of 13,000+ armed personnel. 

 

I spent the last two days in a Warrior Mindset class taught by 3 veteran MDPD officers.  It was a fantastic class and goes beyond the scope of this thread, but your statement about having to go quickly from a routine task to deadly force made me think of something the instructors said.  To paraphrase: Local officers are training poor and experience rich, while feds are typically training rich and experience poor.  That's of course a generalization, but it's true.  Even the violent crime agents don't get the same amount of street time a locals.  Most agents aren't used to fighting, don't carry tasers/batons/OC, and are not so practiced at recognizing the predatory pre-conflict signals.  All this makes the gun proficiency more important.  If they can more easily master a 9mm without any changes to training, I don't see a downside. 

 

On another site, someone suggested that the feds just needed to have more/better training to make 40S&W work.  I would love to see more/better training, but not to waste time mastering a 40 when 9 will do the same job.  I would prefer that extra training be involving things like judgment, situational awareness, tactics, vehicles, Sims, shooting under stress, etc. 

Originally Posted by El Cid:
To paraphrase: Local officers are training poor and experience rich, while feds are typically training rich and experience poor.  That's of course a generalization, but it's true.  Even the violent crime agents don't get the same amount of street time a locals.  Most agents aren't used to fighting, don't carry tasers/batons/OC, and are not so practiced at recognizing the predatory pre-conflict signals.  All this makes the gun proficiency more important.  If they can more easily master a 9mm without any changes to training, I don't see a downside. 

 

On another site, someone suggested that the feds just needed to have more/better training to make 40S&W work.  I would love to see more/better training, but not to waste time mastering a 40 when 9 will do the same job.  I would prefer that extra training be involving things like judgment, situational awareness, tactics, vehicles, Sims, shooting under stress, etc. 

I concur that in terms of return on investment for training time, the 9mm makes more sense for the reasons you describe (and maybe more). As one gets older, it makes even more sense. My experiences, although not as in depth as Pat's, are similar to his article in SWAT on "Giving up the Man Gun" a couple years ago.

 

The training/experience issue is certainly there, too. One of my friends took part in a detail involving a joint operation with some feds, at least some of whom were FBI. The agent had never been a cop, never really worked nights, never been in a squad car. He had no idea what she was pointing out to him, was constantly surprised at how she drove and turned on things she saw, and was thrown around the car. His interactions with vehicles they stopped were ... poor, simply due to the ignorance of the circumstances such as you describe. It was as foreign to him as physics would be to me.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Somewhat off topic.

Feds ain't cops (generally- there are some titled as Federal Police)
They are criminal investigators.
This take nothing from them- but apples and grapefruits.
Cops stand on cold dark corners, deliver babies, handle domestic insurrections (family disputes, don't get excited) issue parkers and movers, arrest mutts, fights with drunks, EDP's and bosses.
The make collars based on observation and usually without warrants, and get paid a paltry sum for the grief they have to put up with.
And of course. every swinging dick (udders?) know more about what they do then those who actually do it.
Among those things that upset me most about this left wing, socialist  bed wetting administration is when they call the attorney general the "Top Cop".

he (she, it) would not make a pimple on a real cop's ball bag.

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

Somewhat off topic.

Feds ain't cops (generally- there are some titled as Federal Police)
They are criminal investigators.
This take nothing from them- but apples and grapefruits.
Cops stand on cold dark corners, deliver babies, handle domestic insurrections (family disputes, don't get excited) issue parkers and movers, arrest mutts, fights with drunks, EDP's and bosses.
The make collars based on observation and usually without warrants, and get paid a paltry sum for the grief they have to put up with.
And of course. every swinging dick (udders?) know more about what they do then those who actually do it.
Among those things that upset me most about this left wing, socialist  bed wetting administration is when they call the attorney general the "Top Cop".

he (she, it) would not make a pimple on a real cop's ball bag.

Well said sir. 

 
Originally Posted by LobsterClaw207:
Interesting post on SSD:
http://soldiersystems.net/2014...i-training-division/

I'd copy and paste it but I'm on cell phone. Also I was unable to locate the actual source for that info on the FBI site or anywhere.

That write-up is legit, I have confirmed through my sources that the FBI did in fact write that up for internal distro

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Originally Posted by Joe007:

so did they finalize what 9mm round will be used? 

