Having been firearms training coordinator many years ago, I maintain an interest in weapons issues at my former department.  The current coordinator, in love with all things FN, is planning on purchasing short barrel FN rifles witn InForce lights, an Aimpoint optic, and single point slings to replace agency Colts and the personally-owned  rifles.   Any opinions on the quality of FN AR-15's for the law enforcement market?  While I believe some DHS officers use SCAR'sm I don't know of anyone using the FN AR-15.  I checked Sully's AAR's of armorer classes and ITOA rifle competition results and nary an FN was listed.  Opinions?  Thanks and be safe.

Original Post

I’ve heard  nothing but good things about the FN AR as well and am considering them for future agency purchase. 

I would pass on the Inforce lights though. Consistent problems with plastic bodied lights on patrol rifles. 

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The FN Tactical II guns are pretty much a "poor man's" Hodge Defense gun.  Colt's are just fine and get the job done but the Tac II's offer a lot in the way of upgrades for the money.  The Wedge Lock's are probably the best feeling rail in the industry with more rigidity than a Geissele.  The bigger Pinch Lock rails on the FDE could be used as an impact weapon. 

FN CHF barrels have always provided me with about 1.5ish MOA accuracy with Gold Dot or TSX.  My only issue with the FN barrels is that they often drill the gas port a little bigger (but still in industry spec) than I would prefer. 

If I had to roll out today and buy a factory-built gun for around $1300, I'd get one of the Tactical II guns...no doubt.  I'd certainly pick one over a SCAR.

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

If I recall correctly, FN is the only other manufacturer other than Colt that has the TDP. 

But there is something in that agreement that prevents them from selling those rifles in the US. 

I admit that most everything I know about this subject I learned from Dosai or Sully, so maybe they’ll chime in here. 

Thanks, guys. That gives me more confidence in the rifles my former colleagues will be carrying.   My faith in FN was somewhat shaken by the rocky entrance of the FNS-9 to my department.  I thought FN had resolved the problems, but I understand a couple of the pistols have gine down hard in recent months. Hopefully, the rifle transition will be smoother.

The FN rifles are pretty damn decent. 

My last issued M4 from the Army did very well for me reliability / functionality wise and as far as accuracy -with issue M855 ball - the rifle was more accurate than I was. 

The rifle as issued was great. After 2 + years in Afghanistan.. it was still great-- if a little worn.

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

bug bait posted:

How is the DMR II ?

Seems like a good value but from what I've seen out of the 14.5" and 16" barrels (at least 10 now in varying flavors) that the 18" probably isn't going to shoot as tight as a Stainless match barrel.

Personally, with a lot of "testing" (i.e. dicking around at long range and recording my results) I'm beginning to question the necessity of 18" (anything beyond 16") for anything duty-related. 

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

jnc36rcpd posted:

Thanks, guys. That gives me more confidence in the rifles my former colleagues will be carrying.   My faith in FN was somewhat shaken by the rocky entrance of the FNS-9 to my department.  I thought FN had resolved the problems, but I understand a couple of the pistols have gine down hard in recent months. Hopefully, the rifle transition will be smoother.

Someone much wiser told me that FN is your go-to for machine guns...and the smaller their guns got, the more his interest in FN waned.  I don't think its fair to characterize their rifles based on the performance of their pistols. 

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

Not that my opinion matters since I retired (nor did much before that), but I would agree on FN long guns versus pistols,   I confess that at one point I did consider suggesting that we offer to trade the malfunctioning FNS-9's in for Browning High Powers.

Picked up an FN AR15 carbine (M4) for $450. It had a grand total of 30 rds through it and looks brand new. In the process of cloning it with the Knights RAS M2 Aimpoint etc.

Boring reliability and accuracy consistency of my COLT 6920 variants. Too good a deal to pass up anf hey, its an FN.

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arcticlightfighter posted:

Picked up an FN AR15 carbine (M4) for $450. It had a grand total of 30 rds through it and looks brand new. In the process of cloning it with the Knights RAS M2 Aimpoint etc.

Boring reliability and accuracy consistency of my COLT 6920 variants. Too good a deal to pass up anf hey, its an FN.

Where you wearing a ski mask when you made that deal, because you pretty much stole it for that price :-).

FWIW my Issued FN M4A1 seems well put together and accurate enough for GOV work. 

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I want to say FN is taking over the contract for mil rifles. I have nothing to back this up besides the FN rifles I typically are darn near brand new. Only difference I notice at a glance is the FNs have ambi selectors.

I know Yeti praises FN rifles.

By all means they appear to be solid rifles that would exceed in a patrol rifle role.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Got a 20 inch FN rifle set up just like a Marine Corps A4 clone with knights rail and A4RCO.  Gun has run great for the limited number of rounds I have through it. Rifle seems well put together and all the things you normally check on a new rifle were done right.

