I wish the FBI would produce a well conceived, 10-12 minute video about the switch and why/how they arose at that conclusion. I want to see actual side by side .40 to 9mm gelatin shots and the results first-hand, broken down Barney-Style

 

...... so that it can be dispensed to police administrators everywhere as an attempt to try and quell the stupidity they spout when choosing a duty round. I needs to be short to allow for the demands on their time () and easily comprehended by even the most backwater, unbelieving, stuck in his ways chief or sheriff.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

So what changed in the development of the 9mm to facilitate this? Why is 9mm finally doing so well in testing?

Also, how does the 9mm compare to the .40 and .45 in terms of intermediate barrier penetration? In my mind, no pistol rounds do well with barriers like auto doors or glass so it doesn't matter. Is there more to it than just that?

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

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Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

I hadn't seen this coming, but it's not surprising, either. I'd long suspected that most handgun calibers were not dissimilar in performance, as they're not... dissimilar (grossly).  

 

Expectedly, the three most important factors regarding bullet effectiveness remain to be placement, placement, and placement.

 

Logically, I'd not be opposed to going from my currently-issued .40S&W back to 9mm (might be a good excuse to get that 9mm M&P Core) but my instincts still make me lean towards a Glock 20 loaded with 1500+fps 135grn JHPs.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

I had an FBI agent whom I recall to be an instructor tell me a couple years ago that he recommended the authorized G21 over the 40 for any agent that had trouble with the 40. They found it is easier to shoot in comparison. I would expect that this is a big factor in performance in shootings, as training is cheaper and easier, and proficiency more likely to be developed and maintained. Since placement/placement/placement is the first issue, that's likely to be a BFD, especially when considers that objective testing (scroll up into Gary's materials) shows no real difference in typical service handgun caliber performance with good loads.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

They switched to a much, much easier qual course about two years ago.

 

I don't know that they've even tested this across an entire academy class yet, since there haven't been any on deck.

 

So will scores go up? Sure. But is anything gained? I'm not wholesale behind this as arguing for identical terminal performance, in terms of penetration depth, ignores the fact that a ,40 SW round carries about 15-25% increased expansion and 15-25% increased bullet weight over a comparable 9mm round. Of course this comes at a relatively equal increase in perceived recoil. 

 

I'm plenty happy with a .40, but I'd carry a 10mm (G20 SF) if I was allowed to. I'd love to see that round stacked against 9mm and .40 if we are using similar bullet construction.

We recently replaced all of our duty pistols with the exact same duty pistol - we replace them every 10 years.  I pushed for switching from the .357 sig to the 9mm - I was told no and they wouldn't even consider it.  Going in saying the FBI had just switched may have gotten them to listen briefly.  Instead, we are paying twice as much for ammo for a round that is no more effective. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Interesting that 2 fellow 10mm nuts have chimed in.

 

I like the 10mm a great deal, but any proper LE duty load taking advantage of modern bullet design AND the slightly increased available range/velocity envelope of the 10mm is a rare, rare thing. ATK has declared it "dead" in LE for a good long while, despite some ardent cultish fans like myself. Without a major manufacturer putting out at least one good standard LE duty round (ie 180gr GDHP @ 1200fps) it's even less likely to thrive.

 

At the end of the day, the G20/10mm doesn't offer me much  (if anything) worth the increased recoil, size, and cost of the platform/round. We are issued .40s but I'd go back to my G17 tomorrow if the HMFICs would allow it.

 

Just about every time I run off-duty quals or shoot for "fun" (ie pistols other than .40s are on the line), the 9/40, 9/45, 38/357, 9/357 and other debates rear their heads. Thank God that simple, "cop-proof" data is available from Doc and others to ease the minds of my girth/velocity obsessed co-workers.

 

Any bets on which large agency will go back to 9mm next? TX DPS and FBI *should* be enough to get folks' attention, but I always like to see how things progress once a ball gets rolling.

Condition Yellow: For a Longer, Happier Life

With a good part if modern PDs in America playing monkey-see, monkey-do with whatever the FBI does, I'd expect that there'd be a metric fuckton of agencies willing to emulate.

Just a matter of time, money, and a lack of egos.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Ok, let me think this through................speaking in generalities,  a long time ago they had the "FBI shoot-out in Miami".  Several FBI agents were killed as I recall. Somewhere along the line it was determined the FBI needed a better caliber. Soon thereafter, the new 10mm was decreed as the new whiz-bang caliber for the FBI.  Then not too long after that, the gnarly 10mm had to be throttled back, due to agents that had a hard time managing the gun. Hence, the .40, as I remember.  (I do not know if the FBI ever officially went to a .40, but I think they had some type of reduced-load 10mm (?)

   So, as the pendulum swings, the FBI went from whatever caliber they had before the shootout,  up to a 10mm, and now a 9mm?

  I would be curious to know how many agencies nationwide already use the 9mm.  

 

Cripes...its already impossible to get my Federal 9mm order. This is not going to help

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

Bill, back then the FBI had a mix of .357 and 9mm I believe. One of the two shooters took a 9mm more or less to the heart and didn't quite die fast enough, shooting several agents even when he was supposed to be 'dead'.

 

I know in the 2000s FBI agents in my area were carrying Glock 22's and appeared pretty happy with them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Maybe, after countless arguments, debates, papers, and screaming matches about what handgun round has the most death-power, people are finally starting to understand that it is a fucking defensive handgun, and, no matter what, it will never be the best fight ender.  I think that the increase in agencies issuing patrol rifles has had an impact on re-examining the handgun role in LE.  I think that more agencies, and Officers, have been shifting their tactics to considering the rifle as the primary, rather than something in the trunk to get out in a rare occurrence.

 

At least, that's what I hope. 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

SA Urey Patrick of the FBI Firearms Training Unit wrote the following to emphasize this point:

 

“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.  Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder (fired) weapons as possible.”

Originally Posted by yetibob:

       

Sage advice from SA Patrick.


       


Yes. He's a Mainer too, I might add. Been trying to track him down to see if he'll come speak for a couple hours at tactical team training, and put to bed some myths about overpenetration and pistol effectiveness. Too often our guys don't take the rifle, and find an excuse to run just the G22.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

Originally Posted by MrMurphy:

Bill, back then the FBI had a mix of .357 and 9mm I believe...

I do not know if they were still official issue, but three agents in Miami used .38s. Three also had 9s and IIRC 1 non-issue .357. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

With respect, whatever handguns they had on 11 April '86 weren't as relevant as absence the rifles they needed to shoot Platt & Mattix with. But we weren't as smart then as we are now. Those two would've most likely faced a VERY different type of response today.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Originally Posted by Bill, Idaho:

Ok, let me think this through................speaking in generalities,  a long time ago they had the "FBI shoot-out in Miami".  Several FBI agents were killed as I recall. Somewhere along the line it was determined the FBI needed a better caliber. Soon thereafter, the new 10mm was decreed as the new whiz-bang caliber for the FBI.  Then not too long after that, the gnarly 10mm had to be throttled back, due to agents that had a hard time managing the gun. Hence, the .40, as I remember.  (I do not know if the FBI ever officially went to a .40, but I think they had some type of reduced-load 10mm (?)

   So, as the pendulum swings, the FBI went from whatever caliber they had before the shootout,  up to a 10mm, and now a 9mm?

  I would be curious to know how many agencies nationwide already use the 9mm.  

 

The biggest factor from Miami 1986 to today is the advances in bullet design. The changes in how bullets and components are built has made the caliber race equal in terminal ballistics...now it becomes a race to see who can build the best performing terminally round with the lowest recoil so the follow on shots hit their marks....

Being that everyone in the industry lives and dies off the FBI ballistic models, and they provide that info to PD's it should start a slow move out of 40...

Miami was an anomaly, the exception that proved the rule.  The analysis and breakdowns that I've read essentially said that the 9mm Silvertip performed as expected, Platt had a mortal wound when he got out of the vehicle.  Blaming the caliber was a scapegoat rather than racking it up to a problem with the fact that they had poor tactics and planning and were going up against a rifle with handguns.  And the biggie, dedicated opponents.  Platt was a combat veteran from Vietnam (US Army) and Matix was a former Marine and US Army Military Police. 

