I'll just drop this here:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

 
Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
Originally Posted by KCBRUIN:

We could probably take the posts with detail on trigger's for LE starting with nyeti's, and have a fairly interesting new topic if we merged them into their own new thread. 

Yes, so you can poke fun at the absolutely atrocious NYPD trigger systems for all their issue handguns..yes people..12 lbs..it SUCKS.  I'm glad to no longer have to deal with that...

 

 
 
The DA pull on my issued 220 is 10.5lbs and I think it's absolutely horrible. I can't imagine 12lbs on every pull for a duty weapon. I hate NY. 
 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by nyeti:

Very good read, thanks for the link. 

Can anyone comment as to instances of failing to lock back on empty magazines and auto-forwarding of the slide during reloads? Those are two issues that I routinely experienced with the P30 LEM. I'm aware that those two situations could be due to my shooting technique but it generally doesn't happen when I'm shooting Glocks or M&Ps.

Originally Posted by shogun187:

Can anyone comment as to instances of failing to lock back on empty magazines and auto-forwarding of the slide during reloads? Those are two issues that I routinely experienced with the P30 LEM. I'm aware that those two situations could be due to my shooting technique but it generally doesn't happen when I'm shooting Glocks or M&Ps.

My well used beater P30 auto forwards pretty regularly.....its a plus in my book.  Many of my high round count guns have done it in the past including SIGs and USP's.  Again, I don't see the negative as long as they always pick up the top round in the magazine, which mine have always done.

The failure to lock the slide back is almost always a thumb placement issue due to the size of the slide release......especially if you are shooting it while carrying other platforms like a Glock or M&P.  I have a very specific grip with my HK's so that I don't have this issue.  With that said, I can shoot the VP 9 with a thumbs forward grip, so I will be trying that.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Nyeti, thanks for the input; I'm direct on my thumb placement being the likely culprit on the failure to lock back. The auto-foward only bothered me when I would carry/use two different platforms on/off duty. I didn't like the idea of getting used to the auto foward since the Glock I carry on duty requires a deliberate attempt to send the slide into battery.

Nyeti,

Not to quibble, but I can think of two different instances SOing a match where the shooter stood there with a dumb look on their face when their gun went click instead of bang because it always auto forwarded and always picked up the first round. In those two cases the dumb look was directed my way at which time I mentioned tap, rack, bang and they got going again. Two other times the shooters were on it. In each case I was told that has never happened, it always picks up a round. Personally, not a fan of it. I have also seen NDs during classes during specific precision drills where the person was running too light a trigger and took up to much slack anticipating the beep. I find a heavier trigger is more accurate for me (4-5lbs) because I can press through. Whereas to light a trigger with to little take up fires to easily as I get on it.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear

"If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston

As for auto forwarding, I've had it happen on almost every semi auto I'v shot over the years. Some more so than others.  It happens a LOT with the M&P series, especially as the gun age through usage.

 

I personally don't rely on it doing the work for me during reloads. But then I do not consider it to be a malfunction. 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Mine is in today.  HK RULES!!!  That is all.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

+1 on the failure to lock back the slide.  While not consistent, it happened relatively often on my P2000 (same large ambi slide levers as the P30 etc.).  Not a big deal as long as you're away that your gun may do it.  It's not an error with the gun so much as a design which increases the likelihood of thumbs kicking it out of place.

 

The VP9 actually looks a little better in this regard.  I'm one of those weird people who like the long ambi levers on the HK models, but the VP9 looks to have shrunk them a bit, which might very well reduce the issue.

 

I've had plenty of handguns auto-forward but never a gun that regularly did it. 

Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
How cheap are Glocks now? I know here in FL, LEO pricing for a Glock 17/19/22 for instance is like $350..so what are departments paying for that..especially in bulk? They're gonna have to cut their prices to stay competitive...because it takes just as much to make a Glock/S&W actually a war-ready gun, as it does for a HK out of the box ready...

