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TUAEITS posted:

Hey guys been following what yall have been putting up and just got back from the field. Been through several iterations of the belt kit. Starting with the beltminus V2, Moving on to ponying up the cash for the mayflower. Ended up using the beltminus belt with the mayflower harness and mayflower pouches. Only thing I had to add on then was an ifak. Started with a chinook med one and switched to the ATS litelok because it held a tourniquet more securely and fit the belt kit size profile a bit better. Only thing I havent found a great thing for was the radio pouch. I have the blue force gear one but I dont like the way it carries the radio. Might try out one from AWS inc but not sure yet. Belt kit

Made some small changes along the way. Bungees on the mag pouches and a few other things. Love the ATS ifak though, able to buckle down a tourniquet so it's outside the tear off pouch but still very secure. Whistle got ripped off a while ago, So adding a whistle and wanted to find a way to secure my esee-4 to my left shoulder. I think the mayflower mag pouches could be improved if a plastic strip was added to the mouth of the pouch just to hold it open, Tac reloads would be substantially faster if that was done. Biggest thing I see to this setup it how the pouches and harness interface. Between the buttpack, nalgene pouches, and mag pouches it can weigh a fair amount. But with the harness directly suspending the weight it makes it very comfortable. Havent had an issue with rucking on it, actually very comfortable with both the 1606 frame and mystery ranch frame. Molle 2 ruck is really long though and sits on the buttpack. 

Holds a total of 6 mags, 2 nalgene's with titanium cup, 1 ifak, 1 mbitr, and normal small things I keep on my second line. CLP, Spare set of batteries, small tube of bug spray, camo, and headlamp. Gives me more than enough room more sustainment for a day, snivel, camo for the surv site or anything else I decide is need. Two deficiences I have though are the ability to hold any other mags than m4 mags (not really an issue for me right now), and carrying smoke grenades. Was thinking of putting them on the space in front but right now I can get directly in the prone with the way it is and don't really want to change that. Possibly somewhere on the shoulder I could find space for one. 

Diz I like those tuck tab pouches, You think you would be able to sew a version just like the mayflower's but with that securing method?

Also first time posting pictures so apologize if it's all fuckered.

OK, I wonder if you could save a bit of room on the belt: with the waterbottle pouches, thread the rearwards strap to the side of the bumpack & the forward one normally to the belt.?

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While looking at my Alice LBE and fiddling with putting together a more modern set up I've noticed that the attachment points on the Alice pouches are more inboard and those on the MOLLE pouches are pushed out to the sides. On my ALICE kit this enabled me to shove the attachment points up against one another, getting rid of any extra space between the pouches when worn (curved around a waist)- this also prevents the kit from laying flat anymore as the pouches are too close together to do so when loaded. This enabled me to fit my butt pack, a gallon of water, 4 mag pouches and compass pouch on my 34" waist. Does that make sense? If not I'll go take some photos to better illustrate.

OK went out for some land nav and patrolling practice with a couple of guys getting ready for Ranger School.  Good training.  We all took 1K turns as point, compass man, pace, and tail gunner.   Awesome time and Shoobe's pace beads worked great.

Tried out prototype belt kit and it was pretty comfortable.  Notice mag pouches are set back to hips so you can take a knee.  Also 3 sustainment pouches around back, and Yote pack with radio pouch on the side.  About 30 lbs all up.  Belt and suspenders worked well; pouches rode good.  These were all modified Jay Jay's molle kit; the next one will be sewn down.

Notice how multicam works well in Carolina woodlands in winter.  Ghillie head rag, flight gloves, and Lowa boots.

My quads are fried today.  Humping up and down those fingers and draws.  But I hung with the youngsters.

I'll get some more pics later.           

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I'll get more pics up when I can.  The trick I think is to cut the belt pads like the Brits do.  (You know I keep saying Brits but it's really all Commonwealth troops, although that sounds rather clunky.  Help me out here.  Other English-speakers, Anglo-Saxons, Evil White Colonists.)  By cutting the pad short, it forces you to mount the pouches where they need to be, rather than be tempted to spread things out around front.

I gotta say, running a 7" belt pad is lots more comfy than a std padded belt.  By a lot.  That was prolly the best rig I've ever run.  I'm having a hard time thinking about what it felt like because I didn't think about it at all on patrol.  I was worried the wider belts would feel more like a girdle but that wasn't the case.  Zero restriction of movement.

On a related note, the current ACU's have shit chest pockets so I ran the compass in a small pouch on the belt, just in front of the mag pouches, with no issues.  Gonna have to mod these jackets one day.  

On another related note, gonna throw the DG-3 on next time and do the deed.     

