Originally Posted by parapyropig:
MOS: Multiple Optic System (?)


Monstrously Oversized Slide  

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                                                                                              "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match

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Joined: 3/20/05 4:14 PM        Location:  North Carolina

I meant in terms of its length.  This MOS is a competition sized gun.

 

LIke I said earlier, I would be all over a 19/23 or 17/22 version, as they are the size that most cops and citizens carry daily.

 

 

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                                                                                              "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match

                                                                                                 for a good blaster at your side."        -Cpt. Han Solo

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Joined: 3/20/05 4:14 PM        Location:  North Carolina

Granted, it's equivalent to 1911 size. I've never had a problem concealing something that big. I just have to keep reminding myself of the mantra "carrying a gun is not comfortable; it's comforting."

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

I'm confident we're just starting to see the Modular Optics System (MOS) models.  I've been told that the price on these is going to be within $100 of a "standard" slide.  Not sure what it costs to have a competent smith mill the slide for your Glock to take an MRDS, but the price differential sounds promising on the factory option.

 

Of course, NO ONE knows if this model has been tested, and is durable, or if Glock is going to use the customer base as unpaid beta testers ala the Gen4 roll out...

 

Luckily, I'm not really interested in dots on handguns (yet), my agency SPECIFICALLY prohibits them as "competition modifications," and, living in NY - the Vampire state where you get sucked dry by taxes - I don't have money for a "play" pistol right now.  That will let me sit back and watch everyone else's experience before I get any deeper...

 

Regards,

 

Kevin

Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle... Psalms 144:1

I just gotta say that the model 40 has me sportng a big rubbery one.

The moment that becomes available I am _so_ making an out of budget purchase. HH6 just doesn't know it yet. It will certainly be a matter of asking for forgiveness rather than permission.

Endeavor to be emulable, not suck, persevere, and, imbue ostrobogulousness. 

I want to like this but I'm wondering as far as the mounting plate sturdiness,

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

Fuckers better not be playin' with my emotions....same with the SIG P220 in 10mm.

 

My 9mm and 10mm Glocks are Gen2 so I don't have a handy frame of reference...is the Gen4 G40 going to have the same dimensions as the SF (short frame) G20? Shooting one-hand/weak-hand with the standard G20 is a bitch for me.

Condition Yellow: For a Longer, Happier Life

I am interested in dougwg's gamer comment as well. Having run the CORE through it's paces with an RMR 06, I don't see much to be concerned about.

 

The CORE has been a carry gun since July for me with no issues. I also used it for a game and it worked great. It returns to general 50 M zero after sight removal, does not have wandering zero, and has taken some knocks without having the sight fall off or lose zero.

 

I have also been around the ATEI mod on few guns and found it to do the same thing in general terms.

I have now handled them and stand by my initial statement.

Both SW and G machine the slide(with inherent tolerances)then make an adapter plate (with inherent tolerances) then mount the MRDS to the adapter plate.

 

When ever you mass produce parts there must be a certain amount of "clearance" built in so that the parts go together.

This clearance will allow the MRDS to shift POA if bumped hard enough.  This is not a major issue with a gamer gun as you would just be shooting steel or paper.

For a "duty, carry and or combat" gun POA shift is, for me, unacceptable.

SW call there gun C.O.R.E. The "C" stands for COMPETITION not combat. I think the lawyers had a little something to do with that.

When I (ATEi) or Mark Housel (L&M Precision) cut a slide for a MRDS we FIT them to be nice and tight to remove the possibility of POA shift.

People will either understand the concept or they will refuse to.
I only offer insight and logic from my 25 years of experience in toolmaking.

 

"A word to the wise is sufficient"
This will be my last post on this subject in this thread.

And I don't think anything else needs to be said to be honest.

I've never considered an optic ready slide like the Mos or CORE to be for serious combat use. Not with lives on the line. With your comp scores and stats on the line, fuck yeah. I'm sure you could carry one of these, and maybe never run into any issues, but how can you know until it happens? You can't.

Just like how you never know if your glock or M&P or whatever is going to go tits up. It can happen, but we buy quality kit to REDUCE that chance, not eliminate it completely. If I'm betting my life or others lives on it, I'm going with quality and picking a glock, m&p, etc. if I'm putting an optic on it, I'm going with one of the reputable custom slide guys.

But what do I know? Not much. That's why I come here to hear it from guys like doug who are SME's.
“First come smiles, then comes lies. Last is gunfire.”
   — Roland Deschain, Gunslinger.