I was wondering the same thing...  Not that I put too much stock into what the FBI says about... Well, anything, really.  I'm more curious than anything.

Originally Posted by Joe007:

so did they finalize what 9mm round will be used? 

They started issuing the Speer Gold Dot G2, 147gr in or around October, 2014.  However, they issued a recall a week or two ago because the production ammo was not performing properly.  They are back to the Winchester 147 Bonded Ranger until the G2 gets its issues resolved. 

Originally Posted by Beat Trash:

Maybe I missed it, but what gun are they using the 9mm rounds in? Did they stay with Glock?

They are currently using Glocks.  It's my understanding the new handgun contract is still an ongoing and no selection has been made. 

From what I've heard.

 

No new 9mm hitting the the field. Still seeing Speer loads. New Agents are still leaving the academy with Glock 22s. I'd expected to see classes getting issued 17s, but that hasn't happened. Some HRT teams have gone to 17s.

 

No new program gun selected, tactical or otherwise. Probably will be quite a while on this one given the resultant competing requirements from all the stakeholders. 

 

Everyone that heads a program that has a dog in the fight is supporting a transition to 9mm. Thats not to say this is supported across the board, as there is still a hell of a lot of funny math going on, but the programs themselves are presenting a united front, at least in their last presentation to the Firearms Instructors.

 

All .45s are now disallowed for personal purchase. This news was contained in the same announcement which stated a move to a new, superior, bonded .45 round. No real explanation, no justification, other than a new program gun may be a few years on the horizon. A .45 is still THE program gun for the tactical programs, you just can't buy them. Confused yet? 

 

Then, and this next part is all second hand, program heads went to the deputy head of the organization to push for an all out shift to 9mm. At a price tag of several million dollars. Supposedly they were laughed out of the office because there are shelves of .40SW in every field office, perfectly performing weapons in every holster, and no magical pot of money to support buying and training everyone on a new pistol.

 

So, again, totally second hand, the whole shift is currently dead in the water.

 

Now, 17s and 19s are still authorized for personal purchase (like they should have been for the past 10+ years - but my stance on this will always be that the Firearms Unit is run by morons who can't shoot), the qualification course still remains almost impossible to fail, and 1911 is still the tactical program gun, but .45s have been deauthorized for personal purchase.

 

Anyway, I hope that the above is true at least from a fiscal standpoint, because the better deal for the taxpayer is for the 9mm to be phased in - new Agents, then as the guns wear down, or letting guys choose to buy their own. Retiring 13,000 G22s in an Agency that doesn't resell guns to the public would be a complete exercise in taxpayer abuse. Oh, and the average gun shoots maybe 1000 rounds a year, so we're not talking about guns that are getting ridden hard.

 

Everyone involved keeps saying the wholesale shift is years away, and that is probably right, and isn't doesn't have anything to do with the effectiveness of rounds, but rather how quickly you can change a large bureaucracy.

I was in a class with an agent whose G22 acted just like the stereotype. Not even arguably reliable. (I saw this. It was fucking scary.) Admittedly, I encountered another agent some years before who claimed his G22 worked great and that the 1911s were malfunction prone, a claim I have not heard at all before or since.

 

And banning .45s for personal purchase is just fucking stupid, unless that is limited to the 1911s. That agent told us he recommended the G21 for most agents because it was more pleasant to shoot.I have relatively small hands, yet I had no trouble with it, and it was pleasant to shoot, and my issued G21 dead nuts reliable when I tested it. 700 + rounds without cleaning, about 500 rounds of it being duty ammo.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Good friend of mine is a fed.  Also a firearms instructor for them.  From what I've heard from him over meals, not a lot of what they do and how they do it makes sense.  They are obviously pushing the 9mm thing in the future, but they have hundreds of G22s to issue their new agents, and untold amounts of ammo.  That won't change soon.  

 

Their personally owned weapon policy is thick with red tape, and their list of approved firearms seems to change a lot.  Their 1911 program seems to be dying.  

 

There is a lot that (me from a small agency) doesn't make a lot of sense.  

 

I'd say if they do go to the 9mm wholesale, it will be something that takes many years.  They are not like most agencies where they can call everyone in over a few weeks or months and get them set up.  They are spread out all over the damned place.  They are not like the military where every duty station has armorers. Their shit breaks, and they send it to Quantico.  Same goes with approval of new weapons - it all goes through headquarters (from my understanding).  So - getting everyone outfitted, checked out, and the minor problems that invariably crop up will be a nightmare for them.  It's their own doing, but it seems like they are their own worst enemy in a way.  