I'd love to hear your explanation for this. Glock's need little to nothing out of the box, thus much of their appeal...

 

And LEO pricing is about $400...

Originally Posted by 8th:

Nyeti,

Not to quibble, but I can think of two different instances SOing a match where the shooter stood there with a dumb look on their face when their gun went click instead of bang because it always auto forwarded and always picked up the first round. In those two cases the dumb look was directed my way at which time I mentioned tap, rack, bang and they got going again. Two other times the shooters were on it. In each case I was told that has never happened, it always picks up a round. Personally, not a fan of it. I have also seen NDs during classes during specific precision drills where the person was running too light a trigger and took up to much slack anticipating the beep. I find a heavier trigger is more accurate for me (4-5lbs) because I can press through. Whereas to light a trigger with to little take up fires to easily as I get on it.

I won't comment on "match happenings" because a lot of competitive guys have a thumb staged on the slide release to increase reload speed time, and it doesn't take much to mess this up and get a click instead of a bang.  I have found on my pistols that auto-forward it only happens when I do a hard seated speed reload and its happening after the mag is seated.  At that point if the jarring from the mag seating is enough to bump of the slide stop, then the round will get picked up everytime reliably.  If it is auto-forwarding and not picking up a round, you have another issue that needs to be addressed that is either thumb placement on the slide release, or a mechanical issue where the slide stop is not engaged enough when the gun goes to slide lock and one or both of these issues need to be addressed.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

How long will it be until we see these milled with RMRs I stalled (assuming they haven't yet)? 

I seem to recall there being difficulty with milling the P30 slide, yet I've seen some.  I've been running M&Ps for a while now, but if the VP9 is as good out of the box as an Apex modified M&P, my next purchase might be the HK.  Especially if HK can supply the civy market with spare parts and magazines.

"If you can't do something smart, do something right" -Jayne Cobb

 

Joined: 2010.                 Location: NOVA HELL

Shot one of the VP9 pistols yesterday. My daily carry is a M&P with the apex FST pkg and the RAM installed. It measures a little less than 6lbs on my gauges. I included the above for comparison only. I have a little time on the PPQ and the HK trigger compares favorably with the one I tried. It was not a side by side comparison unfortunately. The HK was easy to shoot, shot point of aim with several types of ammo. I was able to shoot it quickly easily. The only negative to me and it is subjective, it seems to have a bit more muzzle flip than the Walther and my M&P. it was not bad but noticeable. My training partner commented on it as well. I am a regular earth person so YMMV.

 

PS all the above were in 9mm.

Seen plenty of those failures too, but in these cases that wasn't the issue, but won't side track this thread more.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear

"If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston

Originally Posted by Middlelength:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
How cheap are Glocks now? I know here in FL, LEO pricing for a Glock 17/19/22 for instance is like $350..so what are departments paying for that..especially in bulk? They're gonna have to cut their prices to stay competitive...because it takes just as much to make a Glock/S&W actually a war-ready gun, as it does for a HK out of the box ready...

I'd love to hear your explanation for this. Glock's need little to nothing out of the box, thus much of their appeal...

 

And LEO pricing is about $400...

There's a lot better triggers out there, for one.  And the first thing you have to do is replace those shit sights.  Why can't they just come out the box ready, like Sig does for instance?  Glocks have appeal because they're cheap, and police departments swear by them..thus good guys and bad guys alike think they're the shit.  I don't know, maybe I just had a bad introduction..when I changed from a Sig P226, I was forced to change to a Glock 22..I carried that gun for 6 years, and hated it the entire time..maybe if I shot the Glock 17 first, I would like them better?

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
Originally Posted by Middlelength:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
How cheap are Glocks now? I know here in FL, LEO pricing for a Glock 17/19/22 for instance is like $350..so what are departments paying for that..especially in bulk? They're gonna have to cut their prices to stay competitive...because it takes just as much to make a Glock/S&W actually a war-ready gun, as it does for a HK out of the box ready...

I'd love to hear your explanation for this. Glock's need little to nothing out of the box, thus much of their appeal...

