good 2nd line for jungle

This is the next gen gear; I don't think you will be disappointed.  The weight saving is significant, especially when wet.  

I can't believe I used to love the old cotton duck webbing; oh well, you don't know what you don't know.  

If I can get hands on some of this light weight material, gonna make some things, including some belt kit, with proper tuck tabs!

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

As an update, after much discussion (and some humps) my bud decided on going with a modified chest rig/vest kind of set up for the radios.  He is currently trying out Jay Jay's patrol yoke, in conjunction with the belt kit.  He will run at least one 152, map, compass, NB, and "AM"  on the vest.

He is on hurricane relief duty right now with this set up.  It allows him to drop combat kit, for humanitarian missions, and still have comms and his "office".  Such are the realities of the modern soldier.

His ruck currently sits at approx. 40 lbs, with another 20lbs of belt kit.  So 60 lbs all up, for a soldier just under 200 lbs.

For me, the ruck is approx. 35 lbs, with 15 lbs of belt kit.  50 lbs all up for a "G" at 160.

As we have been discussing here, I think these are very good figures of merit.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

sky potato posted:

So I broke today and ordered the Mayflower Jungle harness and 2 5.56 mag pouches just now. Interested to see how the Mayflower pouches stack up to the Tyr pouches. And also how the harness compares to the JayJays yoke.

 

I’m going to stick the Mayflower pouches onto a Tyr Gunfighter riggers style MOLLE belt, so about as lightweight as I can get the overall kit.

Have you looked into the BFG Belt-Minus at all for this?  I briefly had their padded V-2, and think it would be perfect in that regard compared to the Gunfighter.  The BFG is a little lighter and neither the belt nor padding will hold any water.  The only benefit to the Gunfighter is that it's lower profile in height.  It's one piece of kit I kinda wish I hadn't sold.  If I find another out there in the wild, I'll probably scoop it up.  Looks like all the padded Belt Minuses are sold out, but there may be some out there....and I wonder what BFG might be replacing it with.

"If you can't do something smart, do something right" -Jayne Cobb

 

Joined: 2010.                 Location: NOVA HELL

For entertainment purposes.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I follow most of those involved with that project on social media.  I keep scouring pics trying to find a good view of the pack Mike (GarandThumb) mentioned. Plus dude is funny and does good reviews on his YouTube channel. 

Because...........Malinois 

This is a good start.  Just add an extra canteen to replace the e-tool.

Yes, it's canvas, I think maybe the first edition of ALICE.  The Soldiers of Hal Moore's battalion fought with similar equipment so I know it can be done.

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

 

When violence is the local language, be fluent.

Couple generations before ALICE, but it worked.  One of these days I’ll weigh my old rig like that dry vs. wet.  Would be interesting how much more water that canvas retains as opposed to nylon.

"A pirate is not the sort of a man who generally cares to pay his bills...and after a time the work of endeavoring to collect debts from pirates was given up."

          -Frank R. Stockton

Gunner posted:

Couple generations before ALICE, but it worked.  One of these days I’ll weigh my old rig like that dry vs. wet.  Would be interesting how much more water that canvas retains as opposed to nylon.

A lot.  

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

 

When violence is the local language, be fluent.

I have those pouches set up for my M1 rifle. I wonder why they dropped the straps from the pouches in later ammo pouches? I read instructions somewhere that your H suspender front snap was supposed to be angled back toward the load. With the straps from the ammo pouches you end up with a six point suspender like the Brits belt kit.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

Here is a 1944 copy of FM 72-20, Jungle Warfare  -

http://6thcorpscombatengineers <DOT> com/docs/FieldManualsWWII/FM%2072-20%20(%20Jungle%20Warfare%20).pdf

The older manuals are very good at recognizing the limits of the Mark 1 human body and they have a lot of good tips, for instance, wearing gloves when you sleep in the field to prevent mosquito bites.

 

 

 

....

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

 

When violence is the local language, be fluent.