 

I wouldn't look to see a lot of G17s in holsters anytime soon.  

 

I also have seen his G22 choke, even with their "function assured" ammo.  But then, my G31 doesn't have the world's greatest function record (both gen 4).  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Posted the link elsewhere but upon further reflection, this is the repository for this info:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com...d1d3eb896_story.html

 


 

 

FBI returns to 9mm rounds, once shunned as ineffective

 

ByThomas Gibbons-Neff and Adam Goldman

 

October 31 at 4:24 PM


The Federal Bureau of Investigation is returning to the ammunition caliber it labeled ineffective and blamed for the deaths of two of its agents during a 1986 shootout in Miami — the 9mm jacketed hollow-point luger.

 

In addition to the new bullet, the FBI has decided to purchase a new pistol to fire it, something that could be in the hands of the FBI’s approximately 13,000 agents by 2016, according to bureau officials. The decision could also have far-ranging implications for local law enforcement agencies because they often model their procurement decisions on those made by the FBI.

 

 

The bureau dumped the 9mm bullet after the Miami incident because it failed to penetrate far enough into the gunman’s torso.

 

 

The shooter, former Army Ranger Michael Platt, then went on to kill two agents and wound a third. Though Platt was shot multiple times, an autopsy revealed that he died from the wound suffered from that first shot — one that penetrated his chest cavity but stopped just short of his heart.

 

 

In response, the FBI fielded a new pistol round, one they hoped would have better penetration: the 10mm. In the following years, the 10mm was ditched in favor of the .40 S&W, a stubbier round that could fit into pistols designed for small calibers.

 

 

Currently, the .40 S&W is a law enforcement favorite, but after recent studies on new 9mm rounds by the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility, the 9mm is slowly finding its way back into the hands of police officers across the country.

 

 

According to FBI Special Agent Ray Cook, the current unit chief of the FBI’s Defensive Systems Unit, the bureau, which continuously tests various types of ammunition, began considering a return to the 9mm round in 2007 in part because of advances in ballistic technology.

 

 

“During our testing, we found that the [9mm] rounds used in the Miami shootout tested the lowest on our scale,” Cook said in a recent interview at the FBI Academy, referring to the bureau’s ballistic standards and testing methods put in place following the shooting.

The new 9mm round — known to gun aficionados as the 147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2 — is significantly more effective than what FBI agents carried into the field in 1986. According to Cook, the bullet has been rigorously tested and has received high marks in the FBI’s most important category for bullet selection: penetration.

 

 

Cook says that the lighter the bullet, the faster the gun can “drive” the round into the target. For the FBI, that translates into 12 to 18 inches of penetration into the human body. The 9mm’s weight, Cook added, also increases an agent’s accuracy in a gunfight, according to the findings of a 2014 FBI report that was leaked online last year.

According to Cook, the bureau’s ability to research and test weapons in ways that other law enforcement agencies cannot gives it great sway over many police departments.

“When we do something, local departments take note,” Cook said. “They see that if it works for us, it’ll work for them, too.”

 

 

For Jorge Rodriguez, a police officer in the Houston suburb of Baytown, Tex., his department is testing the idea of going back to the 9mm for many of the same reasons the FBI is leaving the .40 S&W.

 

 

“The 9mm has changed,” Rodriguez said. “The FBI report came out and basically affirmed that the 9mm isn’t a weak round anymore.”

The Los Angeles Police Department recently transitioned from a Glock .40 to a Smith & Wesson chambered in 9mm, while the New York Police Department issues a hollow-point 9mm round to its duty officers.

 

 

In early October, the FBI issued a request for proposal for a new pistol, a contract worth up to $85 million. Cook would neither speculate nor comment on what firearm manufacturer the FBI might select.

 

 

In 1996, the FBI adopted a Glock pistol chambered in .40 S&W and has since fielded a number of variants. The FBI’s elite Hostage Rescue Team (HRT), however, uses others weapons.

 

 

“We are on a completely different program,” one senior HRT operator said, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the team’s arsenal.