 

And LEO pricing is about $400...

There's a lot better triggers out there, for one.  And the first thing you have to do is replace those shit sights.  Why can't they just come out the box ready, like Sig does for instance?  Glocks have appeal because they're cheap, and police departments swear by them..thus good guys and bad guys alike think they're the shit.  I don't know, maybe I just had a bad introduction..when I changed from a Sig P226, I was forced to change to a Glock 22..I carried that gun for 6 years, and hated it the entire time..maybe if I shot the Glock 17 first, I would like them better?

 

I started on the P226 in .40 and kinda liked it, despite the DA/SA. The ones I shot without that stupid trigger were really nice, in my opinion.

 

I was also "forced"(by way of new place of employment) to change to the Glock 22, and DO hate it. 

 

RE: those "Slide Wings" (??), I guess I'm missing something. Nyeti, if you already had one break off.... why didn't they just machine them into the slide? Or only include the one, like someone mentioned, on the off-body side? The user could switch it to the other side if they are a freaky lefty or something.

 

Kinda a cool idea I guess, but if pistols for 100 years haven't needed "extra" stuff to work the slide, not sure why they chose this pistol to try it out.

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

I fully expect we'll see a rash of after-market slide wings...some in metal, some with different profiles, etc.  I don't doubt you'll see some big competition wings as well (this may be the goal straight from HK...to appeal to some competitors.  Good trigger with an ability to install quick and easy slide wings/hooks.

After playing with it for a couple of days, I finally found the time and took my new VP9 to the range today. It took a while for me to decide on the mixture of grip panels for my hand. I ended up with large all around.

 

My wife accompanied me today. My wife who's newer to shooting. She's been out about a dozen times so far. 

 

My wife ended up preferring to shoot a M&P9 full size over the VP9 or the Glock 19 gen4 that I brought along. When dry firing the VP9, she loved how the gun felt in her hands. Shooting it led her to the M&P9

 

I found the VP9 was extremely accurate, once I finally found the grip combo that I needed. I didn't shoot past about 15 yrds today, so I couldn't seriously check on the accuracy of the gun.

 

But after about 400 rds, my finger is sore as hell from the grove in the bottom of the trigger guard. 

 

I need to spend some more time with the VP9. But for now, call me a bit disappointed. It was 100% reliable and accurate enough. And had it been the only gun I brought along today I may have been more impressed. But what it really reminded me was just how soft shooting the M&P9 is. 

 

I really wanted to like this gun. I fully expected it to "knock my socks off" when at the range. I ended up with the feeling of, "Eh"...

 

Not ready to give up on the VP9 just yet though...

 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Pleaseee!!! don't tell me that. I read your posts brother...you're pretty spot on. I have hig hopes for this gun!!

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

As far as the charging supports.  I think it is a good idea that is based on who the gun is getting marketed to.  I am very sure that HK would like this thing to be the next "Fed gun" for acroos the board issue to DHS and others.  These places and most P.D.'s have a ton of both little folks and non-gun folks and they are a help.  

 

To clarify....my left side one did not "break off", it slid out of its track.  I believe it got a little out of the groove when the sights were being installed and it slid out.  I could have bumped the sight over and reinstalled it, but I will wait for a flush unit for the left side of the gun and do it in conjunction with a 10-8 rear sight.

 

The trigger groove.  When I first looked at the HK45's, it bothered me.  Now, I don't even notice it, and tend to shoot the HK45 better than anything.....including my 9's.  I never noticed it at all on the P30's.  I have a feeling that once you build time on the gun your brain will figure out where your finger needs to go on the trigger and it becomes a non issue.  Some folks get them filed smooth.  That was my original plan, but it turns out I have not needed to do it.  I seem to remember it was more of an issue when I was shooting the HK's in .45 and still shooting a Glock 9.  Since going to HK's across the board and moving away from the Glock platform its become a non-issue.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

I have been lightly screwing around all day with my new lovely VP9.  I couldn't leave the house today so I didn't do much besides dry fire as I backed up Jack Bauer. (I'm watching the whole season of 24 today.  By my count I killed about 20 guys so far.  The pistol is accurate for sure.).

