good 2nd line for jungle

Just a few questions Mike. Is it tactical? Will you be reguired to wear armor or is it just to carry gear? If you have to wear armor one suggestion I would have is a Diamondback tactical Plate carrier. Good price and you can get a IIIA cumberbunt as well. If no armor is needed than maybe something on the line of an SDS Irack or something with an open back for additional ventilation.

-------------------------

"I don't need an edge. I fought in two wars...hell I killed people and I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it!" -Red Foreman

quote:
Originally posted by mike g:
it is tactical and no armor for now. am i being realistic or just picky for thinking the rav is not the best choice for jungle use?

thanks for the help, keep it coming.

mike g


I was thinking my Callahan would be too much as well... and was going to go with my MAV with Xharness... but at the same time, I can't carry as much water with it...

The obstacle is the path. --Zen Proverb

when i went before and we were doing only medical work i kept my water in my ruck or my cargo pockets. i had a 100oz camel in my ruck and a 1L platypus in my cargo pocket on my bdus. i also kept a nalgene with gatorade and another platypus (this one 2L) in my ruck. usually the 1L did me fine when i was away from my ruck but i dont know what all we will be needing to carry on second line.

needless to say i carried alot of water and rarely came back with leftovers. i also had a 3-5L dromedary bag but i only used it a few times.

i need to figure something out....


mike g
quote:
Originally posted by mike g:


needless to say i carried alot of water and rarely came back with leftovers. i also had a 3-5L dromedary bag but i only used it a few times.

i need to figure something out....

mike g

I remember you telling me your water load last time at some point, and that's why my gears were turning... I think a lot of it is going to come down to how much time we'll in the field out right, and if we'll have rucks, 3days, or what not...

With my Callahan, I could put... 2, maybe 3, 3 liter CB's on... but I couldn't carry a pack...

The obstacle is the path. --Zen Proverb

Dude, you need to think real hard about this. IMO, you do NOT want to be wearing a lot of kit in the jungle. A RAV would smother me. I would look at LBE. The more open area you can get to breathe, the better off you will be. The Jungle Ain't Neutral despite what Spencer Chapman claims. I didn't even wear the old LBV vest or whatever it was called. Too fookin' hot.

I never heard of anybody wearing armor in true jungle.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
BTW, go the Gen Dis forum and look at the LRRP pics, that will give you some idea of what I'm talking about.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
Dude,
Sneaky is DEAD on with the LBE. What I use for "green" side ops is a LBE set up.. Its alot cooler then a vest and the load out for me is much different then when I am in a urban setting. Either I use a LBT 1195J riflemans H harness
http://www.aggressor-group.com/amenu.htm

or a modular H harness like this

http://www.lightfighter.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=568

that I can set the pockets up the way I need to carry my load. Just what works for me.Hope this helps.

S/F Ian

Forget about leg subloads as well.

I'm sure there are some good newer LBEs than old Aunt Alice out there.

I did know a guy that wore one of those chest mag carriers some. He was always fiddle fucking around with it on patrol.

Pack what you think you will need, then throw half of it out. Carry water and ammo.

Talk to Java if you can find him, he's got some good jungle over there.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
like ssfd said.

forget leg subloads. every vine or branch will grab that subload. its noisy in the bush too. you will expend 2x the energy moving through a heavy growth.

nothing wrong with an lbe set up when it gets real green.

slick up and keep cool.

Celer * Silens * Mortalis

 

I pledge allegiance, to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands -one Nation, under GOD, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

The jungle is NOT your friend, that's for sure. LBE is think is the best choice for jungle ops. Ammo, water and a mosquito net is about all you need.

Watch out for the black palm, poison dart frogs, .50 cal ants, fer-de-lanes, cayman,....god I hated that place!
"Certain Death? Small chance of success? What are we waiting for!"
I've always wondered if anyone used the RAV, CSIRAS or BA in the jungle, the heat and humidity is a killer.