 

You could as easily place the blame on military veterans.  Or after the N. Hollywood bank robbery/shootout, decide that the police need full auto 7.62x51 rifles with armor piercing ammo at all times.

 

And as was said in the prior post, bullet design has come a long way since 1986.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I would argue that the bullet designs coming from the AAR process are not as important as the recognition that Gary quote from S/A Patrick. If I had to go to something I could predict would lead to me using deadly force, I would hope to never use the pistols I am carrying, because I solved the problem with the AR.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Originally Posted by Dorsai:

Miami was an anomaly, the exception that proved the rule.  The analysis and breakdowns that I've read essentially said that the 9mm Silvertip performed as expected, Platt had a mortal wound when he got out of the vehicle.  Blaming the caliber was a scapegoat rather than racking it up to a problem with the fact that they had poor tactics and planning and were going up against a rifle with handguns.  And the biggie, dedicated opponents.  Platt was a combat veteran from Vietnam (US Army) and Matix was a former Marine and US Army Military Police. 

 

You could as easily place the blame on military veterans.  Or after the N. Hollywood bank robbery/shootout, decide that the police need full auto 7.62x51 rifles with armor piercing ammo at all times.

 

And as was said in the prior post, bullet design has come a long way since 1986.

Exactly, at least in the version the FBI teaches, Platt had a terminal wound as the fight essentially started.

 

When you have on incident of this type every 10 or 20 years, it can be easy to learn the wrong lessons. In my unqualified opinion, this takedown simply wouldn't have happened today, for two primary reasons. One, US government agencies are (rightly) extremely worried about taking violent fights into the public. The second is that the apprehension of these two would have likely been pawned off on local police forces, or pushed up to national (Quantico based) resources. No one wants to be host to the next Miami. The guys who have been around for a while are happy to share stories about how risk averse everyone has become.

To dispel the multiple myths about this incident see

A Forensic Analysis of the April 11 1986 FBI Firefight, W.French Anderson.

It may prove enlightening...

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_17?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=forensic+analysis+of+the+april+11+1986+fbi+firefight&sprefix=forensic+analysis%2Cstripbooks%2C362

Originally Posted by Buford Boone:

Is is so difficult to believe that projectile design has evolved?

 

"These ain't your Grandpa's bullets".

 

For some people - yes.  Impossible even. They know what they know - your fancy test results be damned. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

Too bad scientific fact does not always match perceptions...

But I heard it on the internet, so it MUST be correct!

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Were I a betting man, I'd put my money on the pendulum inexorably swinging back towards 9mm, albeit not as fast as it swung from 9mm to .40.

 

I'd also bet that there'll inevitably be those who won't let the facts get in the way of shitte opinions or jumped-to incorrect conclusions.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

Originally Posted by parapyropig:

Were I a betting man, I'd put my money on the pendulum inexorably swinging back towards 9mm, albeit not as fast as it swung from 9mm to .40.

 

I'd also bet that there'll inevitably be those who won't let the facts get in the way of shitte opinions or jumped-to incorrect conclusions.

I agree that we will see a swing back to 9mm.

 

Facts are up to the individual to interpret. One good week long jury trial will demonstrate that fact. 

 

But remember that many agencies went from 9mm to 40 because of the AWB. Companies offered to upgrade old 9mm guns for new 40 guns. Usually at a zero cost, one-for-one swap. (That's how my agency got night sights. They came attached to a free gun. We just had to trade all of our old guns with those hi-cap magazines.) All of those old guns came with three Hi-capacity magazines that were worth as much if not more than the gun itself on the open market. 

 

I think you will see some 40 cal agencies take a hard look at their cost for training ammo in 40, then compare the training cost of ammo in 9mm. It will now be easier to sell the idea of switching to 9mm to save the cost difference of training ammo by pushing the idea that "The FBI just switched..."  Just don't push the cost savings. Save that for the final selling point. If you're a civilian shooter or a smaller agency that is buying a couple of cases of training ammo a year, it's not that big of a deal. If your training ammo comes on a semi truck, or on several semi trucks, then all of the sudden you are talking real money with the cost difference. And with every agency facing tighter budgets?

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Originally Posted by HGT75:

I doubt that DHS based law enforcement agencies would switch right away considering the massive amount of .40SW they've contracted to buy over a number of years.

They have contracts to purchase at a fixed price, up to a certain amount.  This does not mean it has actually been purchased yet.  in general, federal appropriations are for current year only, so it makes it hard to buy 5 years worth of ammo.  

______________________________________

"First with the head, then with the heart"

 

Joined: 1/12/04              Location: Southern Arizona

Originally Posted by DNW:
Originally Posted by HGT75:

I doubt that DHS based law enforcement agencies would switch right away considering the massive amount of .40SW they've contracted to buy over a number of years.

They have contracts to purchase at a fixed price, up to a certain amount.  This does not mean it has actually been purchased yet.  in general, federal appropriations are for current year only, so it makes it hard to buy 5 years worth of ammo.  

It's called an IDIQ contract (Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite Quantity).  Lack of understanding is often fuel for lots of Internet debate, and as in the case of the DHS contract, conspiracy theories.

First FBI reports push everyone away from 9mm, now they drag them back...I can solve this problem for the FBI on what to issue their agents...a laptop. That and whenever they are let out of the building and into the field, they draw a street cop from the pool...the street cop should do the driving as well.

 

 

As always my $.02 and YMMV.

Stay Safe bros, Dennis

Originally Posted by ocmsrzr:

First FBI reports push everyone away from 9mm, now they drag them back...I can solve this problem for the FBI on what to issue their agents...a laptop. That and whenever they are let out of the building and into the field, they draw a street cop from the pool...the street cop should do the driving as well.

Okay, that was good!

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

One local agency had 40 Sigs until a OIS where the perp (shockingly) wasn't vaporized when he was hit in the abdomen.  The perp even managed to continue fighting the officer after being shot. Double shock!  So of course, the folks in charge decided they needed 45s so they adopted HK USPs.  They recently decided to replace the USPs after a decade.  I told a person on the selection committee that they should consider the Glock 9mms and repeated the reasons stated by wise people here.  I also said if they are dead set on a 40 they should strongly consider the M&P, again just repeating SME opinions I read here.  So what did they select?  Glock 40s.  Could have been worse I suppose I heard someone suggested XDs.

I think this is "working smarter, not harder". Formerly, way way back, a .30 caliber rifle was a joke! You needed a .68 caliber lump of lead. Then came advancements in smokeless powder, etc. and smaller and smaller rifle calibers became common place and were quite lethal. On the Dark Continent, big-bore rifles, even smokeless, and big belted magnums still ruled until quite recently. Now, with the advent of Barnes monolithic copper bullets, many are going to the .30-06 and .308 for a lot of game over there, and dropping them hard. The .223 is a viable 2-300 yard deer cartridge using 70gr TSX/SOCOM loadings. We are and have been seeing the same with handgun ammunition. Technology is allowing us to do more with less KE and physical mass. The trend continues, then hits a wall, then picks up again as new advancements occur. Many kick and scream and "wish for the old days when real calibers began with a *whatever*...", but the facts remain.

Sounds like this has stalled out for a little while.

 

I can't imagine there will be any conversion until an entire academy class has been issued Gen 4 17s, and that is many months away. Supposedly there were going to be a few selected for 9mm T&E, but that hasn't happened yet as far as I know.

 

I think the technology arguments are bullshit. It isn't like 9mm advances in a bubble. Any improvements in .355 projectiles are also concurrently made in .40 projectiles. If we can get 22 mag to penetrate to 18", are we going to declare that due to "higher capacity" and "less recoil" and "the overriding importance of shot placement" that 9mm and higher are obsolete?

 

I don't mind 9mm. I've got quite a bit of time carrying one around in DOD. But knowing that the first shot matters, the first shot for any caliber IS THE EXACT SAME, I don't mind .40 as a duty round. If anything the result of all this should be the choice among LE professionals to choose the caliber that is right for them, be it 9mm, 40, 45 or (if you like spending $1+ a round, .357 sig).

Originally Posted by Middlelength:

Sounds like this has stalled out for a little while.

