Originally Posted by ClosetCaseNerd:

God damn... I can not shoot a 1.8'' group @ 25 yards UNSUPPORTED without an element of luck! gawddamn!

 

Using a T&E VP9 that I am reviewing for an article, I managed some 3" & 4" five shot groups unsupported at 25 yards.  I'm sure someone who shoots better could manage tighter groups.

I contacted Bravo Concealment, and they said that they will have a sample within a month, and will post it on their website when they have them ready...

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

Originally Posted by Default.mp3:
Originally Posted by Longeye:

Mine is in .40 Auto, so it doesn't directly compare, but it is decent. Enough so that I sent it off to get MultiCamed, and RMR'd.

Do you know if the RMR will need an adapter plate, or if it'll be like the M&P/Glock attachments, where only milling is needed? The P30 needs an adapter plate for the RMR, which is why I'm waiting for reviews on the Deltapoint Pro, but if the VP9 can mount an RMR without having to fuck around with an adapter, well, that decides a lot of things for me.

From looking at the pictures this thing appears to be very similar to a P30/P2000 so it will require an adapter for an RMR.

 

I find that there isn't much difference internally between the various HK slides I've put RMR's on.  The differences are mostly in the profile of the slide and the location of the rear sight dovetail. Some have enough meat behind the dovetail for a new dovetail for a rear sight, others require me to fill the factory dovetail to give enough material.

 

To directly mount any optic will definitely require the rear dovetail to be filled as the slide can't be milled to the depth of the dovetail due to the safety plunger.  This requires that the slide be refinished after the filler is brazed in place.

 

In the case of the adapter, the adapter makes up the length of the safety system with a milled spring capture pocket on the underside.

 

Someone called me today about this model so I may get to handle one directly ao I'll know for certain what can / can't be done.

 

 

================================================

FFL Type 01

"I have learned that wisdom can be as simple as substituting facts for assumptions."

Originally Posted by Mark Housel:
Originally Posted by Default.mp3:
Originally Posted by Longeye:
Mine is in .40 Auto, so it doesn't directly compare, but it is decent. Enough so that I sent it off to get MultiCamed, and RMR'd.
Do you know if the RMR will need an adapter plate, or if it'll be like the M&P/Glock attachments, where only milling is needed? The P30 needs an adapter plate for the RMR, which is why I'm waiting for reviews on the Deltapoint Pro, but if the VP9 can mount an RMR without having to fuck around with an adapter, well, that decides a lot of things for me.
From looking at the pictures this thing appears to be very similar to a P30/P2000 so it will require an adapter for an RMR.

I find that there isn't much difference internally between the various HK slides I've put RMR's on.  The differences are mostly in the profile of the slide and the location of the rear sight dovetail. Some have enough meat behind the dovetail for a new dovetail for a rear sight, others require me to fill the factory dovetail to give enough material.

To directly mount any optic will definitely require the rear dovetail to be filled as the slide can't be milled to the depth of the dovetail due to the safety plunger.  This requires that the slide be refinished after the filler is brazed in place.

In the case of the adapter, the adapter makes up the length of the safety system with a milled spring capture pocket on the underside.

Someone called me today about this model so I may get to handle one directly ao I'll know for certain what can / can't be done.


Thanks for the reply, Mark. Please keep us posted, even though I'll probably be sticking with the P30 line (and thus stuck waiting on Leupold), just because of my desire to have a hammer for AIWB.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

I had the chance to shoot one today. It's a buddy's so I'll have ample opportunity to shoot it until I get mine. Initial impressions are that the trigger was really gritty and stages right before the break. I'm used to the LEM trigger so it's just something I'll have to get used to on this gun. Shooting it back to back with the new Sig P320 I actually prefer the ergos of the 320 over the VP9. The VP9 does not feel like the P30 which is disappointing. One thing I hate that pistol manufacturers do is make the palm swell huge, but keep the "LOP" the same. The VP9 suffers from this as well. The slide charger things have got to go. Not a fan.

