quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude:
quote:
Originally posted by tacsit:
mike g, one of the reasons I despise LBE is because it doesn't allow you to use a rucksack with a padded waistbelt. Pouches on the back of the belt will prevent the rucksack from sitting where it's designed to, and the LBE belt will be in the way of the pack belt. There are two ways as I see it to wear a pack with LBE. 1.) Sling your LBE on top of your ruck while you have to carry the ruck. The downside here is that when you make contact you have to drop your ruck and then shrug back on your LBE. Probably not the best thing to do when bullets are flying your way. 2.) Have your pack sit on the pouches that are on the back of your LBE belt. This actually isn't that bad if you're pack weighs somewhere between 30-40lbs, but anything more and it's going to get uncomfortable as time goes on. Just my 2cents on LBE with pack use.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. What kind of slack assed shit is wearing your LBE on top of your ruck? That's something a Navy or alphabet agency female would do.

You ever been in the jungle? That's what I thought. Put yourself at ease and stow the bad advice.

But Sneaky, he's a former Pvt who was in the Royal Regiment of Canada (a RESERVE light infantry unit) for a little over a year who never deployed. That makes him an expert! Roll Eyes
No jungle around here but here is my woods set-up. It's an S.O. Tech Patrol vest, LC2 belt, ect. Side Pouches are TT and a Rollypoly.
I take the canteens off and swap the location of the right side pouch with the knife and it works good for vehicle ops. I run a CB with it with this also.

"Get your mind right, have the right tools at hand and win the fight"

USAF 1987-2008 

Sneaky, I wasn't telling him that's how he should wear his ruck with his LBE, I was said "there are two ways that I see it," which means, "there are two ways I'm aware of;" those were the two ways that I knew of to wear a ruck with LBE. My apologies if I wasn't clear I was just trying to share some of my knowledge on possible pack/LBE use with the guy. I know jack about jungle warfare, hence I restricted my comments to actual wear of a rucksack with LBE, something I do have some experience with. For the record, wearing the LBE on top of your ruck is not something I've ever done. It was however a method I heard used by at least one CF unit in the mid 90s. Assbags, did I say I was an expert at jungle warfare for pete's sake? I didn't mention the jungle once in my post. Ease off ace.
From my limited experience BL is right on with the wear of the LBE. Loose and low only causes problems. It is always hanging off of you and getting caught. You cant move quickly or quietly in any enviroment with underbrush wearing gear thats flapping around. After a few ventures into the woods I changed my set up to where its up HIGH on my chest and I can wear the belt on my ALICE pack if needed. (The peice of crap wont release without using special tools on most occasions, so it usually just stays clipped around the back). This set up allowed me the best combination of movement and comfortability. It wasnt even *too* bad in the Arizona heat.

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

Mike G . . .

1+ on what both Ol'sarge and Basicload stated. I initially wore my LBE "low and slow" with the ruck kidney pad riding on top of my butt pack. The kidney belt would ride right about umbilical level. Later I switch my LBE around and wore it at umbilical level with the ruck's kidney belt on my hips. This set-up seemed to work better (for me). I would recommend getting a better kidney belt though. I had the TT kidney belt and shoulder straps on my TT mod'ed lg ruck (pre Kifaru days). Loved the shoulder straps, didn't like the kidney belt that much. It was too big and bulky. A buddy of mine had the kidney belt that Ranger Joe's sells. It seemed more in line with what a kidney belt should be. After thinking about it, I believe my Kifaru Navigator or Maruaduer would work out pretty well in the jungle. They are both low profile enough to not get hung-up on "wait-a-minute" vines and the way they ride on the hips keeps quite a bit of room between your back and the pack for air circulation. Just my opionion, haven't had the chance to try it out in the jungle, yet.

Basicload - I would have to disagree with you on movement at night in the jungle. The Bn I was with in Panama moved almost exclusively at night. The pointman would wear NODs and the rest of the element would move Ranger File at very close intervals so as not to break contact with the guy in front of you. The Cat-eyes on the helmet band only last about 20 minutes, after that your night vision has adapted and one can see "OK". Mind you, we didn't move very fast, but we did move all night.

This post is really starting to bring back some memories.

