In the midst of my .45 fiasco.......I have been doing my research on my AR quest........and I think I am going to pull the trigger and get an M&P15 OR.........a local shop has a newer one for $815....i will add iron sights (but I have to do some more detective work to find what I want).............
from the list....i have surmised that the only thing (yet it is a big thing) holding back this rifle is the barrel steel and twist......good marks everywhere else......
I have $1000 to spend and this seems to fit the bill........

I figure some of the replies will be to save my money...but this will be a range/backyard/introduce the wife to an AR rifle rifle and also find out what i want in future AR build...

am I headed in the wrong direction or should I "carry on"??

thanks, Andy
Original Post
S&W seems to be learning from their early mistakes i.e. receivers that didn't take PMAGS, failure to pin or dimple the gas block (15T model). My 15T had an alloy gas block that was neither pinned nor dimpled- just held on by the set screws. They are now doing a steel gas block that is pinned. Some of the BCGs were not properly staked depending upon the original contractor. I commend them for making continuous improvements.

_________________________

In yon strait path a thousand
May well be stopped by three.
Now who will stand on either hand,

And keep the bridge with me?

 

Pat Rogers wrote a great article for SWAT magazine about 2 or 3 months ago on the S&W M&P AR15 series. He has had a couple of these rifles as range/test pieces. From what I remember from the article he had over 10,000 rounds through his rifles.

I'm sure if he sees this topic he can offer some advice.

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

We have one through our range program at my side dish job.
This carbine has had THOUSANDs of rounds through it with what could be considered spotty maintainance at best Eek.
We did suffer one blown extractor with no other parts damage.
That was it and it was easily replaced.
My agency has bought three and they have been running fine.
Smith and Wesson are definately getting their shit together (about time) Big Grin.

"Tell me I've led a good life, tell me I'm a good man"

If you haven't already bought, SKIP THE OR MODEL!

It's very limiting in terms of future use. Yes, you can later on attach a sight to that ridiculous front gas block thing, but it is far from the ideal setup.

Stick with the basic model. I keep hearing that the "T" versions will be coming with pinned gas blocks but I have yet to actually see any built this way.

At the very least go with the "R" that comes with no rear sight but at least comes with a standard front sight.

another option to take a look at would be the Charles Daly M4-LE model. Very good list of specs.
quote:
Originally posted by lpd5408:
Pat Rogers wrote a great article for SWAT magazine about 2 or 3 months ago on the S&W M&P AR15 series. He has had a couple of these rifles as range/test pieces. From what I remember from the article he had over 10,000 rounds through his rifles.

I'm sure if he sees this topic he can offer some advice.


Thanks for the kind words.
We put 24,000+ through the 3 guns. As a comparison, we have over 34,000 through three LWRCI guns, and anticipate16k more before we complete this eval.

Back to the M&P.
S&W started of poorly, and took the shortcuts that most of the hobby makers did. To their credit, they moved in the right direction. albeit by a route that made some scratch their heads.
This cost them some large agency business as well as good will. Engineers and market surveys are not always correct.
The receivers that would not accept PMAG's were Stag built lowers, and it was piss poor QC that allowed them through. While Stag should never had let them out, it was S&W responsibility>
I had one of those guns (grrrrr...)

I have a new rifle, made on the standard of a large mid western State police agency. This rifle looks as if it has answered the mail, with the exception of the 1/9 twist barrel.
Note that there is a difference between the LE models and the guns sold in the large chain stores.

We haven't seen any of the CD guns in class yet.
Andy, re: the Charles Daly,

I should have a pretty detailed photo-documentation page on my site in the next couple of days. Haven't gotten to shoot it yet, but at least will be able to document the features and specs.

Hopefully some range time will follow the weekend of the 30th. I plan to stick a 10x on it and see what my meager skills can get out of it with a couple of different ammo types. Unfortunately I won't have the chance to do any "hard use" testing.
quote:
Originally posted by Fail-Safe:
LMT Defender Lower -$330.00

LMT M4 Upper -$485.00

LMT Bolt Carrier Group -$129


For a few dollars more, you can have an all LMT rifle.


I agree, but....

There are hidden "costs" in building your own, or even assembling your own and there can be something to be said for being able to just pick up a complete gun with a complete gun warranty, etc. Especially so for guys new to the platform.
I purchased a 15T back around January or February. I've only put about 500 rounds through it since then due to various distractions, and the fact that the only decent range is 45-60 mins from where I live, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

That being said, it's a great rifle. I got one of the later models, with Troy BUIS and a Troy handguard. Pmags work just fine in it. The only complaint I really have is that the front sight post is VERY loose. Firing at a sustained rate, I have actually noticed the front sight post move a couple centimeters up with the recoil over the course of one magazine. It's an issue I've been meaning to bring up with Troy or S&W.