As far as shooting goes though - it was fast. Like shooting a PPQ. I think the trigger on the 320 was slightly better, but take it FWIW. I HATE Sigs, so keep this in mind. I do think that once is smooths out it will be the best striker fired trigger out there. The awesome paddle mag release is still there and one of my favorite features of the H&K pistols. The VP9 is the softest shooting 9mm full size pistol I've ever shot. The 320 was really clunky and seemed to jump around a lot. The VP9 tracked easily and quickly. Shooting it was a blast and multiple shots were easily accomplished due to the short movement of the trigger.

Overall I liked it. I'll have to play around with the palm swell. On the P30 I use a med back and large sides. Today it was med all the way around. This will easily blow Glock and (sadly) S&W out of the market. The M&P is still supreme in my eyes because of the grip laser by Crimson Trace. If they release one for the V/P series guns I'll have some serious thinking to do.




------------------------------
HOUSTON, TEXAS/DEC 2003

 

"Never think that you deserve more because of where you work or what you've done."

 -Rob Trivino

Also - the Comp Tac Flatline holster works for these. Tried it out today. Couldn't edit, sorry.

One last thing - accuracy was excellent. Rapid fire at 7 yards had it all within the 2" circle. I stopped and checked the target to make sure I wasn't missing. Sure enough they were all there. I plan to stretch it out to 25 soon to see how it does compared to the P30.

------------------------------
HOUSTON, TEXAS/DEC 2003

 

"Never think that you deserve more because of where you work or what you've done."

 -Rob Trivino

I don't think M&P will be completely blown out of the water...because it has superior ergos and the APEX trigger brings it where it needs to be.  Glock should be worried though...

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

With new guns coming out like the FNH FNS, Walther PPQ, Sig 320, and the VP9 the other guys better take notes. Those aforementioned companies are doing their research and listening to customers. They are the current leaders as far as just the pistol design is concerned. Beretta, Glock, Springfield, etc are going to have to take it up a notch. I think we're going to see the death of the Glock in the near future. Gaston can ETADIK with a little bit of "perfection" sprinkled on top.

Glock is still a viable option only because of the myriad of accessories for it. As far as the pistol itself goes, it's lagging far, far behind.

------------------------------
HOUSTON, TEXAS/DEC 2003

 

"Never think that you deserve more because of where you work or what you've done."

 -Rob Trivino

But as long as they give dirt cheap prices to police departments...they will stick around. More forward-thinking departments are going with the M&P line though. Miami Beach Police just got rid of their Sig P226's and went to M&P .40.

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
But as long as they give dirt cheap prices to police departments...they will stick around. More forward-thinking departments are going with the M&P line though. Miami Beach Police just got rid of their Sig P226's and went to M&P .40.

How cheap is dirt cheap? 

 

I was at my favorite local gunstore and asked about the VP9.  They looked it up on their wholesaler websites (2) and said they were going to get some in when they were available.  The GSG said it'd retail there for about $610 plus tax.  That's a very decent price if this thing lives up to the HK rep for quality.  It'll probably drop even lower after it's been out a while.

 

I strongly suspect that Glock and S&W will cut their prices aggressively on their products if the VP9 gains serious traction in the market place.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

How cheap are Glocks now? I know here in FL, LEO pricing for a Glock 17/19/22 for instance is like $350..so what are departments paying for that..especially in bulk? They're gonna have to cut their prices to stay competitive...because it takes just as much to make a Glock/S&W actually a war-ready gun, as it does for a HK out of the box ready...

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

I picked mine up today. The range test will come this weekend. It does not lock into my Safariland ALS holster made for the P30-I suspect it's that forward protrusion on the rail that does it. It points well and the trigger is nice for a striker fired pistol. It's not quite at my P7M8's level, but it is a really nice striker trigger.  When I get home, I'll slap an X300U on it and see if it'll fit in my Raven Concealment holster for a P30 withan X300U.