Diz posted:

I'll get more pics up when I can.  The trick I think is to cut the belt pads like the Brits do.  (You know I keep saying Brits but it's really all Commonwealth troops, although that sounds rather clunky.  Help me out here.  Other English-speakers, Anglo-Saxons, Evil White Colonists.)  By cutting the pad short, it forces you to mount the pouches where they need to be, rather than be tempted to spread things out around front.

I gotta say, running a 7" belt pad is lots more comfy than a std padded belt.  By a lot.  That was prolly the best rig I've ever run.  I'm having a hard time thinking about what it felt like because I didn't think about it at all on patrol.  I was worried the wider belts would feel more like a girdle but that wasn't the case.  Zero restriction of movement.

On a related note, the current ACU's have shit chest pockets so I ran the compass in a small pouch on the belt, just in front of the mag pouches, with no issues.  Gonna have to mod these jackets one day.  

On another related note, gonna throw the DG-3 on next time and do the deed.     

...theCanucks, Aussies and Kiwis just call the Brits... Poms

Just completed a set of Mayflower/Velocity mag pouches, with tuck tab mods.  Came out well and will be testing shortly.  Also put tuck tabs on three Jay Jays sustainments, so it's a real kit bash now.

Working on another set of me own 3-mag pouches with tabs.  Gonna test out all this trash with 3", 5", and 8" belts.  Also have M/V, Jay Jays, and me own style shoulder straps to go with them.  

I have to say up front that the newer, lighter stuff just seems "flimsy" to me, although that is purely a first impression.  Time will tell.    

As an update, the belts are actually 4", 6", and 8".  I now have sets of V/M, Jay Jay's, and my own pouch designs, along with 3 different yokes as well.  All this will be combined into 3 complete rigs for testing.  I basically have light weight, medium weight, and heavy weight rigs.  In the context of 2d line for the jungle I will be testing them out for hot and wet conditions.  Will have pics soon.     

I think we discussed some third line stuff in this thread earlier.  I ran across this sale on ebay. Dude wants stupid money for it, but it is interesting.  Ive never seen a cover like this for the lightweight ruck.  The TC for the ruck only shows an over white cover.  Supposed to be a jungle cover for the lightweight ruck.  uses snap fasteners to secure to the top of the frame, then a drawstring around the pack.  four internal pockets with Velcro closures and grommets on each side for 1910 equipment hangers.  Pretty slick for its time.  I would think something like that, semi rigid on the sides, would create a pretty decent sized pack with not a lot to catch on vines and whatnot.  

 

 

 

jungle ruck coverjungle ruck cover 3jungle ruck cover 5

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Gunner posted:

I think we discussed some third line stuff in this thread earlier.  I ran across this sale on ebay. Dude wants stupid money for it, but it is interesting.  Ive never seen a cover like this for the lightweight ruck. 

...

Supposed to be a jungle cover for the lightweight ruck.  uses snap fasteners 

...

jungle ruck cover

I used a poncho with a longish bungee wrapped around the frame.  Not perfect but it worked well enough.  

 

The water proof bags and trash bags as liners really helped  keep my gear dry in some pretty wet places.

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@Community Member posted:

Pretty good shot of multicam and multicam tropic in use.  It seems like something in between the two would be better for tropic/jungle use.

D98D4FBA-7E01-4E21-8196-80E6E29D61D6from the mystery ranch instagram page

 A little more greens, and a bit less brown tones, maybe.
What caught my eye was immediately below the lead mans left hand looks like either a guy hunkered down in a ghilly suit or Cousin It from the Addams family.  

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@Community Member posted:

 A little more greens, and a bit less brown tones, maybe.

While normal Multicam is generally does what it was intended to do, be a jack of all trades, it's a bit too light for most green environments, and tropic seems almost too dark. We almost need something in between, like a Multicam Temperate. Of course, perhaps that just defeats the whole purpose of Multicam to begin with...

Once upon a time, in a place far away, where US forces fought in tropical lowlands, coastal jungles, and mountainous triple canopy forests for nearly two decades (1957-1975)... the same problem was encountered. And solved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERDL_pattern

ERDL Jungle Fatigues.

They worked back then. They worked for another decade or so after the SEA conflicts (when they were standard issue in my Cold War units). I wore them in everything from Appalachian forests, to Florida swamps, to PNW rain forests, to Piedmont oak/pine woods, to European woodlands, to alpine forests, to western US high chaparral, to Panamanian jungles.

They flat out worked. Against the MK I eyeball. Against NVDs. The Green Dominant Lowland pattern was especially effective in triple canopy jungle.

Replacement BDU Woodland was just a variation on this theme (larger blob patterns and a bit color adjustment with addition of black).

We've erroneously come to believe that all modern patterns MUST be pixelated and computer generated. That's bullshit. Especially in jungle environments, where the long distance advantages of pixelization are fairly well negated by close detection/engagement ranges . 