 

I can't imagine there will be any conversion until an entire academy class has been issued Gen 4 17s, and that is many months away. Supposedly there were going to be a few selected for 9mm T&E, but that hasn't happened yet as far as I know.

 

I think the technology arguments are bullshit. It isn't like 9mm advances in a bubble. Any improvements in .355 projectiles are also concurrently made in .40 projectiles. If we can get 22 mag to penetrate to 18", are we going to declare that due to "higher capacity" and "less recoil" and "the overriding importance of shot placement" that 9mm and higher are obsolete?

 

I don't mind 9mm. I've got quite a bit of time carrying one around in DOD. But knowing that the first shot matters, the first shot for any caliber IS THE EXACT SAME, I don't mind .40 as a duty round. If anything the result of all this should be the choice among LE professionals to choose the caliber that is right for them, be it 9mm, 40, 45 or (if you like spending $1+ a round, .357 sig).

Quite right, but there are diminishing returns. For example, there still exists .50 caliber rifles...yet are they needed on the battlefield for 100 meter engagements against unarmored personnel? No.

 

We can step down to a smaller caliber like the 5.56 and .30 caliber.

 

Yes. The .45 ACP is still going to destroy more tissue...but will it really matter? No. If you make a poor hit with a 9mm, a .45 won't likely salvage it.

 

If indeed the .22 rimfire were to expand to 0.5", penetrate 14-18", and ignite as reliably as the 5.56, and have a trajectory similar to the 5.56, then yes, I bet we would transition over to it. However, we aren't there yet. I doubt we will be. But never say never.

 

quote:
"I think the technology arguments are bullshit. It isn't like 9mm advances in a bubble. Any improvements in .355 projectiles are also concurrently made in .40 projectiles."

Not necessarily.  Almost all .40 projectiles were designed after the advent of modern wound ballistic parameters and intermediate barrier testing; on the other hand, many 9 mm projectiles were older designs.  As newer 9 mm projectiles have come to market engineered to the same intermediate barrier specifications as most .40's have had since their genesis, 9 mm has demonstrated a bigger leap in performance than .40's.

I think the technology arguments are bullshit.

 

You can think that all you want.  People used to think the earth was flat.  That didn't make it flat.  Note Doc's comment, which explains stuff like this;

 

Check these out;
Win 230 gr Ranger Talon JHP (RA45T) fired from
1911 at ave vel of 911 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.3", Ave
RD = 0.70", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 227.2gr
4LD: Pen
= 25.1", Ave RD = 0.45"
, Ave RL = 0.60", Ave RW = 228.8 gr
AG:
Pen = 16.1", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.48", Ave RW = 189.6 gr

Fed HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 879 f/s; 5
shot ave below::
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.80", Ave RL = 0.44",
Ave RW = 231.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 13.4", Ave RD =
0.55",
Ave RL = 0.71", Ave RW = 231.2 gr
AG: Pen = 16.3", Ave
RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.58", Ave RW = 230.6 gr

vs

9mm Fed 147 gr HST JHP; ave vel=997 fps (G19)
BG: pen=14.6", RD=0.61", RL=0.39", RW=147.1gr
4LD: pen=15.6", RD=0.56", RL=0.53", RW=145.5gr

Win 124 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA124TP) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1238 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 13.0”, RD = 0.62”, RL= 0.35", RW =
114.7gr
4LD: Pen = 13.0”, RD = 0.59”, RL= 0.40", RW = 116.8gr
AG: Pen = 18.9”, RD = 0.50”, RL= 0.52", RW =
117.5gr

vs

.40 S&W Fed
180 gr HST JHP; ave vel=959 fps (S&W 4006)
BG: pen=14.0",
RD=0.70", RL=0.43", RW=181.2gr
4LD: pen=15.0",
RD=0.56"
, RL=0.52", RW=180.7gr

Note in my cherry
picked tests, bolding the four layer denim test to illustrate (Which BTW is a
very street realistic test in my observation of bullets recovered from real
bodies), the 147gr 9mm beats both the .40 and .45 by either more expansion or
more penetration, or both.

Even through auto glass,
the event where the bigger bullets are supposed to have some sort of huge edge,
the 124gr non-bonded +P Ranger-T gives better penetration in the noted
testing.

The truth is, on average, they all work
about the same, and they all work well if the shooter has all their crap in one
bag, if not then none of them work.

I got lazy and quoted myself from elsewhere.  I put the above info into the "too close to call on any given day" category.

 

 

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Originally Posted by tpd223:

You can think that all you want.  People used to think the earth was flat.   

 


 Yup, but the "science" and the "proof" they presented at the time was excepted...to my way of thinking, that comment can cut both ways, and just as easily dismiss the 9mm.

 

 Heres where I start to wonder...every argument for the 9mm starts with "the best ammo", well, what if I don't have the best ammo..for whatever reason?

 I'm a bit of a mouth breather, so when people continuously post all those numbers, I start to tune out. But, to my mind, "cherry picking" loads, tests and data, doesn't mean much.

 

 I know at one time, Doc commented for certain situations, he would carry a M&P40, Mr. Boone had words to the effect of .."all things being equal, the 40 has a slight advantage", he also stated the 40 did not run at higher pressure then the 9mm.

Good enough for me.

 

 Much like Glocks & 1911's, I don't have an issue with the 9mm, "9mm guys" on the other hand I can do with out.

 

 Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

If I primarily was in rural/wilderness areas or worked principally around vehicles, I think a .40 would be a great option and I'd likely carry an M&P40, especially if I got free ammunition to practice with.  In urban or suburban environments, then 9 mm makes a lot of sense, particularly if I have to purchase my own ammo.

Bob, the "best ammo" is highly available.  One can pick Ranger-T, Gold Dot or HST in any of those calibers and drive on.

 

If I had to use WWB JHPs then I'd want the 180gr .40 since it's one of the few that works well in all of the FBI tests (heavy clothing and auto glass being the two that seem to be the most important in my estimation).

 

Last time I talked to Bufford he told me that the .40 in full power mode with the right bullets was normally measurably better than most other service pistols in a shot-for-shot basis.  The issue is folks who can't handle the snap and guns that can't run with said ammo.  This, in my mind, makes it similar to arguing that the 10mm is the best pistol round you can buy.  In theory yes, in practice it gets more complicated.

 

If I had to carry ball ammo for whatever reason I'd go with the 9mm because everything in pistols sucks when shooting ball ammo, so lots of bullets faster seems like the best bet to me.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Considering that the hit ratio across the country by police appears to be on the 20% and under level, and that fact that pistol shooting pretty much sucks across the board, regardless of caliber, configuration, MV or advertising-maybe we should be spending more time ensuring that we can actually hit with what is ever in that chamber and magazine right fucking now.

And this is where I see an advantage to the 9mm for most places.  When I was running our program, and just before then, we had a string of nine OISs in a row with 100% hits.  I think that's pretty profound considering the national averages.

 

That we could shoot about 30% more for the same money using 9mm over .40, and about twice as much as using .45s, is an advantage we made good use of.  Everyone I know has a finite ammo budget.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

What I worry about with the training argument (i.e. 9mm is easy to train to), having witnessed a steady slide in standards already in only 3 years of law enforcement, is that much of the "9mm effect" in my agency comes from shooters who were initially trained on .40, in a POI that allowed almost 0 rounds for shooters to self diagnosed. A lot of words to say that, of course shooters who transition from 40 to 9mm see increased scores. Their body still remembers .40. If went from 10mm to .40 I would expect to see similar improvements. But would this all hold true if they started on 9mm? We used 9mm NATO in the military and most shooters struggled, and this from a big heavy Beretta 92. 

 

At least in my agency, in 5 months of firearms training, nearly every round is shot is previously accounted for and shot at a specific yard line, in a specific manner, within a specific timeline. So I came in a pretty accomplished shooter and left with some pretty gaping deficiencies that took a few months to address, despite a pretty rigorous (self imposed) dry fire regimen. 

 

Our qual course now has shooters so close for so many of the rounds, with any hit within a human torso area counting that you wonder how anyone could fail to qual (80% hits on target). But they do, and you have to be a poor, poor shooter to do so.