 

I look forward to shooting it. I have another one on order from a group buy on HK Pro. If I can get that one in and HD sights for both, I'll take them to CSAT at the end of September for a 2 day pistol course and see what happens.

 

Update: It does not lock all the way into my Raven Concealment P30 holster. It fits nicely in my Safariland 6004 for my H&K 45.

 

Second update: I and a couple guys at the range put about 100 rounds through it this morning. The trigger is as nice as has been advertised. The only Glocks I've shot with triggers like that had been worked on by someone who knew what they were doing.  Accuracy was very good-we were indoors, so we only shot it out to 15 yards. Manipulations were easy-I find myself hitting the magazine release with my middle finger on my strong hand and was able to drop the slide using the levers on either side without issue.  I really want to get the HD's on there and see what i can do with it then. So far, I'm very pleased with the pistol.

 

Third update: HD's are here. I'll get it to my smith tomorrow around lunch and pick it up after the gym.  This weekend, I'll probably put another few hundred rounds through it.

"Hold my beer and watch this"

I'm gonna run mine in October at Miami-Dade SRT school. 3000 rounds in 2.5 weeks? should really see if this bad boy can hold up..

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

SOL,

 

Do you have enough trigger time behind a PPQ to compare the two?  I have a nice limited PPQ that I'm considering selling to replace with a VP9 (my gear, and the rarity of the gun mean I could swap for no money out of pocket or even come out ahead).  Definitely curious to hear about that comparison.

 

It's essentially the same gun, but I used to carry an HK and wouldn't mind going back. 

 

Cheers

Originally Posted by Romeo7:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
But as long as they give dirt cheap prices to police departments...they will stick around. More forward-thinking departments are going with the M&P line though. Miami Beach Police just got rid of their Sig P226's and went to M&P .40.

How cheap is dirt cheap? 

 

I was at my favorite local gunstore and asked about the VP9.  They looked it up on their wholesaler websites (2) and said they were going to get some in when they were available.  The GSG said it'd retail there for about $610 plus tax.  That's a very decent price if this thing lives up to the HK rep for quality.  It'll probably drop even lower after it's been out a while.

 

I strongly suspect that Glock and S&W will cut their prices aggressively on their products if the VP9 gains serious traction in the market place.

While rare, I occasionally reports pop up of Glock providing replacement guns to departments for the "cost of night sights" or in the $150-170 range?  How often this happens I don't know - and I'd suspect Glock is flipping the used guns to outlets, and coming out about even.

 

That's tough to argue with.  However $550-600 is a damn sight closer than $920-930 when someone is looking at the budget. 

Here is a copy of the first review off our Facebook page (hardwiredtacticalshooting):

 

"Well......after picking up our guns from Jackson Armory, our local HK dealer, today was the long awaited VP9 day at the range. All I can say is "WOW!" These things really are the new standard in a striker fired pistol. 
We started with a simple 30 round initiation on some 8" steel at ten yards. Painfully easy. We then jumped right in with the LAPD D Platoon "A " qualification-both Wayne and I shot 98%. I had one called flyer, or it would have been one of the best runs I have had on the course in years. Wayne shot a 5 shot group at ten yards into the NRA logo on our bull targets (photo below of the result). We then jumped in with a Vickers 300. The targets are also shown. This has always been a tough course for me due to all the single hand work. I was down 7, Wayne, only 3. 
We did some 50 yard work on the 8" steel that became boringly easy. Wayne was so bored with ringing the target that he started working one handed. That was not much of an issue, so he switched to support hand only at 50.......shown in the photo, he center whacked the target just after the picture was taken. 
We shot a lot, with a lot of different ammunition. There were no malfunctions of any kind. The only "issue" was losing the left side cocking support on my gun at round #28 (Federal 9mm HST). In a funny way, I was looking at the gun last night thinking that I would like that side removed and flat and the cocking support only on the right side. I just didn't expect it to happen on its own. The test of HK Customer Service......."we'll have a return tag out immediately". Yea, there is that "terrible HK customer service". I think people will find that the one area where HK has done stellar work is "fixing" the customer service side of the house. I have not had an issue with them in the last decade. 
On the positive side, these things flat shoot. Wayne and I have both been gone for the last month or more with other work. We were both very rusty, and I have not shot since our last class. To come in totally cold on a new platform, I could not be happier. The trigger is set up in a way that is almost a duplicate in feel for how I have my Glock triggers modified. I like them and it was easy to get used to. Not too light, not too heavy, and a good feel for a service trigger. Mine had a little but of a gritty feel in reset, but it shot better than a couple of the other VP9's that were out there with another shooter. When it goes back for the cocking support, I ll mention it. The only time I noticed was on the real slow reset when working at 50. "