In retrospect, though, I wish I had saved a little more money and gone for an LWRC build, something with a shorter barrel.
quote:
Originally posted by rob_s:
quote:
Originally posted by Fail-Safe:
LMT Defender Lower -$330.00

LMT M4 Upper -$485.00

LMT Bolt Carrier Group -$129


For a few dollars more, you can have an all LMT rifle.


I agree, but....

There are hidden "costs" in building your own, or even assembling your own and there can be something to be said for being able to just pick up a complete gun with a complete gun warranty, etc. Especially so for guys new to the platform.


Check out the link to the upper. The upper will include a charging handle and handguards.

quote:
G&R Tactical:
M4 Flattop Upper Receiver w/ 1/7 Twist, Chrome-lined Barrel, and M4 barrel extension. Includes a Gas Tube, A2 Flash Suppressor, LMT Charging Handle and M4 (Double Heat Shield) Handguards.


The only thing missing is some form of rear sight, but following the links above will get a person a functioning weapon.
"I don't make things difficult. That's the way they get, all by themselves."
-Detective Martin Riggs
and if you follow the link to my site you'll see that I'm very much in favor of going that route.

But, for many people new to the platform they like the security of buying a complete rifle from a local shop that they know. Yes, doing so may add a little to the cost of the gun, but for some people it's worth it.
Rob
I like your site. Will add it to my rotation of web sites.

Andy
My opinion is buy a Charles Daly rifle like the one pictured on Robs site and go to one of Pat Rogers EAG 3 day classes. You will learn a lot about the AR15 rifle and how to effectively use it. After that you will have the opportunity to post a great Stud Board review.

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

I'm going for one as well. The local shop here has a deal for them going on til the 14th. I'm going to plunk down the change for it to be on "layaway" for a few months so I can pay for it...

"Once everyone gets bored with Egypt's "revolution", it'll beheadings, death to the Zionists and American pigs, and eharmonygoats.com." - Duke

quote:
Originally posted by RealPolitik:
...I got a pretty good deal on mine from a family friend. ...


Would you be willing to share what you have ($) in your 15T with all the Magpul accessories? Our D-M4LE is pictured on our home page with all the Magpul stuff in Flat Dark Earth, just like on your 15T. CD Defense Homepage

We are getting ready to add it to the line and I'm wondering how competitive we're going to be.

Thanks in advance for the info,
Michael
Michael Kassnar, President K.B.I., Inc. Manufacturers, Importers and Distributors of Charles Daly and other fine firearms.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Daly:
quote:
Originally posted by RealPolitik:
...I got a pretty good deal on mine from a family friend. ...


Would you be willing to share what you have ($) in your 15T with all the Magpul accessories? Our D-M4LE is pictured on our home page with all the Magpul stuff in Flat Dark Earth, just like on your 15T. CD Defense Homepage

We are getting ready to add it to the line and I'm wondering how competitive we're going to be.

Thanks in advance for the info,
Michael


PM inbound.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Daly:
We are getting ready to add it to the line and I'm wondering how competitive we're going to be.


I'd guess pretty competitive. The 15T uses a Troy MRF-CX and you guys are using what appears to be a DD Lite 7.0. The DD is a tad more expensive, but the 15T has Troy front and rear sights while yours uses the YHM rear and a FSB, so your sights cost a lot less. The Magpul gear is a wash. Yup, you guys should be pretty competitive in price. Probably even less due to the sights.

Karl

 -------------------------------------

"You should respect his position if for no other reason than he has the power to send loyalists like Chris and JCustis to crush your little rebellion if you get caught seditiously half stepping. " - basicload

Just one of the Shepherd's sheepdogs. Joshua 24:15 Matthew 10:28

quote:
Originally posted by edd1e22:
Just get the 6920.



after processing alot of info.....this is the way to go for me......I'm already 3/4 of the way there with the money.....it's time to pony up and get this Colt......thanks for all the good info...I think the S&W would have fit me fine but this is the one for me!

Andy
quote:
Originally posted by KClapp:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Daly:
We are getting ready to add it to the line and I'm wondering how competitive we're going to be.


I'd guess pretty competitive. The 15T uses a Troy MRF-CX and you guys are using what appears to be a DD Lite 7.0. The DD is a tad more expensive, but the 15T has Troy front and rear sights while yours uses the YHM rear and a FSB, so your sights cost a lot less. The Magpul gear is a wash. Yup, you guys should be pretty competitive in price. Probably even less due to the sights.