 

Is 9mm the answer to this? In the short term, maybe. But we may just enable people to miss faster, and with more rounds.

 

 As I always say in these calibre wars..

 I am not a 9mm hater, and generally dislike people who talk about guns being set on stun, they don't make a 46, and what not.

 I am much more concerned with how my gun is set up, then I am about calibre, or bullet for that matter...I'd gladly carry 9mm ball, and have carried .40 ball, if the gun can be set up how I prefer.

 I regularly recommend 9mm to friends and coworkers.

 What I do take issue with, is the idea that everyone that chooses a .40, is completely ignorant, and made that choice based on penis size, or what not.

 

 I know high quality ammo is available right now, .22LR used to be also...what if all i can find is WWB or hydra -shok? (I've been issued more hydra-shok over the years then anything else)

 What if I decide that little extra penetration is important to me? What if I don't find the recoil objectionable, or worship at the alter of split times?

 I've seen an awful lot of smaller statured shooters(I might be considered one) & new shooters, shoot .40's just fine.

 I'll give up 2 rounds of 9mm for that.

 

 

 My issues witht this subject, right now, are much more then 9mm vs 40...

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

This isn't that hard to grasp. 

 

1) The terminal performance of 9mm has come a long way since the 80's and 90's where it didn't fare so well. 

2) For all intents and purposes, all handguns are weak and not our first choice to stop a threat.  All handgun calibers essentially perform the same. 

3) If they perform the same, then you get some HUGE advantages from the mass issue of 9mm handguns.

    a) More ammo per gun/magazine

    b) Easier caliber to master/shoot well

    c) Less expensive for agency and individual purchases

    d) Less damage/wear on the weapons (saving money on maintenance and replacements)

    e) More universally available (think worldwide).  Anyone want to guess what agents are issued when they deploy OCONUS?  That's right, they leave the G22 at home and take a G17 with them. 

    f) Faster follow-up shots (since we all know handguns suck at putting down 2 legged predators)

 

An interesting fact many may not know about is that the FBI issued 40S&W duty ammo is downloaded by approximately 100fps.  The current 180gr Ranger, and the previous 165gr Gold Dots that are bought by the agency are slower than the same ammo when purchases at Bass Pro or Wal-Mart.  This was to make it easier to shoot.  Not the best idea IMHO, but then they don't care what I think. 

 

Also, remember we are discussing an agency with 13,000 or so sworn.  That's a lot of guns, ammo, and time to get agents ready for the street.  Using 9mm is a win for that scenario. 

 

The bottom line is that the difference is not worth the debate that will always ensue when people get their feelings hurt because agency XYZ doesn't use their favorite ABC bullet/caliber... This is in no way a step backwards in time as some have suggested.  If we should be surprised by anything, it's that they are doing something that actually makes perfect sense. 

Here are some random thoughts.

 

Doc says he would find the .40 a plus working primarily around vehicles.  It seems to me that 90% of shootings I see reported (LEO or not) are around vehicles (carjackings, ends of LEO chases, road rage, crime related/drug dealing).  There seems to me that there s a disconnect here.

 

I currently carry a Glock 23.  I shoot 180 grain ammo.  Yes, it kicks more than 9mm, but to me it is softer shooting than a full size .357 mag revolver (with full power loads) that was itself once the be all end all of LEO weapons.  Having said this, I am ready to go back to 9mm for logistics reasons.  Unfortunately, I can't find 9mm ammo (locally) so it doesn't make much since to change right now.

 

 

Originally Posted by Calhoun123:

Here are some random thoughts.

 

Doc says he would find the .40 a plus working primarily around vehicles.  It seems to me that 90% of shootings I see reported (LEO or not) are around vehicles (carjackings, ends of LEO chases, road rage, crime related/drug dealing).  There seems to me that there s a disconnect here.

  

I work for an agency that currently has a staffing of around 950 officers (Down from 1,150, but that's another topic).

 

I don't have the stats in front of me currently, but the majority of our shootings are not around cars. If we were a State Patrol agency, then of course I'm sure that stat would be much different. 

 

The FBI has had to "download" their 40 duty rounds, twice, as I have been told. This was to assist with the ability of their weaker shooters with recoil management and qualification scores. I can't help but to think this would have a negative effect on the reliability of the gun with this ammunition. 

 

As an agency, one must look to the weaker shooters, not the stronger shooters. One's goal should be to ensure the best chance of officer survival for all officers within the agency. 

 

From this point of view, I think the 9mm makes sense as an agency issued round. The cost savings of training ammunition is also a huge factor in these lean economic times of ever tightening budgets. 

 

Not only have I read the test results of the various rounds, but I attended a couple of ballistic workshops we hosted. "Seeing is believing" as they say. And I say with my own eyes the "difference" in performance with the same design of bullet in the different calibers. 

 

I have nothing against the 40 cal round. If I were issued 40 cal training ammunition, I would own a few of the guns. But I do get tired of the uneducated who want to argue how inadequate the 9mm round is.  And how superior the 40 cal round would be due to the huge increase in bullet diameter. I deal with this on occasion when talking people first interested in personal protection and CCW.  My first counter to those lost souls is to ask if they are aware what the metric diameter is of the 40 cal round? That would be 10mm. The extra 1mm increase in diameter is so huge...

 

Over the years, I have seen people shot with every caliber of pistol that an individual could possibly steal. I have no delusions of a miraculous "One Shot Stop". I have seen it happen at times. If a handgun round does stop the aggressive actions when I need it to, well good!  But I train and plan for things to not go so well. My faith in a one shot stop from a handgun is about as strong as my faith in humanity... 

 

Fortunately those types don't visit this site much.  And when they do, their time spent trolling is limited before they get spanked and sent home.

 

This topic has seemed to have drifted to a 9mm vs. 40 cal debate. Color me shocked.

 

I feel if you are an individual who carries a 40 cal pistol, using ammunition that is not downloaded like the FBI currently does, and you are satisfied with it, great! It is a very good round.

 

But for an agency of around 13,000 agents with a verity of body sizes, builds, and skill levels, then I feel the 9mm round makes more sense. Especially for those agents who are weaker shooters.  

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

 

 Just to clarify..

 I do not think or am I arguing that the 9mm is inadequate.

 Only that not everyone that carry's a .40 does so in complete ignorance.

 Add to that, with the FBI and other agencies switching calibres and guns, left and right, I gave up trying to keep up.

 Some very well thought of individuals said the M&P was IT, then it wsn't and the Walther was, then back to the Glock...whatfuckingever..

 

 There is a growing trend of reverse/elitism on the net, including LFer, if you don't have the right gun, calibre, scope mount, RDS, lube, etc etc..you are wrong. While I agree there is whole lot of crap out there, I refuse to believe there is only one acceptable choice of any thing.

 A few years back, on a certain 1911 centric forum, the overwhelming insinuation was if you had a beavertail, & Novak sights, you were duped by slick marketing and were an idiot....neverming the huge numbers of real deal guys that used those things.

 

The whole thing is very tiring..

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Bob,

My last post was not directed towards you. I do not feel that you have been argumentative against the 9mm or in general with your responses.  Quite the opposite actually. You present sound judgement and logic in your choice.

I agree with you that there are various options out there. There does exist a certain amount of elitism on the internet. There also exists a certain amount of ego and personal preference being interjected into decisions that should be based off of logic and factual data. Unfortunately this ego and personal bias transcends the internet and appears its ugly head within agencies.  Especially by individuals with no qualifications other than the fact of their rank within the organization.

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

If we spent 1/10th of 1% of the time and emotion we put towards various caliber / kit discussions on improving mindset and fundamental gun fighting skills, we would be better off by a factor of billions.

 

I've carried 9mm, .40, .45, and .357 sig calibers over the years on various jobs, both CONUS and OCONUS.  I'm perfectly fine with any of them.  At the end of the day, they are all just handgun calibers, and will perform as such.

 

There are a lot of piece of shit pistols out there that I would not be comfortable carrying.  There are also a lot high quality, highly reliable pistols that I would have no problem trusting my life to.

 

There are a lot of high quality, well made plate carriers, holsters, helmets, lights, belts, gloves, etc., etc., etc., on the market.  Many of them will work great for a lot of people.