 

Link for the pictures: 

https://www.facebook.com/pages...ting/289679681133490

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Originally Posted by MH64:

Left side cocking support?

 

Wha??

It has these plastic pieces on each side of the rear part of the slide.

 

Anyways, Nyeti did you have any issues with the slide release? I always have to make sure my thumb is far over on my support hand when shooting Sigs because of the slide release.

Picked up my VP9 this morning. Only put 100 rounds thru it, but it ran like a champ. Still trying to figure out which one of the 27 grip configurations I want to go with. Right now as a southpaw; I'm running medium back strap, medium left panel, and large right panel. Loving this pistol right now. Think I'm going to get a set of Heinie straight 8's for sights, but I'm open to suggestions. 

For those who've bought these as LE duty guns, where's the best option for LE ordering?  Feel free to PM.

Anyone tried an ALS holster for the HK45 to see if that fits?

Blessed be the Lord, my rock

who trains my arms for battle,

who prepares my hands for war.

 

Psalm 144.1

Originally Posted by weaver1032:
For those who've bought these as LE duty guns, where's the best option for LE ordering?  Feel free to PM.

H&K's not doing LE pricing anymore, according to the folks on HK Pro (who know way more than is healthy about all things H&K).  They are also saying that there will be an upcoming program where a LE or whoever else qualifies for the program (.mil) can send in a receipt and credential copies in exchange for some unspecified reward.  My only source on this is HK Pro, so take it for what it's worth.

"Hold my beer and watch this"

I had the chance to put a few mags threw one of these yesterday. It is a very nice pistol that feels great in my hand. The example I shot had the medium blackstrap with the large sides. I shot it back to back with my M&P that has all the APEX trigger upgrades (including the short reset trigger) and that setup made the M&P with a medium blackstrap feel narrow. The trigger is good, very good, better than the stock M&P and Glock triggers by quite a bit (to me) but honestly the APEX upgraded M&P is nicer ...(lighter with a shorter reset). 

I had no problem hitting a full size steel torso at 50 yards with it, I didn't try and shoot groups but it seemed about as accurate as my M&P that has a Storm Lake barrel fitted from the rounds I put on paper.

The charging handle thingys didn't bother me at all but if they were not there I wouldn't miss them. The trigger itself feels wide and I liked it, kind of a lot. The slide release on the ejection side is fitted very well with no rattle like on my duty gun (P2000). The sights on the one I shot were the 3 dot non Tritium versions and aside from not likeing the dots they were fine, I believe the NS version uses the Truglow sights. I think one of the 10-8 sets for the P30 would be perfect for me but the factory ones are plenty useable.

I think that if I was issued a pistol with a std. button mag release I might not be as excited about this gun as I have been really happy with my fancied up M&P's, but, my duty gun has the H&K paddles and having a training gun with the same system is a big plus for me.

Overall if I was starting from scratch and looking for a sidearm this would be it (or an upgraded M&P?). It really just feels amazing in the hand and other than swapping out the sights there is nothing I would do to it. As for dumping a platform you are invested in and going to this...depends...for me, yes, the mag release has value to me but again if I wasn't issued an H&K allready this wouldn't matter. It holds 2 less rounds than a comperable M&P or Glock (although Taylor freelance makes a +5 extention for our BORTaC team that brings it up to 20) and if you put money into thoes platforms they can be made much better than they came out of the factory (this may be a no go for you if your agency will not allow modifications) but for me the feel of this thing is unparalleled.