 

Anyhow, the HK trigger guard "trench" is often brought up but is actually a problem for few.  If someone didn't point it out, most wouldn't know.  I fell into this trap with my first HK45 when the first thing I did when I got it was ship it to David Bowie for his Vickers package.  He is damn awesome on HKs and he smoothed the shit out of it. (there are pics on LF somewhere).  But in the end, I really didn't need it although it was sweet.

 

It really is an owner by owner basis.  If someone told you not to buy the VP9 because it rubbed their finger, try it for yourself first before making up your mind.

 

Gotta go, Jack needs me...

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

The VP9 trigger trough/trench/whatever you want to call it is less pronounced than that of the P30 or the HK45.

 

With most ammo it isn't noticeable at all when shooting the P30 and less so in the VP9.  Even with +P ammo it isn't noticeable in the VP9.  You have to be firing +P+ before you are aware of it with the VP9.

 

I think it is as Nyeti says that  "once you build time on the gun your brain will figure out where your finger needs to go on the trigger and it becomes a non issue."

I am hoping that Neyti is correct. Time will tell. I have to go qualify today at my agency with all things M&P, M&P9, M&P9c (Official Off-Duty) and Shield (BUG).  And of course the 870, my DD Patrol Rifle and the non-leathal. 

 

I plan on sliding out to the range at lunch and spend some more time with the VP9. I'll have Neyti's words in my head. I'm hoping that I found what I think is my sweet spot as far as grip combinations, that the trigger trough will become a non-issue for me.

 

As far as those charging supports on the slide, after the first magazine I totally forgot they existed until the first time I road the slide stop. When I had to chamber a round from a fresh magazine and felt the charging supports, I suddenly remembered them. They make enough of a difference that they are staying on my gun.

 

BrooklynBacon: Don't loose faith brother...

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

If anyone who picks one up has a PPQ (or one they can borrow) this is what I'm most interested in hearing about.  I bought my PPQ(s) because they were basically a P30 striker-fired gun for far less than $900.

 

Now that the VP9 exists I'm terribly tempted, but it's hard to justify selling the handgun I shoot better than any in the past 10 years I've been shooting.  So if someone has some time I'd love to hear a comparison/review.

 

Cheers.

I managed to shoot my VP9 a bit at lunch today. I found that with the appropriate grip panels for my hand size, the trench in the trigger guard didn't bother my trigger finger any longer. And my accuracy went up to what I was hoping to achieve from this platform after hearing the feedback of others. 

 

Mine is not going anywhere!

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

Got my VP9 earlier this week, shot it yesterday, (managed to scrounge up some ammo, I need to set the press up and run some 9mm off) I just cleaned it and to the range we went..I didn't have a lot of time, as I'm in the middle of a kitchen remodel, I had some failure to feeds, erratic ejection with some of my loads, this wasn't unexpected, the P-30 I had, did the exact same thing when new, So did my CZ P-07. I know it's a ammo problem. Anyway using the medium side panels, and backstrap I managed to rip the center out of a target I'd set up at a paltry 10yds, The trigger is what surprised me the most, I don't shoot to reset,(that is, I don't look for the reset, when letting the trigger out) but with the VP9, it was very easy to do, very easy to find. This made shooting rapidly easy. Muzzle flip was almost non-existent, (probably a lot to do with my loads  4.5gr W-231 than anything) But I remember my PPQ had much more muzzle flip when using the same load, I had 1 failure to lock the slide back, and again that was my fault, I need to keep my thumb off the slide release. So far, I'm impressed, I plan on loading up some ammo with a little stiffer charge, and going farther out, But as far as I'm concerned, the VP9 is a better pistol than the PPQ for me..HK hit this one out of the park...   