All this is FWIW as it's just broke-dick poseur me: 

I have used a lot of rigs. ALICE, the SDS RACK, commie chest rigs, belt lines. A few years ago, I took that info, sewed my own, and it had some fun features but it got worn out so at the beginning of 2016, I started looking to replace it. Had some wish list ideas, etc. but I stumbled across a MACHS (a Hellcat Mk2 with extra pouches) for a steal, hardly used at all. I thought it fit well, and still do, so snagged it and got it configured the way I like it, and have used it for a bit, happily.

Before I get to my main point: it’s not terrible for our discussion here. I quite like how it has (for example) wide, doubled, but unpadded shoulder straps. I’ve been rained on in it, and it's often 90-100% humidity down in the mossy hollows of MO and OK where we do our stuff, and it is fine there. Doesn't get uncomfortable or noticeably heavier from the rain. Hell of a lot better than many other rigs I have had. It IS old school bombproof tech, so is heavy, and has too many bits. I have since then updated to have tubes, and I think that makes it even nicer, by dropping about 6 oz of weight (that velcro/snap panel is a huge item) and making it stiffer. More on this in a minute.

 

But doing this means I also needed a 7.62 rig. Both M43 and x51. So, I bought a TT 2 piece MAV (and 10 speeds, etc). Fight Light series, thinking that it would be notably lighter and high tech. I wore it a bit, but the last time was to FOP3. Where I decided for real it was not what I wanted from it. Fundamentally, it was not stable. That stiffness I get out of the tubed Hellcat? That is what I mean. It buckled under some conditions, and that makes it not always comfy, and things are not always where I want them.

 

Also, not as light as I hoped for. Slightly lighter versions of the same old school construction methods. So on the way home I stopped at Brad’s and bugged him for a hell of a long time, trying on various things, mostly the Mayflower Jungle… bits. Didn’t put together a whole thing, but did try on the belt/harness setup.

Now, don’t get me wrong: It’s nice. So nice that to people who like ALICE and belt setups I suggest it, first off (before the price turns them off). But I have settled very well where I like to wear my rig (high) and know how belts work for me. They don’t much. The pouch bottoms stab me, and tilt, and snag on my ruck belt, and so on. I want a platform tall enough to mount the pouches TO, not hang them FROM. If that makes sense. But I liked the modern funny laminate materials.

(I did buy a PC from Brad, because man did everyone slick in those at FOP make my IBA seem bulky and silly. So, getting used to that now, and I was guilty for using all his time and going “nawww” to everything he offered.)

 

So when I got home I went looking. And being a cheapskate, was thrilled to find BFG apparently discontinuing some of their -Minus stuff (still have inventory on the Last Call page, FWIW). So, it’s like half price. That is totally me. So, got a SplitMinus and a few pouches. And over the past few weeks I have put together… this:

I can do a million photos instead, but this seemed to offer the chance to see every angle, but you tell me if not clear enough etc. 

Yeah, it's not perfect yet, dammit. Just noticed the back straps need tightening, as I said you need friends around to help fit your stuff! For the record, it is (my left to right):

  • 10-speed 7.62. Gray for some reason I cannot recall, but once assembled I hit it with some Rapco Khaki paint. Works great. Carries anything at all. Can dump them when transporting the rig, so I added elastic cord, simply woven through the back of the rig cutouts and molle webbing. Knotting at each tension needed, so no noise from cordlocs. 
  • Folding pouch from some UK pack. Roll top and velcro. Using it for pens, lightsticks, squinchers, etc. 
  • SAW pouch. Also UK issue. On my other rig I have SpecOps X6, and ideally I'll get some Helium Whisper SAW pouches but at $80 a pop, not eager to do that. Left one here has velcro sewn to the top to hold the patch indicating that it has a (home-sewn) IFAK pullout. 
  • Mayflower Jungle Buttpack (empty here and the straps stupidly hanging down) woven through the back 1" belt of the rig, and the D rings attach via the little velcro tab things to...
  • ... a First Spear hydro pouch. Accidentally got the small one, but in the end, perfect as I get a little stowage below, and less weight in water above. A lot of times I wear an assault pack it's just to have backup bottled water and rain gear. Buttpack can handle those duties I think, lightening me up. 
  • Another SAW pouch, empty. This is my Mission Specific Stuff pouch. Day optics, LRF, thermal, batteries, food, small water bottles, gloves, etc. It varies, but is a great solution for that, been using for years. Where the idea of the SAW sized pullout came from.
  • Bang pouch. I have none of those, but a few mini-smokes, and if those dry up will turn it into something else. Previously was on the shoulder so this is probably better use of the space.  
  • And back around to the matching 10-speed 7.62

Not visible is: Nothing. A big benefit of these is that there is no inside pockets, etc. I have never been able to use these properly. They are too small, only work with flat things, never have loops to keep pens and lightsticks upright, etc. So good riddance.