I just sold my back up M&P but will keep my primary until I get a VP9 (or two) and shoot them for a while.
Hopefully this might help someone who is on the fence and hasn't got to handle one yet...

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

So the question now becomes, can Apex improve the trigger for the VP9 to make it even better. I'm not sure I feel a need to upgrade my VP9, but if there was an upgrade from Apex I'd be damn tempted. All I really want is less initial take up, and no take up on reset. 

If APEX does their magic to the VP9...damn...

The only thing I don't understand about the VP9 is when I put an M&P magazine up next to the VP9 magazine the outside dimentions looked exactly the same...why is the capacity different? 15 rounds is fine and all (my duty mags are only 12) but it seems like the Germans could have engineered a couple more rounds in there..

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

If you want more rounds, you get less spring.  HK mags tend to do very well left loaded for long periods, and they have no issues with changes in the frame when light mounted.  I would prefer a long term reliable magazine over a couple of rounds.  This is ALL give and take.  

 

APEX.....really, already?????  Most are finding the VP9 trigger to be one of the best ever put in a striker pistol, yet here we are.  First, take up is a good thing on a defensive pistol and especially on a L/E pistol.  Reset distance is a learned thing.  I am already dialed in to the VP9 in a very short time.  It is tactile and audible (for the kindergarten learning stage) and pretty easy to figure out.  It's an L/E service pistol with a near perfect L/E service pistol trigger.  Having a zero take up trigger is not a good thing on a service pistol.

 

Accuracy wise, we were zapping an 8" plate at 50 yards with little effort.  DetWD got to the point of doing it support hand only.  The things will shoot.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Hopefully, HK will do a competition variant of the VP9 with a competition trigger.  For now, I think it is a very good street trigger that is workable at the target audience.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Understood on the spring length, I didn't know that's why they did that. It makes sence now. Like I said my duty mags only hold 12 and I don't feel under supplied so 15 is a bonus for me...as for a duty trigger it is heads and shoulders above anything I've ever felt. The thing shoots...I'm getting one...or two.

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

He posted a comparison of an Apex tricked out M&P to a stock VP9. I posted a "what if," that is all. I own a VP9, I like the trigger more than any other striker fired pistol I've shot, but that doesn't mean it can't be better.

 

I didn't say I wanted no take up I said I want a little less.  I also prefer to have reset be at the wall. I just prefer it that way I'm not bad mouthing the VP9. 

 

I shoot it very well with its current trigger, but I won't be using it for duty use I have an issued P220 for that. The VP9 will be a possible G19 replacement for EDC, a range and competition gun. 

 

Edit: I deleted my previous post because I couldn't edit it, so this one is now out of order in the thread. 

KCBRUIN....I was responding to your post that is no longer there.  Did I accidently delete it or did you?  If it was me........I apologize, as sometimes the moderator powers overwhelm my computer skills.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Originally Posted by nyeti:

KCBRUIN....I was responding to your post that is no longer there.  Did I accidently delete it or did you?  If it was me........I apologize, as sometimes the moderator powers overwhelm my computer skills.  

No it was me I posted it, and immediately saw stuff I wanted to edit but couldn't. So I deleted that one and added some. 

 

I hope they release an expert or tactical model with a match trigger, but they never released one for the P30 so I won't get my hopes up.  

 

I'm happy as hell that I actually own a striker fired HK, and that it lives up to everything that this HK fanboy dreamed it would be. 

 

I agree  as a duty weapon it is perfect, except it would need to be a VP45 to even get a second look at my Agency to be an issued weapon. 

Glad I didn't do it on the post.

 

I get a little overly defensive on the trigger due to my participation on other boards that are more pure shooting oriented.  My personal experience on the L/E side gets me a little frustrated on these issues. 