We look at modern day PPT presentations that claim "X" % of detection when comparing candidate patterns, instead of relying on the cynical eyes of experienced end users. Back in 2005, any 11B E-4 could have told you that the UCP (ACU) pattern sucked for most vegetated environments. But we adopted it anyway, 'cause... Science. 

I have seen people look like they were employing a Klingon Cloaking Device while wearing ERDL Lowland (Green Dominant) against daylight green undergrowth and jungle under-canopy. ERDL also worked well against Gen III passive night vision.

The later BDU woodland pattern worked even better against NVDs, especially inside conifer or deciduous temperate forest. This because of the black negative space added to the pattern. But it was less effective in daylight triple canopy jungle or high treeline forest than the original ERDL. Too dark of an overall pattern for most of those environments.

We should quit looking for Uber-Digital solutions and simply upgrade the old uniform and its two proven patterns. The guys who developed ERDL (way back in 1948), put just as much sweat and effort into that viable solution as anyone developing current patterns today. They weren't idiots, and the pattern was proven efficient during a lengthy jungle war.

We also need to quit looking for one-size-fits all solutions when it comes to camouflage patterns. Absent a not yet achievable chameleon ability bestowed by future wonder fabrics, there are no universal patterns. God bless their pointy Jar Heads, but the Marines had it right when they went with both woodland and arid variations of the same pattern... while Big Army  adopted grey pajamas for fighting in rock quarries... and few other places.

ERDL (both color patterns) worked for me (and everyone around me) across a decade plus of full time wear while assigned to 2/75th Rangers and 10th/11th SF Groups. I never heard anyone voice a single complaint about the effectiveness of ERDL. We found them to work rather well in a wide variety of environments. But they excelled in the jungle domain they were created for.

Naturally, if you wore a set in extremely faded condition, the pattern suffered. You became vulnerable to detection/compromise. The same as with any other pattern of camouflage. At a certain point, overly faded uniforms need to be DXed. Regardless of chosen pattern.

Over the decades, I had occasion to wear lots of patterns in thick stuff, to include actual-by-god jungle. OD, ERDL (both), BDUs (all generations), UCP, OCP, etc. Even occasional foreign patterns (like East German Raindrop or UK MOD). My favorite by far was the ERDL, mainly in Green Dominant (during growing season). ERDL Brown Dominant during shoulder seasons or where the terrain was more appropriate for that color.

OCP (Multicam) is an obviously good choice for much of the world's environments, but it ain't an optimal jungle pattern. ERDL was. We should field both. 

Just my opinion, and not empirical evidence of pattern superiority. But I did use the stuff successfully for a long time and against every type of background terrain and vegetation.  So I tend to believe my own lyin' eyes...

(Addendum: It shouldn't take billions of dollars and years of hand wringing to reinvent the old Green Jungle Boot either. Still a better jungle boot than any modern example I've seen proffered. I wore those for about 25 years across all climates as well. A few minor updates and tweaks, and "Bob's Your Uncle"... jungle boot problem solved.) 

 

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Recently read a paper that Natick labs did on the history of the BDU.  It went into the ERDL history a bit.

green dominant ERDL was invented in 1948,  like Astronomy mentioned, was designed by John H Hopkins (who also came up with the six color desert pattern).  Originally called US Army 1948 pattern. That pattern had some criticism as being to bright.  I suspect the criticism was from users that werent in heavy jungle or had badly faded uniforms.  In response Natick developed the brown dominant ERDL camo in 1968.  I believe this was officially called NLABS 1 camo.  The later RDF camo was developed in 1979 for some Army and Marine units.  It looks like this was officially called NLABS 2.  The biggest difference between the RDF camo and brown dominant ERDL is that the two ERDL camo patterns tend to have blurry edges around the shapes where in the RDF camo has pretty distinct shapes.  But, I believe I have seen a couple examples of RDF with blurred edges.  

The BDU pattern was designed more for temperate climates so the shapes in the pattern were enlarged to work better at longer ranges, rather than the smaller shapes used in the ERDLs that were designed to be effective at closer ranges.  The shape and colors of the woodland camo used in the BDU were chosen so that at approximately 300m it would blur together and appear to be OG 107.  

I’ve always liked the ERDL patterns.  They seem pretty ideal for jungle environments.  And as much as I like tiger patterns, the ERDLs are probably more versatile.  If I ever spend any time in the jungle and am in a unit that will tolerate non standard uniforms I would definately use them.  Coincidentally, Moore Militaria just started carrying repro green dominant ERDL jungle fatigues.  They looks pretty close to the original pattern.

multicam tropic looks cool but is very dark, I would imagine it almost looks black when wet.  I remember a few pages back, Hile? mentioned that it they were om under canopy but stood out badly any time you got into any sunlight.

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