Take care all . . .
"Heal With Steel" Buckaroo Medic "Noli nothis permittere te terere" Don't let the bastards wear you down - Some Latin guy
I'll agree with Buckaroomedic, you can move at night in the jungle. Of course we had 2 years to practice, but it can be done. You need to move slow and have a good recon. Often the moon/star light can help. NVG's up front and follow the cat eyes in front of you.

Dave

"Keep that cheap, wail'n slut quiet!" A.J. Maggott

i have humped a ruck with the LBE setup for several years, just not in the jungle atmosphere. I can say that I wear mine about navel level. When I put on my ruck, I just "hike up" the LBE and secure the kidney belt on around my waist. This allows the LBE to rest on the kidney belt of my ruck, and transfers the weight of the LBE from my shoulders to my hips. While not really high tech or high speed, it works pretty well for me when rucking combat loaded.
quote:
Originally posted by BooneGA:
(The peice of crap wont release without using special tools on most occasions, so it usually just stays clipped around the back).


Sorry to butt in here, but you need to DX that defective belt and get one that works. If you use your belt at all, and you should some, when you need to get that pack off your pack, you need to do it NOW. You may not have streams to cross or anything like that in Arizona, but I'd hate to hear of a soldier drowning or getting hung up on something and getting injured because of defective equipment. Don't make Murphy's job easier.

Snake sends Nemo me impune lacessit "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil ... you know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." Lieutenant General James Mattis, USMC, former First Marine Division CO

quote:
Originally posted by X-ray Dave:
I'll agree with Buckaroomedic, you can move at night in the jungle. Of course we had 2 years to practice, but it can be done. You need to move slow and have a good recon. Often the moon/star light can help. NVG's up front and follow the cat eyes in front of you.

Dave


If you could see the moon or stars, you weren't in real jungle. Razz
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
You beat me to it, SSFD. Man, following cat eyes brings back memories.

In the jungle only take soft gear, it don't hurt much when those damn monkeys throw it back at you after stealing it and then finding out they can't eat it.

Garden State

I don't think a very large ruck would be in your best interest either if your going to do patrols. The larger the ruck the more noise it makes and the more chances of getting tangled up in the brush depending on types of area your in. If your in the rain forest expect to be wet and watch out for "Jungle Rot" in the groin area and feet, wear wounds from your gear rubbing, cuts from vegetation, insect bites, and leeches, OH YEAH, THOSE FREAKING MONKEYS I HATE SO MUCH.

A good holster would be nylon, on your LBE belt with a flap to keep vines from stealing your pistol.

Garden State

quote:
Originally posted by Snake RAH:
quote:
Originally posted by BooneGA:
(The peice of crap wont release without using special tools on most occasions, so it usually just stays clipped around the back).


Sorry to butt in here, but you need to DX that defective belt and get one that works. If you use your belt at all, and you should some, when you need to get that pack off your pack, you need to do it NOW. You may not have streams to cross or anything like that in Arizona, but I'd hate to hear of a soldier drowning or getting hung up on something and getting injured because of defective equipment. Don't make Murphy's job easier.


Its long gone now, I ended up using it for rest when shooting once and it burnt up pretty well. Im still deciding if I want another large one, or go with a medium (I have a tendancy to overpack...) The one I was issued for use this summer in NC is hardly serviceable.

Back on topic...If you are ditching armor, helmet, etc, why keep the pistol? I cant see it being worth its weight/hassle.

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

quote:
Originally posted by BooneGA:
It wasnt even *too* bad in the Arizona heat.


What heat?

TimW Phoenix "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic'. We should stand up and say, we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration" Hillary Clinton

quote:
Originally posted by TimW:
quote:
Originally posted by BooneGA:
It wasnt even *too* bad in the Arizona heat.


What heat?


Im actually in GA right now...but I think I saw 109 on the news the other day???

