Free body armor program - help I'm conflicted

Not an LEO so take my post with a grain of salt but is it possible to reach out to the non-profit organization and let them know your concerns?

Perhaps with a similarly priced suggestion for gear that would meet your dept’s needs?

IMO I think getting the poly plates would potentially do more long term harm than good, not only because of the possibility of being shot with M855 but once those plates are issued, you’ll have a hell of a time gettting the Dept to upgrade later on.

treehopr posted:

Not an LEO so take my post with a grain of salt but is it possible to reach out to the non-profit organization and let them know your concerns?

Perhaps with a similarly priced suggestion for gear that would meet your dept’s needs?

IMO I think getting the poly plates would potentially do more long term harm than good, not only because of the possibility of being shot with M855 but once those plates are issued, you’ll have a hell of a time gettting the Dept to upgrade later on.

I considered reaching out to them. But I wanted to get some feedback from folks here, regarding my thoughts and whether they were valid, of I should just shut my mouth.

Re: "hell of a time getting the dept to upgrade later. .." 

Bingo. 

It's nice armor but not great armor, considering the best selling and most common rifle in the US right now is the AR carbine.

Poly plates are nice and light.  Great against pistols, maybe even against 30-cal rifles.  I couldn't penetrate one at 750 Meters with a .338 Lapua, but the backface deformation would have killed the wearer.

Will it meet your most likely threat vice your most dangerous?

Our most likely threat,  like most CONUS agencies, is handgun.

But our area has seen at least 4 attacks in our area in less than 2 years (that I can think of this minute), that killed 4 and injured 6 more officers.

So, yes it will defeat the most likely threat, but so will our soft body armor - albeit, with a bit more energy transfer.

But these poly plates may not  defeat our next most likely threat, which is also, potentially, the most dangerous.

Pure poly plates are a no-go in areas where M855 or M855A1 are a likely danger.  

Let the nice folks at the organization that you appreciate their efforts, but they might want to alter their equipment to appropriately protect officers against expected threats...

So you're in a zero-gain position.  Nice gesture, but that's it.  The nice folks feel like they're doing something for the responder-at-risk, but it's not really an effective upgrade.

Doc, I was hoping you'd weigh in. Thanks for confirming my initial impressions.

Considering I can buy m855 off the shelf of Cabelas and Bass Pro, both, right now, within 20 miles; I'd say it's definitely a likely threat.

I'll stick with my HighComm plates. Thanks again. 

Maybe approach the organization, explain how grateful you are for their kindness. Explain the threat concern. If possible, offer to have your association pick up any price difference. That way you don't come off as ungrateful, or asking for more.

CAE5 posted:

If possible, offer to have your association pick up any price difference. That way you don't come off as ungrateful, or asking for more.

I'm thinking I will probably try to reach out to the organization and voice my concerns, if for no other reason, than to ensure they're not just unaware of the problem /solution.

As far as having my agency pick up the tab for the difference in plates, that'd be ... highly unlikely.

Large metro agency, 1600+ sworn ... Even if it was just a few hundred or less per kit, I doubt they'd do it. Neither will most of the cops. We get $900/yr for a uniform/equipment allowance. Our uniforms are provided, that money is for gear, boots, tailoring, etc.

I've preached for the last four years to guys that will listen, that they can get a solid kit for about half of one years' equipment allowance. Those that were motivated and willing - have already done it. Those that weren't - never will. And they're certainly not going to pay out of pocket to upfit their new hotness free gear. 

I'm sticking with my current rig with my (relatively speaking ) heavy plates that stop all known threats. Maybe I'll start saving my pennies and upgrade to a lighter level III plate next year. 

Crash-7 posted:

CAE5 posted:

If possible, offer to have your association pick up any price difference. That way you don't come off as ungrateful, or asking for more.

 

Large metro agency, 1600+ sworn ... Even if it was just a few hundred or less per kit, I doubt they'd do it. Neither will most of the cops. We get $900/yr for a uniform/equipment allowance. Our uniforms are provided, that money is for gear, boots, tailoring, etc.

I've preached for the last four years to guys that will listen, that they can get a solid kit for about half of one years' equipment allowance. Those that were motivated and willing - have already done it. Those that weren't - never will. And they're certainly not going to pay out of pocket to upfit their new hotness free gear. 

 

I was afraid that would be the case. My son is LE. Makes good money, won't spend a dime on better kit for his safety. I end up getting him stuff (plates, IFAC etc) for Christmas. Still trying  to convince him his Keltec P3AT backup/ off duty should be upgraded.

First, I am in complete agreement that this program is a HUGE step in the right direction for everyone. Especially those currently on the streets. I also worked in a highly violent city. In 2011 I had three friends, one of whom was a dear friend and mentor killed in the line of duty in less than 30 days. I was actively involved in both situations. Here is my take.

1. As an enlightened/educated Officer I believe you should reach out directly to this group. Express your sincere gratitude as to their intentions and actions. It is truly remarkable. Offer them your expert evaluation of the equipment provided and your suggested equipment. 

2. (And possibly more important) is this group's recognition and support of equipment upgrades. This was a huge issue in my agency. I was more than willing and capable of footing the bill for upgrades, but my agency would not allow it. Public perception they said. 