I also did mod it to have tubes. The laminate they are using is NOT hypalon, so hypalon or vinyl glue techniques do not work. The tubes are in vinyl (either Tempur door scraps or FMTV cargo bed scraps… I cannot recall which) I tried some good glues and techniques and it was meh. Holding, but not trustworthy. So ended up sewing, and it sews like gangbusters.

The cordura (?) finish layer is nice for glare and noise, but it does soak up water pretty good. There’s not much of it, so it doesn’t get super heavy, but if was doing jungle or maritime stuff full time, I’d give the whole rig a waterproofing soak (stupidly, I just spent the weekend doing that to a bunch of other stuff of mine, forgot to do this…)

The laminate is very shape-supporting. It doesn’t compress and fold up and squish like fabrics. Putting the repair tubes into the slots I glued/sewed was a bear. Very doesn’t work like fabric/webbing loops. Even more so, when you just wear it around; the SR-attached front was nothing to write home about, but with the tubes, the whole mountable panel is rock solid. The rig is now not hanging off me, but as I have always liked (and gotten my home-sewn ones to do especially) is practically bolted to me. Nothing wobbles, and everything is where I expect it to be every time I reach down.

Speaking of which, I was initially hesitant to order the split minus as I was sad about the end of the real estate. I thought: I want a tall belt so can use it all. But that’s not true. Laying stuff out I realized some simple geometry: If my diameter changes (and it does, clothes and armor…) then the rig has to change sizes. Where does it change? Well, for belts it’s the front. And that means your pouches move further away from the centerline when you get bigger.

So while I don’t have as much room around back for e.g. canteens, I do know where my pens, lightsticks, and magazines are all the time, no matter what I wear. Find the centerline, sweep out and there it is, where it always is. Do wish it had ONE more column around the back. Not sure I'd use it, but just to be more laminate instead of webbing bits, might be fun. 

Only thing I do not love so far is the sides can twist while picking it up, and putting it on. I think maybe a 6 point system would make that not happen. And yeah, I am considering simply sewing something to add it on. When I see TRAJAN AURELIUS’s photo of the old school belt line, that extra strap looks… extra. Like I could just rig it in there to the shoulder strap ladders and go three columns back on the front/side panels. Seems to make sense, so, I might play with that soon here. 

 

ETA: I weighed it of course. 13.34# with water, IFAK, all the other doodads (pens, strobe) and 4 mags.  

The fully configured Hellcat, with only 4 mags (to be equivalent; it's a 6 mag rig) is just under 18#. Not a world of difference, but in general, I'll drop 4.6 # if I can. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Good R&D.    Dropping 4.6lbs is huge.  That's totally worth it.  After 10 miles that's like 9.2 lbs.  And so on.  

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Minor updates. Partly based on walking around in it. I have done some hikes with this, mostly when it's rainy, just toss a jacket over and do it in the dark so no one notices me bulging oddly. Rainy today so may do another tonight. 

1) I stuck some thick scrap bungee cord (cut off of the TT mini bungees to make the right size years ago) through the webbing below the shoulder pads on the vertical supports, and tied it into Inboard - the spare loop for the upper SR I removed and Outboard, the top of the innermost Natick loop for the last pouch. Effect is  that I have an 8-point suspension, instead of a 4 point. 

I am not sure it rides better, because there already was no sag; combination of the tall laminate platform, and the tubes I think. But it has done a brilliant job of keeping it straight and not twisting or tangling when I split the front to access stuff or lay down, or even just pick it up off the ground to put it on. 