The jungle is not your friend but you have to treat her with respect. Smile

A good water filter is a must.
^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Water is life and death~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You do not own what you cannot defend. [URL=http://www.visitsingapore.com/main.htm][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/ibtrdia/pro.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
thanks for the info guys, really good stuff.

i have spent a small amount of time in the jungle before but it was doing rescue work not tactical. and i dont wear a 2nd line for rescue. hell i dont really keep much on my belt even when doing rescue, its all in my pockets or my pack. but i think i will some sort of 2nd line this time so i can still have a fair amount of gear and drop my ruck. thanks again, and keep it coming.


mike g
Whatever you pick out wear it in the shower a few times.

I agree with KISS.Experiment with different suspension,maybe a mesh yoke would work better than padded,or unpadded suspenders.I like an 'ALICE" rig with unpadded suspenders or a mesh yoke with mesh padding,and a couple of buttpack sized pouches and a couple of SAW sized pouches.I tried a MOLLE belt but there was a small bit of fungus developed between the webbing and cordura,and soaked up too much water.Another reason I like the ALICE style is I can shift the buttpacks about 6" from the rear forward more to the sides easily(without doing alot of strap monkeying).MOst important pick the suspension that works best for you.

I built a complete set of gear from ALICE medium sized pack to canteen pouches with mesh bottoms.Until I got around to it i used extra grommets for all the pouches.Everything I pack is already in some kind of sack or pouch anyway,and quick drainage was on my agenda.

I try to keep the pouches as simple as possible,single layers of cordura with no padding or have padding that is removable,and when doubling fabric(to capture padding for example) use heavy mesh as a layer(s).Every drop of water soaked in your gear adds up to gear you can't carry.
I like to keep my main hydro seperate from my 2nd line,on it's own,or mounted in/on a ruck or patrol pack.I like to rig my patrol pack/hydro to work from a single strap/waisbelt so I can ventilate my back often.ALICE,and now the new MOLLE 3 frames are a must for heavier rucking,IMO.That's another + for a belt rig,as they easily adapt to rucking with a waistbelt.

I try to add lots of 'attachment' points inside the lids of my pouches,even the small ones.I use some light 3/8 webbing or gutted paracord.I make the drawstrings on my sacks alittle longer,sometimes I color code them,or add knots for a low light identifier.I clip my small sacks into these as I stuff them,for example into a sustainment pouch.This lets me 'dump out' or sift thru a larger pouch to get to what I want and still keep attached to those 'subloads' in that compartment.

After your setup passes the shower test take it to your swimming hole and figure out how much flotation you need to keep it bouyant,if it isn't already.Take a swim with your setup,and if you want to get geeky weigh the rig before/ after to see how much water you're carrying.

bulletcatchR

"When this world becomes ours,what we are doing will be right"

Mike G . . .

I spent a couple of years in Panama with the Light Infantry. When I was down there I wore the good ol' LBE. I used an "H" harness attached to a pistol belt. I had a USGI butt pack, two one quart canteens, two mag pouches and a SAW pouch. I could live out of this rig for quite awhile. Never took much more with me than a poncho and a casualty blanket for sleeping and a wet weather parka to wear during stops in patrolling. I personally really liked this set-up for the jungle. It is rather "cool". Not much webbing, mesh, nylon, etc to trap the heat. Something that I started to use later in life is the SOTech 6-point LBE look-a-like harness. This harness distributes the weight alot better than the old "H or Y" harnesses.

Carried my M-5 aid bag in a large ALICE ruck along with at least a two quart and e-tool. BN SOP for water was one gallon at a minimum. Do not wear anything but USGI Jungle boots while in the "Jungla". These boots actually work. Everything else just slips around, suck, and fall apart. Remember to waterproof everything. I always liked freezer zip-lock bags. The USGI waterproof bags for the ALICE ruck work well also. I did use a "see-through" dive bag for extra clothing. That worked really well also. Some people would set up a hooch with the "bug-bar" to keep the bugs off. I just slept in the USGI head net with gloves on and all my buttons buttoned and pants bloused into my boots. The external frame on the ALICE pack is still good for use in the jungle. The frame keeps the ruck off of your back and allows a little ventilation. Remember, no matter what you do, you will get some "prickly heat". Just grin and bear it.

Hope this helps . . .
"Heal With Steel" Buckaroo Medic "Noli nothis permittere te terere" Don't let the bastards wear you down - Some Latin guy
thanks for all the info, excellent stuff.

i did a 2 week rotation in the jungle and the jungle boots worked excellent so those will be a repeat.