Granted my agency was/is grotesquely corrupt and remarkably inadequate. My brother still works at this agency as a SWAT team leader. He is crippled by degenerate unqualified supervisors giving contradictory tactical assessments... and making equipment regulations. What do they care? They dont enter the line of fire or execute their preposterous strategies. 

Whether the improvements are made or not, this is an opportunity to convey support to the obvious necessity for improved training and equipment for this nation's law enforcement professionals. While my circumstances were appalling, I held them accountable and saw my case to a fortuitous conclusion. Looking back, being injured in the line of duty leading to an abrupt and premature end to my Law Enforcement career was a remarkable blessing. You all deserve so much better

An update to this program.  

I crossed paths with the director of this program, and discussed my concerns. As luck would have it, they were already aware of the limitations of the kit they were issuing and had taken measures to seek out new plates.  

They were actually at our range testing/showing off the new plates. I believe it was a company called Angel Armor (maybe their Truth plate system?)  They were  shooting a multi plate system, that, as it was explained to me works like this: 

The ballistic plates are supposedly light enough to be worn full time in conjunction with an officers soft armor, under his uniform for full time rifle protection. And then there's a second set of magnetically oriented /held "up armor" plates that an officer can apply, if he needs additional protection (from m80, m855, m193). 

I don't know anything about this company or their products. They did look at me like I had my pants on my head when I asked how best to utilize this system in a normal external plate carrier configuration (so I have additional mags, medical, etc.) 

So good news is:  the company handing out the free armor seems open to addressing possible deficiencies in thier kit.

The other news is that I have no idea if what they are now handing out is gimmicky stuff or legit vetted equipment.  It's a 4 plate system (2 front, 2 back) that utilizes magnets to orient and secure the up armor plates to the rifle plates.

I'll be the first to admit that I know just enough about armor to know I don't know much. So I don't know if this is an improvement or not. Anyone seen or have any info on this system?

Link to the plates in question: 

https://angelarmor.com/truth/

Plates to me are all or nothing. How do you know the threat is shooting M855 vs M193 or generic 55 gr FMJ? Take a poll? Start a pool? Ask him nicely?

Your plates should stop the common threats in your AO. 

There is theory and reality. Most guys are going to attend patrol level gunfights in what they are wearing when they hit roll call. That is reality.

Barricade suspect with multiple responding and a staging area? Different story. 

I would focus on the lightest plates that will stop common threats in a shape that can be worn all shift. That takes dollars, which are finite.

As ambush type OIS increase, you need to be wearing what will improve the outcome of a common ambush.

Bottom line, if there is a program that will put better armor on your cops, make use of it, even if it is not your dream package.

Any hard armor is better than the awesome stuff that nobody bought because it was too expensive.

Longeye posted:

Plates to me are all or nothing. How do you know the threat is shooting M855 vs M193 or generic 55 gr FMJ? Take a poll? Start a pool? Ask him nicely?

Your plates should stop the common threats in your AO. 

There is theory and reality. Most guys are going to attend patrol level gunfights in what they are wearing when they hit roll call. That is reality.

Barricade suspect with multiple responding and a staging area? Different story. 

I would focus on the lightest plates that will stop common threats in a shape that can be worn all shift. That takes dollars, which are finite.

As ambush type OIS increase, you need to be wearing what will improve the outcome of a common ambush.

Bottom line, if there is a program that will put better armor on your cops, make use of it, even if it is not your dream package.

Any hard armor is better than the awesome stuff that nobody bought because it was too expensive.

 

Longeye, you and I are on the same page. The "light enough to wear all day" plate sounds cool. I haven't gotten a chance to actually try it, to see if it lives up to that hype.  But I certainly like the idea of an "always on" solution, because, as you said, ambush attacks are a real thing. 

We've had several rifle armed engagements in my area in recent years, including one since I first started this post, where two of our guys were hit. 

The "add on" plate issue is exactly the point I made when discussing the plates that didn't address m855 type threats. How do you know if that guy is lobbing 77gr soft point hunting rounds or m855 your direction ? Magic 8Ball? Personally I'd rather just have the piece of mind that my armor is likely going to stop whatever he's throwing at me.

I forsee guys wearing the plates for a bit, and then slowly abandoning them as the novelty wears off. I hope I'm wrong. 

But, the vast vast majority of guys never bought their own, even when provided with funds. My dept gives us $850 per year, in a lump sum, for  equipment purchases. 

I lost count of the number of guys who would bitch that plates and a carrier were too expensive. I'd hand them  a list of decent (not top shelf, but solid and serviceable gear) for a carrier, two good plates, a double AR mag pouch, med pouch and stock, and two ID placards. Total cost: $400, give or take a few bucks. Less than half of ONE years freely given equipment money, and I couldn't get more a handful of motherfuckers to spend some free money on lifesaving gear for themselves. 

Will they wear free gear? Maybe. I hope so.

I guess time will tell. 

I ran the 4SAS7's for a long while; others were opting for III poly rigs for lighter weight and it just wasn't worth it to me. A local SO had Angel out for a demo not long ago, I'll see if I can get/post their evals.

Mwinter posted:

I ran the 4SAS7's for a long while; others were opting for III poly rigs for lighter weight and it just wasn't worth it to me. A local SO had Angel out for a demo not long ago, I'll see if I can get/post their evals.

Thanks. I'd appreciate it. My dept has already gone all in and has issued a few hundred Angel Armor kits. But I haven't been able to find much info out there about their stuff.