Right on the DD but our rear is the Troy, not YHM. Plus our barrel is the 4150 1X7 while the S&W is 4140 1X9.
Michael Kassnar, President K.B.I., Inc. Manufacturers, Importers and Distributors of Charles Daly and other fine firearms.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Daly:
Right on the DD but our rear is the Troy, not YHM. Plus our barrel is the 4150 1X7 while the S&W is 4140 1X9.


So Michael, will that replace the D-M4LX or will it be in addition to it? The 15T seems to be more in line with the M4LX than the new one you're describing in this thread.

Also, when do you think you'll be doing a mid-length? I'm saving one of my CD pre-prod lowers for your mid-length upper.

Karl

 -------------------------------------

"You should respect his position if for no other reason than he has the power to send loyalists like Chris and JCustis to crush your little rebellion if you get caught seditiously half stepping. " - basicload

Just one of the Shepherd's sheepdogs. Joshua 24:15 Matthew 10:28

quote:
Originally posted by KClapp:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Daly:
Right on the DD but our rear is the Troy, not YHM. Plus our barrel is the 4150 1X7 while the S&W is 4140 1X9.


So Michael, will that replace the D-M4LX or will it be in addition to it? The 15T seems to be more in line with the M4LX than the new one you're describing in this thread.

Also, when do you think you'll be doing a mid-length? I'm saving one of my CD pre-prod lowers for your mid-length upper.


Karl,
The Middy's are still a good 2 months away. One will be a lightweight A1 profile and the other will be a government profile. Both 16", 1:7, 4150 (MIL-B-11595E, CrMoV Grade).

The D-M4LX will be discontinued soon as will the D-M4S and the DR-15. We are getting away from most of the 4140 1:9 builds. We see now that we need to compete in the 4150 1:7 market after the extremely successful results we've gotten with our D-M4LE.

Look to our Charles Daly Forum or our websites soon for the announcement of all the new builds. We're just waiting for photos.
Michael Kassnar, President K.B.I., Inc. Manufacturers, Importers and Distributors of Charles Daly and other fine firearms.
My dept just allowed private purchase of rifles. We have a choice between Bushmasters XM-15, the S&W MP 15 series, and the Colt LE models.

Around November 2007, we were told that the S&Ws were having problems with the gas systems. S&W seemed to want to make good, so they had a factory rep at the range swapping out the entire upper receiver assembly. And even to this day, prior to fielding private purchase S&W Rifles, the officers are having their uppers replaced.

We use Win Q3131 5.56 ammo with USGI mags.

I opted for the Colt 6920 and haven't had any problems (yet).

Ain't no party like a working party.


far we have had nothing but problems with S&W rifles. They are all new rifles. At the range we have had alot of failure to extract. It seems to us that the chamber tolerances are to tight. They start to extract better after a few mags.

Today I had a first ever. One of the guys fired a round and it failed to extract. When I looked at the weapon the extractor was in facing the left with the casing still being held in place by the extractor. The cam pin hole allowed for the cam pin to be inserted from the wrong side of the bolt. Four other rifles have the same issue with the cam hole being bored out.

We also have had alot of QC issues with the rifles. So as of right now we had 24 or so rifles and 4 are deadlined.

I would avoid S&W rifles.

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. You will meet them doing various things with resolve, but their interest rarely holds because after the other thing ordinary life is as flat as the taste of wine when the taste buds have been burned off your tongue." -Ernest Hemingway

What is the serial # range of these rifles?
Police agency?
Notify $&W yet?

Re the bolt. One end of the cam pin hole should be swaged to prevent the cam from being assembled backwards.
We have seen this on an LMT as well.

So my question is this. Did the guns come from the factory like this, or after they were assigned to the troops?
95% of our issued M4's here are S&W (the others are Bushhamster).

The 1:9 bbls are a problem - for they won't work with M856 tracer, nor Mk262 - mind you we have Noveske SAM's for that.

My biggest issue with S&W is the bbl's

______________________________

Kevin S. Boland

Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

I just always ASSumed that S&W was after the LE market and that's why they went with the 1:9 since many agencies appear to use the 55 grain ammo, and 62 at best. Not that the 1:7 won't work on this, but too many people over the years seem to have bought into the (bushmaster, I believe) hype that 1:9 is the best overall twist. At least S&W seems to have forgone the other half of that marketing campaign wherein the HBAR was touted as being the best thing to have as well.

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