Buckaroo do you have any pics or info on that sotech harness. i looked on the website and they dont have any pics and i just cant picture what you are talking about.

thanks,

mike g
i am looking at this setup so that i can have some adjustment in load out. http://www.lightfighter.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=481

anyone have experience with this setup?

and how do i attach the shoulder straps to the belt and get the most air flow, i dont need a hydration carrier on the back as i want it as open as possible to move air between my back and my pack. is this still too much, i figure with a modular setup i can use the pouches i already have and set it up the way i want it.


thanks

mike g
Here's my top tips, based on time in the jungle in Belize.

- PLCE webbing (LBE in US-speak) is the way forward. Any type of vest is going to be way too hot to wear. We carried a minimum of 2 x 1 litre canteens on our belt kit, basic brew kit and emergency rations, basic first aid kit and FFDs, loopline and karabiner, weapon cleaning kit and of course ammo.

- Golock ('Tree-Beater') Worn under your belt kit and tied to you (1st line survival item).

- Millbank Bag - Basic water filter, but works!

- Good quality jungle boots. Personally I rate the US GI boot.

- British issue lightweight hammock. It has sleeves on each side to use as an A-frame bed.

- Ortlieb Bags. For river crossings and keeping your dry kit dry!

- Good wet/dry drills! Only take 2 sets of rig, one for wearing in the jungle (wet) and one for sleeping in (dry).

- Mechanical Pace Counter. Tape to Rifle foregrip, mega handy for keeping pace.
Spent 2 years in Panama, 11B. LBE will keep you cooler. Lightweight BDU's, we wore our old OD Jungle shirts till they bleached white, cause they were cooler. A bottle of mentholated rubbing alcohol works well for prickly heat.
A machete and small file to sharpen it is nice.
Sliver Gripper tweezers to remove what gets stuck in you. A clean/dry T shirt to sleep in while your BDU shirt (hopefully) dries. A swiss army knife or multi tool is needed. Think lightweight. I can't see wearing anything other than old LBE because of heat load and rubbing the skin raw . Enough rambling on, PM me if you need anything.

Dave

"Keep that cheap, wail'n slut quiet!" A.J. Maggott

looks like i will be going with the LBE as my resistance and attempts to go with cooler gear will only wind up dragging me down. can anyone suggest any good pouch makers. particularly ones with grommets in the bottom of there pouches.

i want to put atleast 2 liters maybe more on second line. as well as some mag holders and a pistol holster since a drop leg will probably eat my thigh after it gets wet. any suggestions on holsters?

thanks again for all the info guys,

mike g
LBT makes canteen pouches with mesh bottoms that attach with ALICE clips, no lining on the inside so theyre a little lighter than issue pouches. BHI also makes canteen pouches like this but they attach with their velcro strap system. I seem to remember seeing some SOE mag pouches with mesh bottoms.

"A pirate is not the sort of a man who generally cares to pay his bills...and after a time the work of endeavoring to collect debts from pirates was given up."

          -Frank R. Stockton

thanks buckaroomedic,

is there anyway to arrange the gear on the web belt so that it doesnt interfere with a pack belt. or should i just go without the pack belt. i would really prefer to use the pack belt to keep most of the weight on my hips and not my shoulders.

thanks for all the help,

mike g
mike g, one of the reasons I despise LBE is because it doesn't allow you to use a rucksack with a padded waistbelt. Pouches on the back of the belt will prevent the rucksack from sitting where it's designed to, and the LBE belt will be in the way of the pack belt. There are two ways as I see it to wear a pack with LBE. 1.) Sling your LBE on top of your ruck while you have to carry the ruck. The downside here is that when you make contact you have to drop your ruck and then shrug back on your LBE. Probably not the best thing to do when bullets are flying your way. 2.) Have your pack sit on the pouches that are on the back of your LBE belt. This actually isn't that bad if you're pack weighs somewhere between 30-40lbs, but anything more and it's going to get uncomfortable as time goes on. Just my 2cents on LBE with pack use.
quote:
mike g, one of the reasons I despise LBE is because it doesn't allow you to use a rucksack with a padded waistbelt. Pouches on the back of the belt will prevent the rucksack from sitting where it's designed to, and the LBE belt will be in the way of the pack belt. There are two ways as I see it to wear a pack with LBE. 1.) Sling your LBE on top of your ruck while you have to carry the ruck. The downside here is that when you make contact you have to drop your ruck and then shrug back on your LBE. Probably not the best thing to do when bullets are flying your way. 2.) Have your pack sit on the pouches that are on the back of your LBE belt. This actually isn't that bad if you're pack weighs somewhere between 30-40lbs, but anything more and it's going to get uncomfortable as time goes on. Just my 2cents on LBE with pack use.