It includes using Heckler & Koch 416 carbines — a favorite of top-tier Special Operations forces around the globe — as well as an array of different pistols. The HRT’s armorers, however, are among the 11 technicians who maintain the rest of the bureau’s weapons in a building basement adjacent to the FBI Academy’s Jefferson Dormitory — known as the Gun Vault.

 

 

The vault is half safe and half armory, a place where the bureau stores approximately 7,000 firearms and also a place where the bureau’s 60,000 firearms — from pistols to sniper rifles — are maintained and repaired, according to Kenneth A. Fennema, the FBI’s lead gunsmith.

 

 

“These are imperfect machines though,” Fennema said. “They break.”

The armorers who work on the bureau’s weapons are a mixed bag of prior military and old hands who have been with bureau’s weapon program for decades. For Al Neff, 61, an armorer who has been with the bureau for more than 40years, he sees the FBI’s change to a new but older caliber bullet and the adoption of a new service pistol as a mandatory evolution to stay up with current technology.

 

 

“We want to see what’s out there,” he said. “We want to make sure that gun goes bang every time.”

 


 

 

 

Thomas Gibbons-Neff is a staff writer and a former Marine infantryman.


Adam Goldman reports on terrorism and national security for The Washington Post. 

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

Reliability of the duty weapon wasn't mentioned in the article at all, oddly enough, until the very last.  And then was mentioned passingly.  Nothing about "we can't get the goddamned pistols to run to literally save our fucking lives."  It doesn't really compare the .40 to the 9mm directly, only the new ammo to the old ammo - and then really says nothing of substance.

 

guess it's made for the general reader, not anyone who knows anything about guns.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Range Report:  Speer 9mm 147 Grain Gold Dot G2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I chronographed the Speer 147 grain Gold Dot G2 ammunition from a Gen 2 Glock 19 (with a factory original barrel) over an Oehler 35-P chronograph.  The load had a muzzle velocity of 960 FPS with a standard deviation of 8 FPS.

 

 

I evaluated the accuracy of the 147 grain G2 load from a distance of 25 yards.  A 10-shot group fired from my Noveske barreled Colt 6450 had an extreme spread of 0.82”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A 10-shot group fired off the bench from my Heckler & Koch VP9 hand an extreme spread of 2.48”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For a comparison to Federal’s 147 grain HST ammunition see the following thread:

 

https://www.lightfighter.net/to...-luger-147-grain-hst

 

 

 

It would be interesting to know how long ago they were interviewed. Two weeks ago, word was this is once again dead in the water, 2017 or 2018 at the earliest kind of dead in the water.

 

Also, most of the HRT guys were running 22s, contrary to the article. Most are now running 17s. You also saw some dabbling with the MP7 for a while...

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

Somewhat off topic.

Feds ain't cops (generally- there are some titled as Federal Police)
They are criminal investigators.
This take nothing from them- but apples and grapefruits.
Cops stand on cold dark corners, deliver babies, handle domestic insurrections (family disputes, don't get excited) issue parkers and movers, arrest mutts, fights with drunks, EDP's and bosses.
The make collars based on observation and usually without warrants, and get paid a paltry sum for the grief they have to put up with.
And of course. every swinging dick (udders?) know more about what they do then those who actually do it.
Among those things that upset me most about this left wing, socialist  bed wetting administration is when they call the attorney general the "Top Cop".

he (she, it) would not make a pimple on a real cop's ball bag.

Damn Pat! Ye stole me THUNDER! Could not have been said better.

Jack Perritt

So it's three years later and we now know that the FBI selected the Glock 19M

I agree with some of the comments above about desirability of having available a police duty gun with a single column magazine in 9mm. Something about the size of the S&W 39 series or the Kahr T9.

I taught firearms at the local regional police academy for a total of 13 years and helped train 1,100+ students. (some of whom are hitting the 30 year mark now and retiring . . . ) Every class we had at least one or two students (usually female but not always) who had small hands, and we had to find a gun that would work for them.

For people with smaller hands, the grip circumference and the reach from the backstrap to the face of the trigger are critical dimensions.

When I started teaching in the Academy (1988) the transitions was just beginning around here from revolvers (mostly K frame Smith & Wessons) to auto pistols. We still had some revolver shooters until about 1990 and then we didn't. With a K frame S&W the fix was simple -- we'd set them off to the gun shop for a set of the Pachmayr grips with the exposed backstrap (the "Professional" model IIRC) and that usually solved the problem.