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pointblank4445 posted:

The FN Tactical II guns are pretty much a "poor man's" Hodge Defense gun.  Colt's are just fine and get the job done but the Tac II's offer a lot in the way of upgrades for the money.  The Wedge Lock's are probably the best feeling rail in the industry with more rigidity than a Geissele.  The bigger Pinch Lock rails on the FDE could be used as an impact weapon. 

FN CHF barrels have always provided me with about 1.5ish MOA accuracy with Gold Dot or TSX.  My only issue with the FN barrels is that they often drill the gas port a little bigger (but still in industry spec) than I would prefer. 

If I had to roll out today and buy a factory-built gun for around $1300, I'd get one of the Tactical II guns...no doubt.  I'd certainly pick one over a SCAR.

Couldn’t agree more on all your points. The FN Tactical II is a fantastic rifle. 

The guy that used to be over the M-16 section of FN lives across the street from me.  He took me and a couple other LFs through the factory.  It was difficult to conceal my freedom boner, what with all the racks of 240s and 249s.  The doorway to the barrel hammer forging room was open - but I wasn't going in there.  It was about 2 million degrees and scary as fuck.  If anyone has specific questions, make me a list and the next time I go over there I'll get as many answers as I can.

Joined: 10/1/09                       Location: Columbia, SC

LiquidTension posted:

The guy that used to be over the M-16 section of FN lives across the street from me.  He took me and a couple other LFs through the factory.  It was difficult to conceal my freedom boner, what with all the racks of 240s and 249s.  The doorway to the barrel hammer forging room was open - but I wasn't going in there.  It was about 2 million degrees and scary as fuck.  If anyone has specific questions, make me a list and the next time I go over there I'll get as many answers as I can.

Ask them how many barrels do I have to put in for to get a special order/spec done?

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

arcticlightfighter posted:

Picked up an FN AR15 carbine (M4) for $450. It had a grand total of 30 rds through it and looks brand new. In the process of cloning it with the Knights RAS M2 Aimpoint etc.

Boring reliability and accuracy consistency of my COLT 6920 variants. Too good a deal to pass up anf hey, its an FN.

173894FD-1B85-4824-B49E-4E67D8EDBA6F

Clone-ish 

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I hate to be “that guy,” but it’s my understanding that the military and civilian FN rifles are made at two different plants (M4s, M16s, and MGs are made in Columbia, SC), and FN is not allowed to build civilian rifles to the TDP. That’s not to say that FN’s civilian rifles aren’t good weapons, just that it’s not really logical to say that because an Army M4 or MG was a good weapon, the FN15 must be good quality too. I don’t have experience with the FN15 line, but it seems like people seek out the FN military rifle components (especially barrels) that make it into the civilian market. Just bought myself a complete FNMI M16A4 upper for Christmas...

3ACR_Scout posted:

I hate to be “that guy,” but it’s my understanding that the military and civilian FN rifles are made at two different plants (M4s, M16s, and MGs are made in Columbia, SC), and FN is not allowed to build civilian rifles to the TDP. That’s not to say that FN’s civilian rifles aren’t good weapons, just that it’s not really logical to say that because an Army M4 or MG was a good weapon, the FN15 must be good quality too. I don’t have experience with the FN15 line, but it seems like people seek out the FN military rifle components (especially barrels) that make it into the civilian market. Just bought myself a complete FNMI M16A4 upper for Christmas...

Thats correct as i understand it, however for $450 it was a great deal and so far, performs on par with my 6920's and upon inspection is well constructed 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

3ACR_Scout posted:

I hate to be “that guy,” but it’s my understanding that the military and civilian FN rifles are made at two different plants (M4s, M16s, and MGs are made in Columbia, SC), and FN is not allowed to build civilian rifles to the TDP. That’s not to say that FN’s civilian rifles aren’t good weapons, just that it’s not really logical to say that because an Army M4 or MG was a good weapon, the FN15 must be good quality too. I don’t have experience with the FN15 line, but it seems like people seek out the FN military rifle components (especially barrels) that make it into the civilian market. Just bought myself a complete FNMI M16A4 upper for Christmas...

Does that simply mean they are not permitted to manufacture a select fire rifle? 

Does their commercial rifle have a 4150 CMV CHF barrel, MPI/HP BCG and staked receiver extension castle nut, etc.?

When life plays a joke on you..............joke back.

WESBnTenn posted:
3ACR_Scout posted:

I hate to be “that guy,” but it’s my understanding that the military and civilian FN rifles are made at two different plants (M4s, M16s, and MGs are made in Columbia, SC), and FN is not allowed to build civilian rifles to the TDP. That’s not to say that FN’s civilian rifles aren’t good weapons, just that it’s not really logical to say that because an Army M4 or MG was a good weapon, the FN15 must be good quality too. I don’t have experience with the FN15 line, but it seems like people seek out the FN military rifle components (especially barrels) that make it into the civilian market. Just bought myself a complete FNMI M16A4 upper for Christmas...

Does that simply mean they are not permitted to manufacture a select fire rifle? 

Does their commercial rifle have a 4150 CMV CHF barrel, MPI/HP BCG and staked receiver extension castle nut, etc.?