Joined: 4/14/09.  Location: East Coast USA

OK, I'm not arguing because I certainly  don't have the knowledge to, but I guess I don't understand.  If optics on handguns are going to become more commonplace in the future, what is the mass-produced solution to mounting?  We have Aimpoints and Eoturds and other optics on rifles with rails, what should the solution be for a handgun?  My T-1 is on a mount, which is then mounted to the rail.  Tolerance stacking could be an issue, but not within the limits of how well I can shoot the gun.   Like I said, I ain't arguing, just trying to figure it all out.  

*******

Joined 08/26/03   Location:  Southern Oklahoma

Back from the dead:

What's the word on the MOS?  We're transitioning to G19/G17 and the Chief has agreed to purchase MOS slides and suppressor height sights.  If we "yeah, but..." this too much, the option will be removed from the table.

Are these acceptable for LE duty-use?

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What is left when honor is lost?

I am certain there are a number of agencies using them, and likely with decent results.  I have heard great things, and I have heard some horror stories. 

I have no doubt the direct milled options are significatly more stable, more durable, and better suited for "hard duty use".  Is it at all possible for the agency  to look into purchasing slides and contracting them to be direct milled by a third party like ATEI?  I have no doubt they would stand behind their work, and it would provide a significantly more stable, capable, hard use option that in the long term will be better for the longevity of the slide, optic and serviceable firearm as a whole.  The down side is that it precludes the use of any optic except the one it is milled for.  End user customization and preference may require something like the MOS in order to allow for that.

Its good the agency is looking into authorizing them, and even better they are considering paying for them.  I would say that they need to look at potential pitfalls should the MOS option lack stability.  I don't know how the MOS system would hold up in a close quarters ground fighting scenario, or through a hard scuffle with a combative subject, but I would hope that is considered.  However, if the special operations units who are running them using the MOS platform are still getting by, I would hope they would suffice for day to day LE work.  

In all honesty, while still a third party option, the Agency Arms AOS looks like it might be the wave of the future.  While it is new, it appears to be as robust and secure as a direct milled solution, but allows for a wide variety of optical sighting solutions.  

- Milled with the depth of a direct milled option

- Allows for iron sights in front, or rear of the MRDS

- Three (3) bolts to secure it to the slide instead of two

- Attachments offer posts and raised recoil braces for optics and screws

- Works for most commerically available optics (with more planned as they come out)

- Offers a cover plate for those that wouldn't want to adopt MRDS as optics

I will be watching to see how this sytem works out and looking forward to a legitimate torture test to be done, but in concept, it looks to be an amazing solution.  If this is an option, I would say it may be worth looking into.  

Image result for Agency Arms AOS

Image result for Agency Arms AOS

Image result for Agency Arms AOS

LOCATION: El Paso

Those photos suggest an interesting option.  A long mill from the back of the slide, as far forward as you can go.  The optic mounting plate has a raised portion at the rear or in front with a dovetail so you can use a standard height rear sight instead of a special suppressor height sight.  The raised "dovetail base" gives you the suppressor/BUIS height without using a higher sight.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Something’s just not adding up for me in those pics. The first pic looks like very large countersinks that look machined into the body of the optic the third screw up front looks like a countersink as well but much smaller. None of the screws look to be installed far enough for the countersink angles to match up.  Then the pic with the 3 mounts in the guys hand don’t have countersinks, they’re counterbored or spotfaced if you prefer that term.

Now I understand that  these might all be prototypes which could explain the oddities I’m seeing. 

Mojo/Mark
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Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

@TheTick 

While I prefer milled slides (have 1 by ATEI and a 2nd waiting in line there right now), the MOS is a good enough solution, PROVIDED, that you use the Trijicon Accessory kit with the sealing plate and the mounting screws that are specific to the Glock MOS.  This is a must, as is install by someone who knows what they are doing, a periodic maintenance.  Blue Loctite is also a must.  Any of the systems that use bosses, or in which the optic is tightly fitted, you don't need to worry about verifying zero after you change the battery. 

Remember that you'll need to buy taller than typical suppressor height sights.  You really need to order a few sets of varying heights and try them on the MOS so you can find the cowitness that you want your people to use.  Ensure they work with the holster you want your people to use.  Also, you'll need to make the decision of tritium or not.  Most people don't understand that you don't actually need tritium sights.

Some of the above I learned on my own, some from others, and particularly from a member here who gives presentations on RDS use on pistols.  I'll see if I can get him to weigh in on this thread.  He is a legit guy, a wealth of knowledge, and is pretty successful at educating people  and administrators on this topic.  