For auto pistol shooters we would recommend a S&W 3906 or a Sig 225. Some people had agencies that issued sidearms and were not allowed variation and that was a problem we never really figured out a solution for. If you have little hands, a Beretta 92F isn't going to work very well for you (which is one of the reasons a lot of GIs don't like those guns)

Many people thought the solution was a grip exerciser. Well, a strong grip benefits everybody. BUT if your hand is too small and your fingers are too short for that particular platform, having a strong grip doesn't help that much.

Sometimes we'd actually write a letter to the individual's agency and suggest a thinner gun. NOT a "smaller" gun, but a "thinner" gun. I remember we did that for one girl whose agency issued Ruger P-85s. They were all proud of themselves because they bought her a S&W 6904.  Which STILL had a grip circumference a little too big for her hand . . .

 

 

 

 

**********************

arm yourself, because no one else here will save you . . .

 

he found faith in danger, a lifestyle he lived by

 

Assemble the Kingsmen

M&P Shield EZ in 9mm....if they made one.

-------------------------

Mark

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I’ve grumped about issue weapons for years. If agencies issued uniforms like they issue pistols everyone would wear size 36x32 pants, size 41 shirts and size 12 boots.   I am surprised I’ve never heard of a small stature employee file a discrimination suit over it. 

I actually think I have. Back when the Beretta 92 walked the earth, some of the small handed got together at some big agency and complained that their scores were awful... but only with the issue pistol. Some were (or styled themselves as) gunfighters, and had previously qualified handily with the revolvers, so: fix it or lawsuit.

IF I recall right, it was one of the big agencies that suddenly also issued a couple flavors of S&W, all the way down to single stack, as this was the solution to fit. FIs were supposed to be on the lookout for this as an issue, see if the officers/recruits solved their range issues with a smaller gun, and did the proper paperwork. 

But yeah, weird it was so rare and I keep waiting for it to come back up again. Especially in a world where everyone has spreadsheets, and we now have changeable backstraps, or gripframes, it seems like being data-centric and fixing issues would be in vogue. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I worked for an agency that issued the 15 shot Sig 226 in 9mm.  We had two or three females with smaller hands who were issued the 8 shot Sig 225. 

Smith & Wesson had lots of different guns to choose from and Betetta made the 8 shot 92M. I knew a couple of people that had them back in the day. 

**********************

arm yourself, because no one else here will save you . . .

 

he found faith in danger, a lifestyle he lived by

 

Assemble the Kingsmen

Jeff22 posted:

 

For auto pistol shooters we would recommend a S&W 3906 or a Sig 225. Some people had agencies that issued sidearms and were not allowed variation and that was a problem we never really figured out a solution for. If you have little hands, a Beretta 92F isn't going to work very well for you (which is one of the reasons a lot of GIs don't like those guns) 

I take it from your post that you had pretty good success with this strategy. Was the switch to the P225 enough, or did you have something else you did for small handed shooters?

I replaced the factory P225 grips with the Hogue G10 (the thinnest I could find) and still can't get a proper trigger press in double action. I've pretty much written the pistol off at this point, since a PPQ with small backstrap fits my hand, and boasts a double stack mag; but I'd really enjoy not having to bench it strictly because my short fingers result in me throwing my first round more often than not.

With two officers, the thinner gun worked reasonably well. 

With another officer, she had small hands, short fingers, limited grip strength, and was also cross dominant (right handed, left master eye). 

I'm cross dominant. About 25% of people are. Usually that can be fixed by changing the shooter's head position to line the sights up with the master eye. 

In Carol's case we never did figure out what her problem(s) were (other than she was not suited by temperament or personality to be the police -- that was obvious to everybody in the world but her). She was with us for 15 years and she never did figure the gun thing out.

We train quarterly, and every time we went to the range it was like she had never seen a gun before. 

**********************

arm yourself, because no one else here will save you . . .

 

he found faith in danger, a lifestyle he lived by

 

Assemble the Kingsmen

When I was in the MPs the males were issued M1911A1s and the females were issued Smith & Wesson Model 10s with small grips. 

**********************

arm yourself, because no one else here will save you . . .

 

he found faith in danger, a lifestyle he lived by

 

Assemble the Kingsmen

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