 

There are also a lot of piece of shit Condor and Blackhawk pieces of kit out there.  

 

Figure out the weapons and kit that work for you.  Educate yourself.  Do not be cheap in this process.

 

After making intelligent choices, get to work on what really matters.

 

I'll take 4 switched on guys with .38 revolvers and minimal gear any day of the week over 4 guys who look like they are walking a tactical runway.

 

Sorry fellas - I know I'm largely preaching to the choir here.  This shit just drives me nuts sometimes.

 

John

 

 

"Whose car we gonna take?"

Originally Posted by El Cid:

3) If they perform the same, then you get some HUGE advantages from the mass issue of 9mm handguns.

    a) More ammo per gun/magazine

    b) Easier caliber to master/shoot well

    c) Less expensive for agency and individual purchases

    d) Less damage/wear on the weapons (saving money on maintenance and replacements)

    e) More universally available (think worldwide).  Anyone want to guess what agents are issued when they deploy OCONUS?  That's right, they leave the G22 at home and take a G17 with them. 

    f) Faster follow-up shots (since we all know handguns suck at putting down 2 legged predators)

 

We all end up prone to exaggeration when it comes to firearms. I'm guilty of it myself. I think I can phrase this in a way we can mostly agree on (because other than your point about OCONUS availability, none of the above is HUGE).

 

9mm gets you a ~15% improvement in ammo capacity, shot splits, ammo costs, and weapon wear and tear, at a cost of ~15% decrease in terminal effects, bore diameter, and projectile weight.  

 

Thats what all this teeth gnashing comes down to. As someone who would actually be affected by this shift, I welcome the option to have the choice of an issued 9mm.

 

But notice I said CHOICE. I don't know what round will be selected, at what grain weight, and in what quantity it will be issued. I don't know if they will retain the inane policy whereby I can carry a 26, 27, 22, or 21, but not a 19 or 23, which would actually make sense. 

 

The FBI FTU section is (in my opinion) a few smart guys led and managed by functional retards. The overall instruction (excepting a few locked on contractors and the practical applications/defensive tactics units) is piss poor. I've seen better shooters come out of a four day Front Sight course than some that come out of 5 months at the FBI. And guess what? That is probably most LE agencies as well. So we talk about reduced shot splits, recoil, better hits on target, and I worry we'll still have the same problem, just with a slightly smaller round.

Originally Posted by John A Brown:

If we spent 1/10th of 1% of the time and emotion we put towards various caliber / kit discussions on improving mindset and fundamental gun fighting skills, we would be better off by a factor of billions.

 

...

 

Figure out the weapons and kit that work for you.  Educate yourself.  Do not be cheap in this process.

 

After making intelligent choices, get to work on what really matters.

 

I'll take 4 switched on guys with .38 revolvers and minimal gear any day of the week over 4 guys who look like they are walking a tactical runway.

 

... 

JAB,

While I largely agree with the sentiment, writing from much less experience then yourself; these comments seem misplaced in this thread, if not anti-intellectual to minor detriment. 

Your solution describes individual choices, when it seems organizational issue - the baseline from which many's individual choices stem from - is what's at hand. As well, it's certainly been had out here on LF that overprioritizing software to the detriment of hardware is unacceptable; each needs to be represented with excellence to maximize the individual's ability. 

In your opening line, you castigate the process of evaluating calibers and whatnot; and then later say we should "Figure out..." That reads like dumping empiricism and quantification with a non-specific warm and fuzzy sort of rubric. I'm a bit confused about what you were replying to.

Jules

Re the FBI's 10mm and .40s&w loads. They never "down loaded" anything. Their "ideal" round was spec'd as a .40 180 grain JHP pushed at approximately 1000 fps, just under, actually, and that's what they got. Their loads were and remain basically the same loads, 180 grains pushed at approximately 1000 fps. If anything, their loads have evolved to be marginally faster.

 

DHS' largest agency, ICE, is apparently considering a change of pistols and possibly caliber. And as with the FBI, as they go others will follow. They conducted an agency wide survey that can apparently be summed up as "we want Glock 19s or 23s." They currently issue Sig 229s in .40s&w but allow personally owned pistols to include Glock 17s and 26s; the G26s are apparently very popular. They are .40s&w cheerleaders, though, so it will be interesting to see what they choose and how the decision is spun.

 

I settled on 9mm for my duty pistols myself as soon as it was an option for all the reason stated throughout the thread. I get the distinct idea that many of my peers think that I might as well be throwing rocks. The flack I get...

God, country, family

Thanks Doc.  I knew you or Buford would have my back.  I know FTU instructors who ran to sign out as many boxes of 165gr Gold Dots as they were able when the announcement was made that the future purchases would be neutered. 

Middlelength, it's my understanding the G19 is at the top of the list to be added as an authorized POW. Probably because it's the gun all the instructors want to carry.  Those with grandfathered G19's seem to be the envy of many. 

Yes, I said "HUGE" because we are talking about an agency wide adoption.  That 15% difference may not be such a big deal when looking at individual shooters, but when the totality of mass issue weapons and ammo is a factor, dropping the high pressure 40 for a 9mm is significant in my opinion. 

If it were up to me (and of course it isn't), agents would be issued a 9mm (G17 or 19) and have the option to purchase other 9mm and 45 ACP pistols upon getting to the field.  I wouldn't leave 40 on the table. I don't see the added value.  Regardless of how talented and skilled a shooter, I believe that your abilities with a G17 will outperform your use of the G22.  Why tolerate increased muzzle flip and more wear on the gun when the terminal performance is so close?

El Cid's comments are accurate--both of the last two issued .40 loads were neutered mid-contract.

 

quote:

"9mm gets you a ~15% improvement in ammo capacity, shot splits, ammo costs, and weapon wear and tear, at a cost of ~15% decrease in terminal effects, bore diameter, and projectile weight.

 

The above is not accurate in my experience.  9 mm pistols tend to have more like double to triple the service life of an equivalent pistol in .40 S&W.  If using a neutered .40 load, there may be no decrease in terminal effects when shifting to 9 mm.

Originally Posted by El Cid:
If it were up to me (and of course it isn't), agents would be issued a 9mm (G17 or 19) and have the option to purchase other 9mm and 45 ACP pistols upon getting to the field.  I wouldn't leave 40 on the table.

 

 IMO, thats no better then any other Chief/RO/FTU whathaveyou guy choosing .45/.357sig/whathaveyou

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

I totally get what you are saying Bob, and I think it's two sides of the same coin.

 

Guys who have an articulable reason for a bigger caliber?  Sure. 

 

I have a friend who carries a .45, he shoots it very well.  He reloads his own ammo and shoots in bulk.  He maxes the qual every single time he hits the range, trains on the side at name brand classes, etc.   He makes a lot of car stops and also lives where he might have to put down stuff like an injured moose, the bigger bullets make him more happier about stuff like that.

 

I'd tell a guy like that to carry on.

 

 

 

Guys bagging on the 9mm as a "girl's gun" "because .45!!!!!" or .40?  Retards.

 

 

 

Oh, on the other thing, I have personally crono'd the standard and the FBI 165gr Gold Dot, the over the counter stuff was running 1185 that day, the FBI ammo was in the mid 900s.  There was a big difference in felt recoil from a gen 3 G22.

 

This ammo did make a couple of choking G22s run just fine though due to decreasing the slide velocity to reasonable levels.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Originally Posted by R.Moran:
Originally Posted by El Cid:
If it were up to me (and of course it isn't), agents would be issued a 9mm (G17 or 19) and have the option to purchase other 9mm and 45 ACP pistols upon getting to the field.  I wouldn't leave 40 on the table.

 

 IMO, thats no better then any other Chief/RO/FTU whathaveyou guy choosing .45/.357sig/whathaveyou

 

Bob


In a perfect world, we could all carry whatever caliber and make/model of pistol fits us best, and with which we are most confident (within reason of course - major calibers/brands).  For some smaller agencies that may work well, but my statement was predicated upon a worldwide agency with 13,000+ armed personnel. 