Everyone wants a great trigger.  It helps on pure shooting.  It makes the gun easier to shoot.  The question becomes "how easy do we want L/E guns to shoot.......especially if there is an unknown or non-shoot in front of it"?  What I found in my shootings and among those I have de briefed is that there is very little or no tactile feel of the trigger weight and resistance during the event, but there is a definite feel for the trigger movement.  That is why I actually set my Glocks up with an "anti-skimmer" trigger with more take up than the factory.  I want to feel that trigger movement so I am really aware that I am pressing it and can control that movement.  It's why I like the LEM for a cop trigger.  Reset also needs to be done by movement.  We "learn it" through feel just like the press, but it will be by movement and not feel during a shooting.  The VP9 has a lot of feel to it, and enough movement on both ends to make me happy.  On the reset side, sure it could be shorter and that would be great, but the main thing is that it is consistent, and to me feels about like halfway from the wall to the break and has been easy for me to adjust to so far, and is getting better in dry practice.

I usually tell folks who want "lighter, better triggers" is if they also want that for the worst shooter at their agency?  That is the crux.  That lighter, better trigger would actually help your worst shooters the most, but also get them into the most problems as well.  We are finding that the VP9 is one of those guns that people shoot great out of the box and with very little experience on it (none of us have much time yet), so I would think in time we will really getting them dialed in.  That (to me) would be a better time to talk about any modifications or work.

Hope that makes sense.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Makes sense to me. I have 14 years experience as an LEO, with time on SWAT, and now as a K-9 handler, and Firearms instructor for the Academy. Luckily I have only pulled the trigger once in my career, and that time I was using a USP.45 DA/SA variant. Since you're familiar with HK's I think you'll understand what I mean when I refer to the hammer staging if you pull the trigger to a certain point and then release it. There's a tactile feel in the trigger pull when you hit the staging point. As I pulled the trigger I felt the hammer hit the staging point, and it felt like a gong went off from my trigger finger through my whole body. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but in a way it made me aware that I was pulling the trigger, because in that moment it was more of training and muscle memory taking over, and like you said there was no feel to that very heavy HK DA pull. At that exact moment Mr. Shithead threw his hands up surrendering, not knowing he was fractions of a second from having his chest cavity ventilated. I was told over and over that with the events that led up to that moment that it would've been a good shoot if I'd have finished the pull.  But because I had that DA pull I didn't have to find out so I'm a believer in some travel before break.  

Originally Posted by KCBRUIN:

Makes sense to me. I have 14 years experience as an LEO, with time on SWAT, and now as a K-9 handler, and Firearms instructor for the Academy. Luckily I have only pulled the trigger once in my career, and that time I was using a USP.45 DA/SA variant. Since you're familiar with HK's I think you'll understand what I mean when I refer to the hammer staging if you pull the trigger to a certain point and then release it. There's a tactile feel in the trigger pull when you hit the staging point. As I pulled the trigger I felt the hammer hit the staging point, and it felt like a gong went off from my trigger finger through my whole body. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but in a way it made me aware that I was pulling the trigger, because in that moment it was more of training and muscle memory taking over, and like you said there was no feel to that very heavy HK DA pull. At that exact moment Mr. Shithead threw his hands up surrendering, not knowing he was fractions of a second from having his chest cavity ventilated. I was told over and over that with the events that led up to that moment that it would've been a good shoot if I'd have finished the pull.  But because I had that DA pull I didn't have to find out so I'm a believer in some travel before break.  