SFF posted:

@TheTick

  Also, you'll need to make the decision of tritium or not.  Most people don't understand that you don't actually need tritium sights.

 

Thank you for saying that. Tritium sights had some utility in the days before weaponlights were common, and handheld use was poorly understood.

Nowadays? Not so much. Threat PID is more crucial than ever. If one has enough light to PID the threat, they have enough light to see the sights, and enough light to overpower the tritium elements.

TheTick posted:

Back from the dead:

What's the word on the MOS?  We're transitioning to G19/G17 and the Chief has agreed to purchase MOS slides and suppressor height sights.  If we "yeah, but..." this too much, the option will be removed from the table.

Are these acceptable for LE duty-use?

We have been running G35 MOS with RMRs for close to a year now. We've had the normal issues with the Gen1 RMRs but nothing with the mounting system. I floated the idea of milled slides with my agency but it was a non-starter, if we wanted optics this was the only option. I have ATEi, ATOM, and DP guns at the house but I don't have feel like my work gun is a disaster waiting to happen (not yet, anyway). This is a small sample of about 30 on a full time SWAT team.

We did have some lessons learned:

Our (non-team) armorers had never dealt with RMRs or MOS guns before. Apparently they had never dealt with thread locker either.

Get the Trijicon MOS mounting kit with the sealing plate. I told the powers that be that the screws were too short but was condescendingly told how ill-informed I was. Until RMRs started flying down range. Then, instead of fixing it properly, they bought some home depot screws. They strip easy but better than flying sights I guess.

I hear some back and forth of whether the sealing plate is actually needed for milled guns but I we've seen some oil/water intrusion past the gasket with our guns. The RMRs would act wonky until cleaned out (no permanent damage from that so far).  

Vibra-tite is working good so far. See the first point. 

 

Bacon is meat candy

 

Joined: 12/03/03      Location: The American side of the Potomac

SFF posted:

@TheTick 

While I prefer milled slides (have 1 by ATEI and a 2nd waiting in line there right now), the MOS is a good enough solution, PROVIDED, that you use the Trijicon Accessory kit with the sealing plate and the mounting screws that are specific to the Glock MOS.  This is a must, as is install by someone who knows what they are doing, a periodic maintenance.  Blue Loctite is also a must.  Any of the systems that use bosses, or in which the optic is tightly fitted, you don't need to worry about verifying zero after you change the battery. 

Remember that you'll need to buy taller than typical suppressor height sights.  You really need to order a few sets of varying heights and try them on the MOS so you can find the cowitness that you want your people to use.  Ensure they work with the holster you want your people to use.  Also, you'll need to make the decision of tritium or not.  Most people don't understand that you don't actually need tritium sights.

Some of the above I learned on my own, some from others, and particularly from a member here who gives presentations on RDS use on pistols.  I'll see if I can get him to weigh in on this thread.  He is a legit guy, a wealth of knowledge, and is pretty successful at educating people  and administrators on this topic.  

Solid copy on all. So far, the T&E guns have the orange circle/glow dot Ameriglo front post and near blacked out rear sight.  Here’s to hoping they make them in suppressor height (anyone know?).

I’ll have to hit up Safariland about what combinations of MOS/sight height/RMR/pistol light work as the 6360 series RDS holsters are the ones that guys who want RMR will wind up with.

Baby steps...

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

TheTick posted:

Back from the dead:

What's the word on the MOS?  We're transitioning to G19/G17 and the Chief has agreed to purchase MOS slides and suppressor height sights.  If we "yeah, but..." this too much, the option will be removed from the table.

Are these acceptable for LE duty-use?

What about purchasing slides from Unity?

In answer to your question, SFF has this covered. The MOS system will work provided it is installed by someone who understands the system, and has worked through the RDS process a little.

This not a project for a handful of cops to get randomly grabbed for a working party.

TheTick posted:

 

Solid copy on all. So far, the T&E guns have the orange circle/glow dot Ameriglo front post and near blacked out rear sight.  Here’s to hoping they make them in suppressor height (anyone know?).

I’ll have to hit up Safariland about what combinations of MOS/sight height/RMR/pistol light work as the 6360 series RDS holsters are the ones that guys who want RMR will wind up with.

Baby steps...

I’ve seen you shoot a pistol. You need all the help you can get. 😂

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"Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round. Any deviations from this are a bad thing."

 

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God."