I might suggest you either get some factory ammunition, or load up some rounds that simulate the factory spec's. This way when shooting a virgin pistol,  you definitely know if the issue you are having is related to the gun or to the ammunition. 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

I'm sure it's the loads.. the P-30 I had did this and so did my P-07, both straightened themselves out after a couple hundred rounds. Both of these pistols are sprung for European/NATO ammo, and are stiff, a little break-in and the VP9 will be just fine. I fully intend to bump the charge up..    

My VP9's first 500 rounds consisted of WW 115 gr, American Eagle 115 gr, WW 147 gr TMJ and WW Ranger T series 147 gr JHP. With the exception of the Ranger (About 2 magazines of old duty ammo), the round count was about evenly spread through the three other loads. Neither of the 115 loadings are loaded up to NATO spec. 

 

My VP9 didn't require any break in period. The more I shoot this gun, the more impressed I am with it. 

 

 

 

Joined: 4-23-04                                          Location: SW Ohio

So would you carry it on duty? I'm debating on making the changeover, since I'm dumping my Glock. My brass finally got smart, and are letting us carry anything now pretty much.

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

Originally Posted by Beat Trash:

I would carry a VP9 on duty, if I could find a Safariland holster for it.

This. As much of a winner as H&K appears to have with this thing, most agencies run Safariland holsters.  Until you can get a 6378 that will take a WML from one of the big manufacturers, these are going to be a hard sell as LE guns around here.

"Hold my beer and watch this"

So...when are they going to make a Glock 19 sized shooter?  I wished for one with the M&P series...didn't get it (unless you count the .45).

 

I fully believe it's a nice pistol, but the '19 is my EDC - not much chance I'm throwing thousands of dollars at the required VP9s and requisite gear if they don't make the size I use and depend on most often. 

________________________

Daggers Forward - Daggers In!                                 Shape the Fight!

Essayons et Faisons                                                          Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una

I shot 250 rounds through my VP9 yesterday, now up to 700 totals rounds. While I've owned HKs in the past I've been shooting Glocks exclusively (except for some time with a Shield) for several years. For me, the HK is more accurate and easier to shoot well. In fact, I just listed one of my G19s for sale on the board at my range and may also sell a G17 to fund another VP9. I'm using the large inserts all the way around as these deliver the best results although the medium back strap actually feels better during dry fire.

 

My only complaint is that the trigger guard trough beats up my trigger finger during live fire. I know LAV mentioned this issue with the P30 and recommends Bowie Tactical for fixing this problem but I don't want to be without my VP9 for months. Anyone have experience with another Professor of Polymer Permutation that could turn this around quickly? I'd do the work myself if I had a guide such as a YouTube video on how to remove and reinstall the trigger.

 

Also, anyone else have major difficulty installing an X300U? I tried both the U and P inserts before grinding down a spare P insert to fit and it is still extremely tight. Perhaps mine is a sample of one but I'm surprised the fitting between the gun and light isn't perfect as made.

 

BTW, below is a photo taken a few weeks ago of 5 rounds of PMC 115 grain at 25 yards slow fire on an FBI Q target. I was never able to accomplish this with my Glocks. The VP9 makes me look slightly talented.

 

Location: Somewhere between Manteo and Murphy

Originally Posted by BrooklynBacon:
The P30 holsters don't work with them?

My Safariland 6378 for a P30 without the light will not lock in my VP9. I'm betting it's the way the last rib of the rail protrudes out, but I haven't really messed with it. It does fit in my 6004 with a light for my H&K45. I'd really like a 6378, though.

"Hold my beer and watch this"

Yeah I like the 6378 too. I carry my G21 in that now. I don't like the hood. If g-code sold their hood system by itself, I'd get my kydex guy to make me a duty holster. I don't think safariland is gonna make us a holster yet. Needs to gain popularity.

"It is simple....the job, and the system hate you, and you only have you and your fellow officers.......and many of them are questionable." 

Add Reply

Post
Copyright Lightfighter Tactical Forum 2002-2019
×
×
×
×
×