tacsit,
I have a solution that might work for some folks.A picture paints a thousand words I will work on uploading some first thing manana.

bulletcatchR

"When this world becomes ours,what we are doing will be right"

tacsit and bullet catcher,

thanks for your info. i didnt know if i limited the gear on my lbe to a canteen on either side at around 5 and 8 oclock and put nothing farther back than that. that still doesnt help with the pack belt issue but i hoped that would make the pack ride a little better than if i had a butt pack on my lbe.


mike g
If you worried about your LBE interfering with your ruck just wear it loose and low. The large ALICE pack has a big ole kidney pad you have to drop your LBE low enough not to interfere with. Tens of thousands of GI's have road marched hundreds of thousands of miles with that combo.

I wore it loose and low and just added a sternum strap. Worked fine for IMT'ing.

_____________________ "The badge of rank an officer wears on his coat is really a symbol of servitude to his men." GEN Maxwell Taylor

quote:
Originally posted by tacsit:
mike g, one of the reasons I despise LBE is because it doesn't allow you to use a rucksack with a padded waistbelt. Pouches on the back of the belt will prevent the rucksack from sitting where it's designed to, and the LBE belt will be in the way of the pack belt. There are two ways as I see it to wear a pack with LBE. 1.) Sling your LBE on top of your ruck while you have to carry the ruck. The downside here is that when you make contact you have to drop your ruck and then shrug back on your LBE. Probably not the best thing to do when bullets are flying your way. 2.) Have your pack sit on the pouches that are on the back of your LBE belt. This actually isn't that bad if you're pack weighs somewhere between 30-40lbs, but anything more and it's going to get uncomfortable as time goes on. Just my 2cents on LBE with pack use.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. What kind of slack assed shit is wearing your LBE on top of your ruck? That's something a Navy or alphabet agency female would do.

You ever been in the jungle? That's what I thought. Put yourself at ease and stow the bad advice.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
I believe he meant the [url=http://www.eagleindustries.com/images/prodimages/p_CMS_RRS_V.JPG]MOLLE STYLE RHODESIAN RECON VEST (CMS-RRS-V) and the BHI copy, the [url=http://www.lightfighter.com/ProductImages/Blackhawk/STRIKE/STRIKE-crv-web.jpg]STRIKE Commando Recon Vest (avail from Lightfighter).
quote:
Originally posted by basicload:
LBE, worn HIGH on the chest and un-buckled... This will allow you to use a Ruck hip belt if needed.

Chi-com AK chest rig if you want SUPER lite...... not 1000D cordura, I'm talking $.75 cotton duck, Piece of shit but weighs NOTHING

If you need to go MOLLE compatable, go with the Eagle or BHI LBE (Strike).

Shit-can EVERYTHING, I don't even carry a pistol in the jungle.

No Armor, Helmet, etc. You can bring NODs, but you can't move at night so consider only bringing a skull crusher. Keep the NODs small like the PVS-14's.

If you try patrolling with them on your face, they will Fog in 2 seconds and you will be shit out of luck.

Bring your rubber eye pieces, the jungle is one of the few places where the floppies get close enough to to see the "Green Glow" of the Nods on your face.

100% cotton Uniform, with all double fabric removed, (knees, ass, etc.)

full auto rifle, NO 3rd burst......

I'm sure that I can think of more, but its been a while since I had to play those silly games.....

Excellent advice. I wouldn't carry the freakin' pistol either. I haven't used NODs in a while, so I don't know if there have been any advances (shutup Tank Boy), but the ones we had were useless, the heat and humidity fogged them up.

You can move at night, but it's stupid, so they will probably try to make you do it. The NODs take away depth, so you will fall more if you try to use them.

You need good gloves.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς

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