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

Good thread, brings back the mammeries. All this new go-fast gucci gear these guys wear these days works fine in vehicle-mounted patrolling, but get up into some triple canopy and it's a whole new ballgame. If you wear any kind of LBV on your chest, you're gonna be dying out there. Your back is already covered up, you need the ventilation on your chest. Build a simple belt kit with suspenders that works with your ruck. I hand-sewed type 7 webbing loops onto all my issue pouches, Brit style, so they rode lower, even with the top of the belt, so they would clear the ruck pad better (hand-sewing awl and waxed cord @ para-gear.com). A lot of good commercial pouches are already rigged for low mount like that. Definately get an after-market ruck harness and belt pad for the ALICE, too.



"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

This was a later rig that was machine-sewn but it gives you the basic idea.




"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Actually saw that for the first time when we cross-trained with the Brits. I liked the way their pouches rode low on their belt kits. Cleared their rucks much better than ours. Also liked their totally enclosed canteen pouches which I later shamelessly copied. Keeps all the gunk off your canteen cap. They usually ran 2-3 separate pouches for E&E gear, versus our buttpack, but I still prefer the buttpack. Suspenders have come a long way. I like a simple, lightly padded design, that doesn't interfere with your ruck harness. A nice, dry jungle night shirt is also a must have. Along with a can of cope, re-moisterized with Jack Black, for when you have the watch. Ahhh, life's simple pleasures.

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

PLCE webbing is ideal for jungle ops, IMHO the designers thought a great deal about jungle ops when designing the kit.

The six-point yoke has a minimum surface area of nylon/mesh, therefore heat build-up is reduced. All the pouches have a tough heavy-duty waterproof interior, together with grommets for water drainage. The pouches hold up well in the jungle and rotting of material and thread is negligable. All the pouches have lids, with one-handed closures; keeping crap out and making opening/closing easier.

A typical set-up for jungle ops would be L/H ammo pouch (6 x Mags), R/H ammo pouch (grens) and 3-4 water bottle/utility pouches. UK SOPs for jungle ops are a minimum of 2 x water bottles on the belt kit. Some lads replace the R/H ammo pouch with a utility pouch which enables the carriage of GPMG link, aide memoires, etc.

As previously mentioned, the pouches usually ride flush to the top of the belt and our issue bergen usually rides nicely on the top of the belt kit, depending on what back length of bergen you have (long/short).

We also get issued a belt pad which fits inside the webbing to reduce webbing burns/rash.

If anyone can give me a heads up on how to post a photo, I'll post a couple of pictures of my PLCE kit, setup for jungle ops.
I'm going to be hanging out in the triple canopy as well... I was thinking I'd maybe make it with my two piece MAV... but it seems more and more not... looks like my old BHI H-Harness might have a life after all...

The obstacle is the path. --Zen Proverb

Rockape, maybe I can put the photos up. Check your PM.

Gary

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A difficult child at best, fit neither for the cloth nor the pen, too dangerous to be unleashed upon society and too horrible to let live, but yet too brilliant and unique to destroy; He was eventually given over to The Ft. Benning School For Boys to receive the proper education and be brought up right -as both a savior and destroyer of man.

Sneaky:
Somehow I knew you would appreciate a good "old school" belt kit.

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Rockape's pictures:

PLCE Webbing (left to right) - PLCE Ammo Pouch, PLCE Water Bottle Pouch, 2 x Arktis Utility Pouches, PLCE Water Bottle Pouch, PLCE Ammo Pouch. Attached is PLCE Yoke.



PLCE Belt Kit with issue hip protection pad.









Snake sends Nemo me impune lacessit "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil ... you know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." Lieutenant General James Mattis, USMC, former First Marine Division CO

Diz and Rockape, Damn fine kit! Brings back allot of memories, I couldnt imagine tromping threw NTA OKI in anything other than the old issue 782 alice gear. I took a walk the other day in the woods with my callahan just to get an idea, mind you I'm not in the jungle just back woods TN, and it was hot as hell! I couldnt even imagine doing it in the Hellcat portion. Diz damn nice mods man, never took you for a stich bitch Wink.

Semper Fi
quote:
Originally posted by Pesty0311:
Diz damn nice mods man, never took you for a stich bitch Wink.

Semper Fi


Now that is the funniest thing I have read in a long time, for so many reasons I cannot even begin to describe.