2) Mounted the second copy of that weird Eagle compass pouch GUNNER got me so I can have the same on both rigs. Hope I don't offend anyone modding old strange stuff, but stitch ripped out the ALICE bits, and sewed on a strip of 2" onewrap across the back. Hook inward, it grabs the shoulder strap just enough, is soft and flexible. 

I have been on a couple hikes with this using the ALICE hooks and they gave enough grab to keep it up, didn't stab me much, so I am confident this will work well.

3) I am way too indecisive and too much of a hobbyist to guarantee I will stick to one config enough to sew it all down. So it's all gonna stay modular. But one thing I have noticed is that MALICE clips on the couple pouches with them on it are stabbing me. 

Now, I like MALICE clips, have had no issues before for the 16+ years I have had some. But with the no-profile platform, they sure are right against you, so now stab me. Badly. The HSGI whatever-they-are competing plastic clips are better, but not good

Somehow, had a random flash of smartness while messing around the shop with this the other week, and did this with some scrap onewrap: 

Weave the center as usual, hook side to the body. Continue straight through the pouch side to the end, come up through the slot, wrap back around and tuckback under itself. Velrco grabs itself at the ends, but also grabs the pouch webbing a bit along the whole length. 

Works brilliantly. I would tend to suggest the 3/4", instead of the 1" I mostly used, but it works great, at least for the BFG platform laser cut setup. I would sorta like to find the super-thin plant-tie style onewrap, in strips, to cut weight and bulk even more. If it keeps making me happy, may remove all the Natick snaps, and do this for all pouches. 

Is this new? I can find no mention of it, so did I manage to invent a new way to attach pouches? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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Fuck dude I believe we're gonna call that the shoobe strap. 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Too bad it's just a OneWrap trick so I can't sell it, become a billionaire off it  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Meanwhile, I've been testing out different shoulder strap assemblies, for wear with ruck straps.  I'm working with "H" harness, "X" harness, and plain cross straps.  I am leaning towards an "X" panel at this point (like the classic MAV), with extend  arms that are swept outboard, kinda in a "S" curve, which mimics the ruck strap, and connects to the belt pad at the hip sides without bending.  

Trying to integrate two sets of straps to lay one on top of the other can be difficult.  Sure it's no big deal, standing in front of a mirror and re-arranging everything as you throw it on, but out in the field, at night, when you are tired, it is easy to get straps out of place, or twisted, so that it is very uncomfortable.  I even managed to get the waist pad stuck into the cross straps once while shucking it off (I wonder if that's why the Brits made their harnesses with mesh all the way down and short back straps).

Two things going on here (well three but we've already covered one).  First is the way they overlay in the shoulder and neck area.  Putting a heavy ruck on can move the belt straps out of position, either too far inboard or outboard.  You have to pull them back inboard, sorta like jump rigging.  It looks like a continuous   back panel of some sort works best here, to help hold the straps in position, while the ruck straps slide over them.  Then on the other end, if the strap drops straight down, it works OK if it connects to the belt at roughly the "appendix" position, which is where traditionally the US mag pouches have been placed.  If, on the other hand, you rig Brit style, and move the mag pouches back to your hips, the strap has to make a slight turn to get to it.   So that's why I put a slight "S" curve in them.  It doesn't have to bend quite as much as a shoulder strap, but a slight bend does help.  You may find you want a sternum strap as well.  I would suggest rigging it below the ruck sternum strap (if used) so you can tell them apart.  

If this all sounds like niggly bullshit, I have an example of when it can really bite you in the butt.  Last time we rucked, I managed to get a belt strap folded over, right at the pec, when I laid the ruck strap over it.  No big deal until a few miles later, when it starting aching like a sumbitch.  That little knot made a pressure point and I got the point.  So yeah taking an extra second to make sure the straps are laid down right might be a good idea.  And having designs that tend to work well together instead of fighting each other would probably help as well.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Ok as an update, went through a shit-load of prototypes last week.  The "X" panel did not work out.  Am now back to a modified "H" pattern; sorta a cross between the Brit style and ours.  Getting really close.  I think the key may be to mimic the ruck harness of whatever you're running.  You want the ruck straps to superimpose over the belt straps as close as possible.  Pics soon.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

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