 

I think agents should be able to choose between 9mm and 45ACP.  If they want a small, easy to conceal, and easy to master weapon, get a 9mm.  If they want/need larger bullets, then get the 45.  I personally carry both on and off duty.  I really see no reason to have 40 as an option with the increase in wear on the guns, and the increase in muzzle flip.  If those cons bring significantly better terminal performance, then I'm all for sucking it up and carrying a 40.  For my entire life I've had handguns in 9mm/45ACP.  When I got into LE, I was issued a G22 and I embraced it and shot it almost exclusively for several years. 

 

As I've gotten more experienced, and more educated, I realized that for me the 40 does nothing better than 9/45, and IMHO comes with more drawbacks.  My agency is limited on what we can carry, but I'm carrying a G21 on my belt, and a G26 as a BUG.  We aren't approved for G30's, so nothing I could carry would have magazine compatibility with the G21. 

 

Back to my comments about being "king for a day", I would certainly allow a wider variety of handguns (more Glocks, M&P's, HK's).  But with the agency being responsible for ammo, and the previously mentioned performance issue, why should they buy 3 types of ammo when 2 choices (9/45) will cover what most LEO's need/want.  This is even more true in my view because the 40 is not even true 40S&W (i.e. They have it downloaded). 

 

The other thing I have to remind myself of from time to time... we are talking about general issue weapons to agencies where 99% of the LEO's are not gun enthusiasts.  They only shoot on the days when they are forced to go to the range, and then usually whine the entire time.  If we were talking about a gun/ammo policy for those of us who post on LF... that would be a different story. 

There is nothing here that I have not posted before about why I went back to 9mm.

 

Logistically for any large entity the idea of supplying multiple pistol calibers is rather asinine.   If an agency wants to give agents, or officers/whatever latitude to carry different weapons, then I feel that the support aspect is borne by the individual -- the agency may supply a list of approved "do it yourself" items, but bearing the cost is to me unreasonable.

 

I'm not a big fan of .40 but if someone feels they need it, or .45 or .357SIG, or .44AUTOMAG, then those costs and the support of the platform should be an individual responsibility.

 

I'd much rather see agencies spend money on more carbine for their forces than try to supply multiple pistol calibers.

 

 

 

 

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Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

Originally Posted by tpd223:

Guys bagging on the 9mm as a "girl's gun" "because .45!!!!!" or .40?  Retards.

 

 Agreed!! 100%

 

 ElCId,

 If the 9mm is GTG..why authorize the .45 at all? Why not issue one calibre that splits the difference?

 What I meant by my comment, was..a lot of guys(not just in these threads, but life in general) bitch about admin types making decisions based on what they feel/think/like, whatever, but if they were "King for a day", they'd turn around and do the same thing, or if they happen to like the decision, no matter how it was arrived at, then it's OK, also.

 

 I also agree with Kevin, more long guns, but that most likely won't happen, and 9mm is probably the most logical choice for a large agency...but..

 

 -Down loaded .40? I am old enough to remember all the 9mm v .45 article of the 80/90's(see, some body was asking the question)..and I distincly remember the the intro of the .40 being a 180grn JHP at 950fps so it mirrored the popular .45 loads of the day...185's at similiar velocity.

 

 -Wear and tear and gun issues, like G22's...I think thats just it...a gun issue.

 

 -Training..as I've stated, I've been issued a G22 at three facilities now, and everyone of them has had multiple females, with...uh..less then SRT training, and one or two with..the vast majority of them shot it wwell enough to qual, and thats on the older DOE qual.

 Most of the poor shooters I see, going to 9mm is not going to help them, nor is going to a 1911 and it's magic trigger either.

 Next training day, I am going to ask the training staff guy's what they see. Most just shoot shrug and shoot what's issued. One is an IPSC Grandmaster, he might have a bit of insight on the training thing.

 If your .org is going to spend the saved ammo money, on more ammo and training, good for them. It's been my experience that money saved on the training and op's side is rarely spent there..but moved over to some other BS.

 

 If I went to work tomorrow and got a G17 with ball ammo, I'd be fine...I'd be fucking estatic if it had a light, 5.5 connector, and vickers controls...I might actually smile if it was an M&P40 though..

 

 Why do people who advocate the 9mm, say they would go to a .45 if they had a capacity limit of 7-10rds?

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

The down loaded FBI ammo information is helping me to make sense of something now. A friend of mine visited home and had some training ammo with him. I remember shooting a Glock 22 and thinking, "Hey this isn't too bad actually." Guess I was being lulled with falsehoods now! In the past, the only reason I haven't liked 40 has been because platform wasn't great. I shot a Beretta once that seemed appropriate for the caliber but I have since learned they don't last long either. These days I stick to 9mm and 45 to keep it simple. 9mm  for training / work / carry and 45 to satisfy my reloading en devours for fun. If I had to use a different caliber for a job I wouldn't cry about it or care that much knowing what I know now.

My blog on tactical health, fitness, and rehabilitation 

It is because men understand the concept of fear. The beast does not. Men take into consideration they may get hurt. The beast does not. The beast only knows attack what is in front of him and does not stop until it stops moving. He only knows that distinctive law of the jungle: eat or be eaten. -Shankle-

I may have missed it somewhere, but is it known yet what platform the FBI is looking to use when/if they go to a 9mm? At first I would assume that they would stay with the Glock, but I would think that S&W would do whatever they could to get the M&P as the FBI issued weapon. 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

ElCId,
If the 9mm is GTG..why authorize the .45 at all? Why not issue one calibre that splits the difference?

Because people come in different shapes and sizes.  If a shooter has larger meat-hooks (such as myself), then the larger frame weapon may be a better choice.  This allows them the option of a G21, M&P45, HK45, etc.  It also allows them to choose a 1911, P220, or similar system if that is a better fit.  I’m not advocating for the agency offering all those choices, but as KevinB suggested – user purchased weapons.  If it were up to me, they would issue a G17 or G19 at the academy.  I include the G19 because they are almost always in street clothes, and I’ve seen smaller stature agents with a G22/17, and they look like they are trying to smuggle a coffee maker in their back pocket. 
I don’t see a logical reason to add a third primary caliber when it doesn’t improve terminal ballistic results, and it comes with a price (muzzle flip, wear & tear).  Anyone who wants a gun that size can choose the same weapon in 9mm.  Easier to shoot (no matter their skill level), more longevity (whether a private purchase or agency weapon), and more rounds in each magazine.  Also, for agencies where LEO’s have to, or choose to buy their own ammo, 9mm is less expensive.


Originally Posted by R.Moran:
What I meant by my comment, was..a lot of guys(not just in these threads, but life in general) bitch about admin types making decisions based on what they feel/think/like, whatever, but if they were "King for a day", they'd turn around and do the same thing, or if they happen to like the decision, no matter how it was arrived at, then it's OK, also.

While I would make changes, and expand the program if I was in charge… I can appreciate the complications of how those decisions affect such a large agency.  There are things that can be done to help them, which include delegating routine weapon maintenance to the field instead of having a logistical choke point at Quantico.  I’d allow agents to purchase a wider variety of weapons for better fit/comfort, but they’d be restricted to 9 or 45.   Sticking with quality manufacturers would still provide a dramatic increase in choices for end users.  Currently they can keep the issued G22 (or G23 depending on when they cycled through the academy), or they can purchase one or two of the following:  G26, G27, G21.  Agents who are, or have been HRT/SWAT can purchase a Springfield 1911 for use on duty (even after leaving the team).  So that’s it.  The typical street agent can buy one of those 3 firearms to use on duty.  And the decision by Glock to stop making the non-SF G21 3rd Gen guns will have consequences.  Only a small unit within the FBI gets to use the G21SF.  Agents cannot buy a 21SF or Gen 4 21 to use on duty.  So with no more regular 3rd gen 21’s in the pipeline, they will have to either expand the program to include SF and/or Gen 4 models, or there will only be two purchase options left for agents (the 26 and 27). 

Originally Posted by R.Moran:
I also agree with Kevin, more long guns, but that most likely won't happen, and 9mm is probably the most logical choice for a large agency...but..