I guess what I'm not getting here is the distinction between a pistol RDS system that is mass-produced, not being an acceptable accuracy standard, versus an rifle with a RDS system, that is mass-produced, and considered an acceptable accuracy standard.

If you say that because a mass-produced mounting plate and RDS can be bumped and cause a shift, does that mean every weapon system must be custom milled to achieve acceptable standards?  That seems like an extremely high standard.  

Is a pistol mounted RDS that different from a rifle mounted RDS?  I only ask that because we have shot rifle-mounted RDS's for quite awhile now.  There has been a huge variety of mounts, and sights.  Lots of R&D over the years.  Mass-produced mounts and sights have proven reliable for combat applications.  So what is so different for a pistol that it needs to be custom-fitted in order to be reliable?  

For example, you have a AR-15, with a good mount, and a Micro RDS.   With mass-produced manufacturing tolerances, you can depend on this system to give acceptable accuracy.  Even if dropped or knocked around.  So why wouldn't a Glock 19, a mount, and a RMR be able to achieve the same standard?  

The argument that just because parts are manufactured to production tolerances they are not acceptable to accuracy standards seems suspect to me.  Does that mean if your piece is not custom made and assembled by a some guru, then it's not good enough for duty use?  I understand that some top-tiered units have weapons that are lovingly hand-built by expert smiths, and that's great when you can get it, but is it totally necessary?  

In some people's opinion, the mfg's aren't quite there yet, but that's not to say that they will not be able to mass-produce a slide, mount, and RDS system that is acceptable.  The same as rifle systems.  The notion that only a custom machinist can produce the required accuracy for a pistol-mounted RDS system seems a bit self-serving; I don't think just because something is mass-produced it is inherently inferior and will never work. 

I had my Glock milled by L&M.  And he did a good job.  I am very happy with it.  But if the mfg's come up with a good mass-produced system, then I will consider using that on my next build.  We went through this same process with our rifles; I don't know why we can't do it with our pistols as well.  Unity Tactical has their Atom system.  Agency Arms has the AOS, as mentioned.   Glock will continue to develop their MOS system.  If history is a guide, they will achieve acceptable accuracy, IMHO.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

TheTick posted:

@XelevenC

What holsters/sight height are you running?

We are running 6354DOs. We had to trim the hood on about a third of them to fit. The Safariland rep brought some 6355s to T&E but they are pieces of shit. Hard to draw and REALLY hard to reholster. Had most of the guys try them but reactions were so negative that we decided to stick with the 6354DOs even if we have to modify a few. 

 Sights are 11.5mm high. Front and back are sights are marked AO1 & MH3. They came with the guns but I can't find any info on them. Three white dots with tritium inserts. I would opt for plain or at least no dots if I could go back in time.

 

Bacon is meat candy

 

Joined: 12/03/03      Location: The American side of the Potomac

XelevenC posted:
TheTick posted:

@XelevenC

What holsters/sight height are you running?

We are running 6354DOs. We had to trim the hood on about a third of them to fit. The Safariland rep brought some 6355s to T&E but they are pieces of shit. Hard to draw and REALLY hard to reholster. Had most of the guys try them but reactions were so negative that we decided to stick with the 6354DOs even if we have to modify a few. 

 Sights are 11.5mm high. Front and back are sights are marked AO1 & MH3. They came with the guns but I can't find any info on them. Three white dots with tritium inserts. I would opt for plain or at least no dots if I could go back in time.

I think we’ll wind up trying 6360RDS because some of our guys run 636Xs after opting out of the issued SERPAs. 

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

Follow-up:

If holding zero may be shaky based on the MOS not being as tight due to not being milled specifically for the optic.... should consideration be made for the Deltapoint Pro so the battery can be replaced without removing the battery and risking a shifted zero?

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

For what it is worth my M&P40  CORE experienced no problems with zero shift or ED or premature death. It did exhibit dot flicker, but that was cured by bending the contact tabs to a tighter configuration.

The mounting screws did not loosen up.

My take was that the RMR06 was worth the squeeze on factory gun.


Longeye posted:

For what it is worth my M&P40  CORE experienced no problems with zero shift or ED or premature death. It did exhibit dot flicker, but that was cured by bending the contact tabs to a tighter configuration.

The mounting screws did not loosen up.

My take was that the RMR06 was worth the squeeze on factory gun.


I believe the dot flicker was one of the improvements made with the Gen 2 RMR’s, with a more robust battery compartment/contact system. 

 

 

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"Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round. Any deviations from this are a bad thing."

 

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God."

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