I had a very similar situation with a full size USP 45.  During the press with my sights on the shitheads right ear I could actually see the hammer smoothly coming to the rear.  Right before the break, said shitheads face exploded into a fountain of blood and debris where my partners shot in his face had built up a bunch of pressure from a severed carotid.  It was very obvious that my shot was no longer going to be needed.  It too would have been justified if I finished, but it worked out with the crook being dead and no additional complications of an extra .45 in the ear. In that case I was very aware of the trigger movement by feel with visual confirmation of the hammer movement.  In that case the visual input was more memorable than the tactile input. It was an auto-pilot press on an action I had over a 100,000 rounds through.  It was different from the ones where I did actually shoot.  In those cases it was also an auto-pilot press, but there was even less tactile feel and just the sensation of smooth movement.  You never really feel the weight.  These are all good examples of continuing the evaluation process right up to the shot and why it is critical that L/E triggers need to have some good take up to them.  I am aware of at least one very questionable shooting where not having any take up in the trigger was probably a big factor in a bad shoot.  

Those who are shooters are generally more aware of this stuff.  The issue is that general issue guns need to have these characteristics.  Either way, too "good" of a trigger can bite even the best trained folks.  I learned over the years not to obsess over trigger minutia, as you won't really feel it.  Master a good workable trigger and make it auto-pilot so you can worry about being right instead of inconsequential millimeters of travel.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

This topic has drifted to an interesting area, as it relates to triggers and LE guns.

 

I spent a great deal of last fall and winter trying to talk my self out of buying a Walther PPQ. Many people at that time were making the argument that the PPQ's trigger is TOO nice for a LE/Defensive gun. 

 

Those with time shooting the VP9 have all commented on the positive aspects of the trigger. But even so, I was wondering when someone would start talking about Apex making upgrades to the VP9.

 

My LE career started at the beginning of the semi auto phase. I was two recruit classes past being issued a revolver. We went from S&W 5906's to 5946 DAO's, to the M&P9. I have seen the effects of a gun that's easier to shoot for the masses who's only trigger time for the year is when they attend mandated firearms training as it relates to putting rounds on target under stress. I am sold on the striker fired system for this reason. But there is such a thing as too nice/light of a trigger. Some of the reworked M&P guns I've seen people compete with would fall into that category. 

 

My VP9 arrived at my FFL yesterday, and I managed to pick it up on the way into work. As my boss would frown upon test firing a new pistol within the inter-city neighborhoods that I supervise, I have only dry fired it so far. For a Virgin pistol, this trigger is nice. It may not be as light or as crisp as some guns being used in various matches or shooting games. But for a gun designed to be carried in the real world, it's really nice. I can't wait to see how the trigger feels when I smooth it out a bit by firing a could thousand rounds through it. 

 

Personally, I am stuck with carrying a M&P9 for a duty weapon. As we just transitioned to our second issue of the M&P9 last year, I doubt I'll see another issued gun before I retire. But I am at a point in my life where I am looking at life after retirement. For this, I see the VP9 being a strong contender for becoming my daily companion. 

 

I hope the VP9 becomes a series of guns for H&K. I'd really like to see a VP9sk come out to accompany the VP9. 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Originally Posted by KCBRUIN:

We could probably take the posts with detail on trigger's for LE starting with nyeti's, and have a fairly interesting new topic if we merged them into their own new thread. 

Yes, so you can poke fun at the absolutely atrocious NYPD trigger systems for all their issue handguns..yes people..12 lbs..it SUCKS.  I'm glad to no longer have to deal with that...

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

Beat Trash, I think you nailed it with this...

"For a Virgin pistol, this trigger is nice. It may not be as light or as crisp as some guns being used in various matches or shooting games. But for a gun designed to be carried in the real world, it's really nice. I can't wait to see how the trigger feels when I smooth it out a bit by firing a could thousand rounds through it. "

It seems like H&K designed this as a duty gun, a really damn good one. As for my comments that my fancied up M&P has a better trigger, it does, but that's looking at it as a gun for training/gameing. For a duty gun the VP9 seems absolutely ideal. I've taken the slack out of my P2000 trigger quite a few times and I'm glad it was there...having too much of a good thing (trigger) is a valid concern on a work gun and it seems like the VP9 nailed it. It strikes a great balance.

I'm sure there will be tweaks available down the road for it for the gamers to make it more "competitive" or thoes that just want a really high performance blaster. But other than sights to taste it's damn near perfect.

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

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