Completely agree!  If I were “king for a day” there would be privately purchased long guns added to the list for agents.  Currently there are none authorized, though some agents have grandfathered weapons.  You can usually tell who they are because the AR’s are 20” or 16” guns with no muzzle device and a fixed stock.  The currently issued RRA guns are junk, but there is no option for an agent to buy a quality rifle for use on duty.


Originally Posted by R.Moran:
-Down loaded .40? I am old enough to remember all the 9mm v .45 article of the 80/90's(see, some body was asking the question)..and I distincly remember the the intro of the .40 being a 180grn JHP at 950fps so it mirrored the popular .45 loads of the day...185's at similiar velocity.

-Wear and tear and gun issues, like G22's...I think thats just it...a gun issue.

-Training..as I've stated, I've been issued a G22 at three facilities now, and everyone of them has had multiple females, with...uh..less then SRT training, and one or two with..the vast majority of them shot it wwell enough to qual, and thats on the older DOE qual.
Most of the poor shooters I see, going to 9mm is not going to help them, nor is going to a 1911 and it's magic trigger either.
Next training day, I am going to ask the training staff guy's what they see. Most just shoot shrug and shoot what's issued. One is an IPSC Grandmaster, he might have a bit of insight on the training thing.

I won’t pretend to have any magic fixes for poor shooters, and I’m not suggesting that a switch to 9mm will improve scores.  I suspect it would help shooters who have trouble with the 40, but I can tell you that’s what they do currently.  A trainee who doesn’t qualify with the G22 is given a G17 and 2 weeks of intensive firearms training. 



Originally Posted by R.Moran:
If your .org is going to spend the saved ammo money, on more ammo and training, good for them. It's been my experience that money saved on the training and op's side is rarely spent there..but moved over to some other BS.

I concur – and I have no illusions that money saved would be put back into the firearms program.  Though as KFAD, I certainly would do so.

Originally Posted by R.Moran:
If I went to work tomorrow and got a G17 with ball ammo, I'd be fine...I'd be fucking estatic if it had a light, 5.5 connector, and vickers controls...I might actually smile if it was an M&P40 though..

I’d be more than fine with a G17.  But if they gave me FMJ ammo, I’d buy my own service ammo to carry.  And back to the KFAD… I’d support use of Vickers mag/slide catches, Grip Force Adapters, custom stippling, Robar grip reductions, etc.

Originally Posted by R.Moran:
Why do people who advocate the 9mm, say they would go to a .45 if they had a capacity limit of 7-10rds?


I’m not advocating for 9mm so much as I am advocating for the disuse of 40S&W.  With regard to capacity, my 45 carries 13+1 with flush fitting magazines.  When I carry a G17/19 I don’t feel any less equipped for the day…  but a few tactically minded coworkers and I have discussed this a few times over the last few years – I don’t think I’d personally be comfortable with an 8 or 9 shot gun as my primary weapon.  In the world of active shooters, and multiple bad guys, I wouldn’t carry a 1911 if it was an option for me.  If a fellow LEO wants to, then I’m okay with that.  But I can’t promise I won’t occasionally pick on him.
Originally Posted by Beat Trash:

 

The FBI has had to "download" their 40 duty rounds, twice, as I have been told. This was to assist with the ability of their weaker shooters with recoil management and qualification scores. I can't help but to think this would have a negative effect on the reliability of the gun with this ammunition. 


 

 

They did that to reduce slide velocity on the Glock 22 so it would function, and function with a light. There may have also been concerns about felt recoil but that is what it took to make the guns work.

I'm not a ballistics expert, weapons expert, bullet expert, LE expert or anything like that.  Nor did I stay at the holiday inn last night.  I do know a little bit about the public admin/MIL decision making process.  A key part of the proccess is identifying and prioritizing evaluation criteria.  This changes project to project and leader to leader.  Guy A might say Factor A is most important, Guy B might say factor Z is.  That will affect the outcome.  GuyA might be right for his situation and guy B might be right for his.  Your situation could be completely different.  Think and act accordingly.
 
PAT, DR ROBERTS and many other people have already given us the answers and we just need to stop the squabbling and listen.  DR ROBERTS has said the Shot Placement is the key factor, and PAT has continuous hit the TRAINING piece.  IMHO use what you have, train hard and put the Bullet in the lethal areas faster than he can do it to you, and if you get shot along the way, DO NOT QUIT, CONTINUE TO KILL THE BAD GUY UNTIL EITHER HE IS DEAD OR YOU ARE. 
 
Feel free to call me an A-hole.  This particular discussion dosen't affect me much as I am stuck with USGI FMJ in 9MM,5.56MM,7.62MM,ETC.  All of which can be down right lethal when used properly. 

 

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

 

 Damn, I forgot about this thread..

 

 ELCid,

 Allowing another calibre, so people with big hands can have a bigger gun? That doesn't make sense to me, and seems a bit like the tail wagging the dog...something I'm quite familiar with..

 If the 9mm is as effective(and I'm not saying it's not) then why even talk about the .45? I'm positive there are better ways to get a gun to fit a bigger hand.

 

 And, again...why do people who advocate the 9mm, claiming it's just as effective..then go on to say, if they were restricted to 10 rounds, they would carry a .45?

 

 How can you be for the 9mm AND the .45...but not the .40? The cartridge...I'm not talking about poorly developed weapons.

 

cd228,

 I did listen, and I chose the .40...in an M&P with a thumb safety...I'm stuck with the G22.

 

 I'd be very careful about being given the answers...at one time we were given the answer's...and they were:

 

 The earth is flat

 The earth is only a few thousand years old

 high velocity bullets

 low velocity bullets

 disco

 etc.

 

FWIW, I don't neseccarily disagree with Doc Roberts, Pat, the FBI or the 9mm for that matter. What I take issue with is a line of reasoning that says the 9mm is ok and the 45 is ok, but the 40 is not..if the 9mm is THE answer, why even consider the .45? but, yet...there it is..

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

To reply in brief:

I also don't see how the larger-end of the hand population would justify an additional caliber. That seems to argue, in example, for something like the HK45 to be made available, were an HK45C the baseline.

It reads more like a by-way to allow the .45 ACP (or other) to ride on in the hypothetical. Having an additional caliber option available for "notch up" members of the organization has only ever made sense to me, when it's in opposition to institutional nonsense as a norm. But if the hypothesis posits an organization at least momentarily with sense; then the need for exceptions is absent.

Jules

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 Damn, I forgot about this thread..

 

 ELCid,

 Allowing another calibre, so people with big hands can have a bigger gun? That doesn't make sense to me, and seems a bit like the tail wagging the dog...something I'm quite familiar with..

 If the 9mm is as effective(and I'm not saying it's not) then why even talk about the .45? I'm positive there are better ways to get a gun to fit a bigger hand.

 

 And, again...why do people who advocate the 9mm, claiming it's just as effective..then go on to say, if they were restricted to 10 rounds, they would carry a .45?

 

 How can you be for the 9mm AND the .45...but not the .40? The cartridge...I'm not talking about poorly developed weapons.

 

cd228,

 I did listen, and I chose the .40...in an M&P with a thumb safety...I'm stuck with the G22.

 

 I'd be very careful about being given the answers...at one time we were given the answer's...and they were:

 

 The earth is flat

 The earth is only a few thousand years old

 high velocity bullets

 low velocity bullets

 disco

 etc.

 

FWIW, I don't neseccarily disagree with Doc Roberts, Pat, the FBI or the 9mm for that matter. What I take issue with is a line of reasoning that says the 9mm is ok and the 45 is ok, but the 40 is not..if the 9mm is THE answer, why even consider the .45? but, yet...there it is..

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

Bob,
I'm not saying you didn't listen nor is my comment aimed at you in any way.  Having met you (once in 2010)  I actually think that you are a good example of my comment of use what you have and train hard.  Your posts clarly demonstrate that you did you your homework with your weapon and ammo selection, and that you don't blindly follow the crowd.  What does irk me is all the resources agencies and some individuals spend chasing the wonder bullet, vs being effective with with what they have or doing the analysis to find out what their real needs are. 

 

As for being given the answers:

Yes, we have been given some really bad ones at time. No arguement.  