Cant speak to the barrel steel, but my FN15 has the other features noted.

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

I'm considering 10.5" FN 15's for our motor unit.  At $983 each, are they too cheap to be true vs. a Colt Commando at $1300ish?   Mk18s came in around $1500.  They're trying to pitch me the Sig MCX, but I'm not really into it (proprietary parts and all).  I'm not as cash strapped as some people, but if I can pitch to the chief guns and accessories for the price of a gun without irons, it's an easy sell.

I bought one of the FN Tactical Rifles when they first came out. I haven’t run it thru any classes but after 1000+ rounds it been 100% reliable and 1.5” at 100 yards. 

I asked an FN representative at the Great American Outdoor Show about the factory where the rifles are built and he was dumbfounded that anyone would think there would be seperate assembly lines for TDP and non-TDP rifles. He said that both lines are built by the same guys using the same parts from the same bins except where F/A concerns arise. 

 

Rick R2 posted:

I bought one of the FN Tactical Rifles when they first came out. I haven’t run it thru any classes but after 1000+ rounds it been 100% reliable and 1.5” at 100 yards. 

I asked an FN representative at the Great American Outdoor Show about the factory where the rifles are built and he was dumbfounded that anyone would think there would be seperate assembly lines for TDP and non-TDP rifles. He said that both lines are built by the same guys using the same parts from the same bins except where F/A concerns arise. 

 

I thought their TDP rifles had to be button broached barrels though, where as everything else is CHF. Though I would consider that to be a nice upgrade over the Uncle Sam rifles. 

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dan187 posted:
Rick R2 posted:

I bought one of the FN Tactical Rifles when they first came out. I haven’t run it thru any classes but after 1000+ rounds it been 100% reliable and 1.5” at 100 yards. 

I asked an FN representative at the Great American Outdoor Show about the factory where the rifles are built and he was dumbfounded that anyone would think there would be seperate assembly lines for TDP and non-TDP rifles. He said that both lines are built by the same guys using the same parts from the same bins except where F/A concerns arise. 

 

I thought their TDP rifles had to be button broached barrels though, where as everything else is CHF. Though I would consider that to be a nice upgrade over the Uncle Sam rifles. 

We discussed that too.  He said that FN tried to get the TDP changed to accept CHF barrels but the .mil wouldn’t go there.  The barrels on the civilian rifles get CHF and the mil-spec get button rifled.  I simplified my discussion above as I talked with him for a half hour or so.

He basically said they are built on the same assembly lines and the parts are the same except where restricted by the NFA or where they exceed the TDP.  He may well have been blowing smoke but his incredulity at the concept of different assembly lines seemed genuine. 

I like my FN better than any Colt I’ve owned but after this years Outdoor Show if I were tasked with buying department carbines again I’d look hard at the Geissele LEO rifles. At $750 they are like buying Mercedes police cruisers at Ford prices. 

The single line seems 1000% reasonable from all I know of manufacturing. The only segregated line I've seen was in an engine plant where the Army would (again!) not allow upgrades. So, it was roped off from the rest of the plant. Not a room, not a separate plant, just an area with a ropeline around it. And signs saying their version of NOFORN etc. but it's not like there were guards. Mostly it was for inventory control. 

There's a better photo I saw once, but this will do. G-Wagen assembly line: 

Mil vehicle being final assembled. Behind it: shiny black civ vehicle. This is just how factories work. 

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Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Anyone have an LE dept sales contact for FN? Looks like we’re considering swapping our 16” rifles over for 11.5” guns over the next couple of years. Already contacted BCM - I like their 12.5”, but they are more expensive than Colt. It will come down to cost vs features/known quality. 

PS -anyone know another manufacturer that makes 12.5” guns (that doesn’t suck)?

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There's always Hodge, but they're pretty hard to come by and super expensive. We just converted to the DDM4V7S for about $1150 a gun by going through Clyde Armory. I have contacted FN about future shorty's, but they don't currently offer SBR options that we are interested in. I was essentially looking for an FN TAC II, but with an 11.5 inch (or even 10.3) barrel, the upgraded furniture and their wedge-lock rail. This was not an option they would produce. I will look through my stuff and see if I can PM you my contact there.

Purely for the gun-porn value, FNH-US has provided some tours to media groups. 

https://www.thetruthaboutguns....ufacturing-facility/

 

https://www.thetruthaboutguns....arolina-barrel-shop/

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

SPDSNYPR posted:

Anyone have an LE dept sales contact for FN? Looks like we’re considering swapping our 16” rifles over for 11.5” guns over the next couple of years. Already contacted BCM - I like their 12.5”, but they are more expensive than Colt. It will come down to cost vs features/known quality. 

PS -anyone know another manufacturer that makes 12.5” guns (that doesn’t suck)?

Reach out to Sons of Liberty Gunworks and Sionics.  Pretty sure that both offer a 12.5 and both are solid LE friendly companies. 

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who trains my arms for battle,

who prepares my hands for war.

 

Psalm 144.1

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