Soooo....Diz, do you own your own sewing machine? Big Grin

No offense Pesty, anyone who has done time in the NTA is good in my book, but DAMN BizNitch!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jon, OPT

www.optactical.com

 

"We can take 300 million casualties and still fight and win. What other nation can do that?" -Mao Tse Tung-

 

"I do account for nonrational actors in my worldview. And when they threaten violence against global order, I say: Kill them." -Thomas P.M. Barnett

 

"If at first you don`t succeed, failure may be your thing." -Warren Miller

Aaahhh..... NTA. I haven't thought about that place in a while. Talk about 4 wonderful weeks of pure, clean-cut fun. NOT!!! It sucked the entire time I was there, almost 10 yrs ago exactly to the month. The only good thing was that on the last day we were supposed to run the confidence course, or whatever the hell it was called, but it was cancelled because a typhoon started to head our direction.

Below is an old picture I found of the rappel "tower" at NTA. I was the only guy in my company that got kicked off the "tower" because I didn't bound when I rappelled down it, I just zipped on down without a care in the world.

editted to add:

I used a regular h-harness at NTA set-up very similarly to what Diz and Rockape with 2x mag pouches, canteen, buttpack, canteen, and a SAW pouch. It worked a lot better than the LBV that others were issued.
I know you know, but it reads so funny that I had to say something, you know?

When I saw it originally, your smiley wasn't there...then I went and read it again and it was...it took the value away from what my original impression was, oh well.

It wasn't foot in mouth, it was just a slow connection on my part, or was it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jon, OPT

www.optactical.com

 

"We can take 300 million casualties and still fight and win. What other nation can do that?" -Mao Tse Tung-

 

"I do account for nonrational actors in my worldview. And when they threaten violence against global order, I say: Kill them." -Thomas P.M. Barnett

 

"If at first you don`t succeed, failure may be your thing." -Warren Miller

ASSBAGS, the confidence course rocked!! I turned 21 while in the NTA 3/16/95...seems like yesterday! guys in my unit duck taped me to my cot and took me out into the monsoon, yeah we had it full blown storm on our hands, in fact they thought about pulling us out because a Habu farm was destroyed and 100's of the things were realeased a few miles north of NTA. The last leg of the course was straight up and was muddy as hell it took us almost an hour to get the guy on the stretcher up it. Ahh the memories!!

Fatty, it was a case of foot in mouth on my part, its all good tho.

Semper Fi
quote:
Originally posted by Pesty0311:
ASSBAGS, the confidence course rocked!! I turned 21 while in the NTA 3/16/95...seems like yesterday! guys in my unit duck taped me to my cot and took me out into the monsoon, yeah we had it full blown storm on our hands, in fact they thought about pulling us out because a Habu farm was destroyed and 100's of the things were realeased a few miles north of NTA. The last leg of the course was straight up and was muddy as hell it took us almost an hour to get the guy on the stretcher up it. Ahh the memories!!

Fatty, it was a case of foot in mouth on my part, its all good tho.

Semper Fi

Damn, we went thru it right after you guys. I was there in June, '95. I rememeber the instructors telling us about the Habu farm that got destroyed. They even told us there were a few cobras loose in NTA, too. I do know that 2 guys in my company got bit by Habu's while up there, and my team's SAW gunner fell down a small cliff while doing a night patrol and ended breaking his hand again, (it just healed from being broken a few months earlier.) I saw enough Habu and enough boars to last me a lifetime in NTA. It sucked, but it was still a blast and some really good training at the same time.

We wanted to run the course, but they wouldn't let us, so we ended up leaving that morning instead of that evening/night, whenever it was we would have finished the course.
No jungle experience here, but I thought I'd comment on the Hellcat and its possible suitability. I say possible, because I'm just comparing the layout of my Hellcat MkIII with Rockape's kit and its similar. I have a hydration pack/padded shoulder strap setup and consequently, it sits a bit lower than the usual RACK/Hellcat. It isn't up around the chest, its around the midriff. Body coverage is essentially identical to the PLCE, so I wouldn't necessarily put it out of contention.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Tell you what, if my HSGI SWP held 3 mags instead of two in each pouch, I would seriously consider running it on a rigger belt with suspenders for the jungle. Water would be an issue, but workable I think.
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
I know you guys are pulling my johnson, but yeah, I got machines.

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

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