We have also been given: 

COL COOPER'S Principles of Personnal Defense (mindset)

Beer

The Constitution

Freedom

Personnal Responcibility

Some of which are timeless

 

I think what I am going to do in the future is write my responce and have it reviewed by an NCO.  I think I overwrite/overthink my posts and it makes them read the opposite of what I mean.

 

     

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

quote:
"And, again...why do people who advocate the 9mm, claiming it's just as effective..then go on to say, if they were restricted to 10 rounds, they would carry a .45?"

I currently carry and advocate 9 mm, yet if forced to only use magazines of 10 rounds or even worse 7 rounds, then I would likely carry a .45 Auto.  This has nothing to do with caliber effectiveness and everything to do with pistol reliability.  It has been my experience that most pistols work best using the magazines they were originally engineered for.  All of my current 9 mm Glock and M&P9 pistols were originally designed to use magazines of greater capacity than 10 rounds, while my .45 Auto 1911 and M&P45 pistols were built to use magazines of 7-10 rounds.  Thus if illogically mandated to use reduced capacity magazines, I'd likely gravitate to a .45 Auto pistol.  The one exception might be if I could use 10 rd mags and chose to go with a G19 cut to take G26 mags or perhaps a reliable 9 mm 1911 like Todd Green ran last year.

 

 Doc,

 Understood, though I think it's a bit backwards.

 I also think, that is not the way a lot of others think, when advocating the 9 & .45 approach, or limited capacity variable.

 

If I were limited, I would seek out something along the lines of a 3913 or Kahr T9..

I'd like to see some manufactures build a mid to fullsize single stack 9/40 pistol.

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 

If I were limited, I would seek out something along the lines of a 3913 or Kahr T9..

I'd like to see some manufactures build a mid to fullsize single stack 9/40 pistol.

 

Bob

I haven't seen one in the wild yet, but the new Walther CCP shows dimensions about the size of the Glock 19. My assumption was they are trying to sell to the market that is limited in capacity. 

 

I also understand what Doc is saying about staying with the caliber and the magazine that the gun was originally design for. After seeing what a 10 rd magazine w/ that funky follower could do to my Glock 19 during the ban years, I couldn't agree more. 

 

If I found myself limited, my old 3913 might come out of retirement. Or if a person had a Sig 225, or even this new Walther CCP. 

 

I think I would go this route if at all possible instead of going to a 45. For the same reasons I use a 9mm now instead of a 45. The older my joints feel, the more inclined I am to stay with my 9mm's. 

 

 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

I wish I had kept my 3913--that is the only gun I regret selling.

 

If I were in a limited capacity situation I'd stay with 9mm if I could find a reliable, ergonomic  pistol that works with my vision--for me that means a pistol with an RDS and preferably a reasonable grip length and a full size rail for an X300U.  I find short grip pistols like the G26 and M&P9c much slower to reload than ones with a longer grip like the G19 and M&P9.  Currently I am also experimenting with 9 mm single stack 1911's w/RDS for this very reason.  The 9 mm Shield would also be an option, although for me it is not quite as "shootable" as a bigger pistol.

I would love to ask why S&W didn't make a single stack series of the M&P. I'd love the heir to the 39xx in that system. 

 

But apparently, like thin-ness and screen size for mobiles, capacity rules for handguns now. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

The Shield is the first M&P series single stack mag guns.

Why make a large single stack (people would complain it should have been a double stack)?

Smith probably feels the large single stack market is adequately addressed by others and the used market.

Making a new gun is a time and money proposition that most likely would have a very limited market.

Not an expert and did not sleep at a Holiday Inn.

Art

Not to underestimate the difficulty, but it seems not insanely difficult to make, even if it had only so big a market. S&W of old, even when profitable lest you think this was misguided, was nice in their matrix of features. Find what you want from their offerings, in both reciprocal and rotary guns.

 

Two options seem to make it easy to make a full size single stack:

  • The full size M&P is a single-feed gun. The top end wouldn't need to change at all, just the frame below the rails, maybe some pins for the trigger and fire control system, if if is practical to narrow it there. 
  • The Shield could simply be extended. Even if just in the frame. 

It feels very S&W to me to do this, when I look at the old metal ones in my safe. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

What about the SIG 239, I found it similar to the 3913 and it's still in production.

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

Originally Posted by cd228:

What about the SIG 239, I found it similar to the 3913 and it's still in production.

This would be my recommendation with the SRT if limited in capacity and 9mm. Excellent pistola.

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

 

 It occurs to me, maybe I got my numbers wrong..

 

 I think it's the 3906 from S&W I was thinking of? 3rd gen version of the M39.

 

 I seem to recall, back in the 80's during the wonder 9 wars, an agency/Dept. issued a double stack 9mm, but allowed officers with smaller hands to carry the single stack version, but had to carry 4 mags instead of 2...I always thought I'd go that route..

 

 I also wish I had bought one of those Sig225/P6's when they were cheap and every where.

 

 How far off the topic are we?

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

The problem for S&W in making a single stack pistol is that it would require yet another new mold for the frame. Likely the dimensions of other internal parts would likewise change and would require new parts as well. Sure a lot of the parts would interchange but I can see from a sheer dollar cost average that S&W likely concluded that the return on their investment was just not going to be enough to justify making a single stack other than the Shield.

 

Wish it wasn't so, but the dollar and the return on the dollar spent, is what gets things made in most instances.

 

 

 

 Scott,

 Understood, I think most of us are just speaking in "what if" terms anyway. IF a limited capacity ban were to be implemented again, nation wide, it might make more sense.

 But for the handfull of states with such BS, it makes more sense to issue low cap mags, or just ignore those states all together.

 

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Since we are way off topic.... here is another blast from the past idea in the single stack 9mm dept. Also comes with a awesome trigger and is lefty friendly, which is important for some of us.

20140412_225747

"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism."         - Thomas Sowell

"A Republic, if you can keep it" - Ben Franklin

 

LOCATION: ....

JOINED:  Feb 2012

     

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Originally Posted by R.Moran:

 

 It occurs to me, maybe I got my numbers wrong..

 

 I think it's the 3906 from S&W I was thinking of? 3rd gen version of the M39.

 

 I seem to recall, back in the 80's during the wonder 9 wars, an agency/Dept. issued a double stack 9mm, but allowed officers with smaller hands to carry the single stack version, but had to carry 4 mags instead of 2...I always thought I'd go that route..

 

 I also wish I had bought one of those Sig225/P6's when they were cheap and every where.

 

 How far off the topic are we?

 

Bob

Bob,

I believe you are referencing the 3903 or 3904 (AluminumLower) and the 3906.  Full size third generation 9mm semi autos.  Made until 1990.  Similar to the Kahr T-1.  The 3913 is the compact model.   

 

Way off topic.

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

3rd Gen model numbers are in a relatively easy to understand system, though a long tedious one: 

  • First two are series/caliber. 
    • x9xx are 9 mm pistols
    • 59xx is full-size, double-column mags
    • 69xx is compact, shorter barrel and magazine, but still double column
    • 39xx is slim. The standard model is the same barrel/butt length of the 59xx, but a single column gun.
  • Third digit is the action method. For the .40, .45 and 10 mm models, whose series/caliber take up both digits (40xx, 45xx, 10xx) this includes size. 
    • 0: standard model (full-size, selective double action with slide-mounted safety/decocker)
    • 1: compact (shorter barrel and butt, same action) 
    • 2: standard with frame-mounted decocker
    • 3: compact with frame-mounted decocker
    • 4: standard with DAO
    • 6: nonstandard barrel length
    • 7: nonstandard barrel length with frame mounted decocker
    • 8: nonstandard barrel length with DAO
  • The fourth digit is the material. I always wanted an 8. Same gun, in plastic. Oh, well.
    • 3: Aluminum frame with stainless steel slide
    • 4: Aluminum frame with carbon steel slide
    • 5: Carbon steel frame and slide
    • 6: Stainless steel frame and slide
    • 7: Stainless steel frame and carbon steel slide

 

My former EDC gun was a 5946. 

  • 59 - 9 mm, full size, double column.
  • DAO
  • Stainless top and bottom

 

The typical, selective double action 9 mm slim gun is the 3906. When compact as well, it's a 3916. Etc. for frame materials. I always wanted a 3983. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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